Thread Tools
Old March 29, 2002, 12:23   #31
Kropotkin
Emperor
 
Kropotkin's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:19
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Ivory tower
Posts: 3,511
Well US shouldn't be blamed for their Taliban laws, should they?
__________________
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Schopenhauer
In GAIS we trust!
Kropotkin is offline  
Old March 29, 2002, 12:24   #32
DanS
Apolytoners Hall of FameApolyCon 06 Participants
Deity
 
DanS's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Not your daddy's Benjamins
Posts: 10,737
I think we need to make a distinction between political crimes and other crimes when we talk about regimes such as China's.

The US doesn't put people to death or torture, etc. for political positions that they hold, but rather for acts that do or are conspiring to do. I think the laws themselves would be acceptable in any country. China does otherwise, where these distinctions aren't made.

France has a legitimate interest here. They can and should lobby hard for their position. But realistically, as our system is structured, the lobbying is probably not going to be effective. So France has to make a hard choice of whether the common interest is served by cooperating with American law enforcement officials or not. France is in a tough position, because they have competing interests here.
__________________
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
DanS is offline  
Old March 29, 2002, 12:27   #33
Roland
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Roland's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Auf'm Jahrmarkt :(
Posts: 5,503
Quote:
Originally posted by DanS
The US doesn't put people to death or torture, etc. for political positions that they hold, but rather for acts that do or are conspiring to do.
Now there's an interesting quote....
Roland is offline  
Old March 29, 2002, 12:31   #34
Bereta_Eder
Settler
 
Bereta_Eder's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:19
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 65,535
Quote:
Originally posted by DanS
The US doesn't put people to death or torture, etc. for political positions that they hold, but rather for acts that do or are conspiring to do.
No. Also for political positions.
Bereta_Eder is offline  
Old March 29, 2002, 12:34   #35
Dauphin
Civilization IV PBEMPolyCast Team
Deity
 
Dauphin's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Seouenaca, Cantium
Posts: 12,426
Quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc


OK, if the American was assured of a fair trial, you can certainly feel free to remind me of my statement.
Whilst I don't doubt the integrity of the US judicial system, how can we be sure that this man will have a fair trial? The fact that many are calling for the DP or calling for the DP not to be used, before the trial has begun makes me think that many presume him guilty to begin with. Unintentional prejudices exist given the very nature of the crime that was commited on 11/9 (9/11 as you would say).
__________________
"Everybody knows you never go full retard. You went full retard man. Never go full retard"
Dauphin is offline  
Old March 29, 2002, 12:37   #36
DinoDoc
Civilization II Democracy GameApolytoners Hall of Fame
Deity
 
DinoDoc's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Underwater no one can hear sharks scream
Posts: 11,096
Quote:
Originally posted by Kropotkin
Well US shouldn't be blamed for their Taliban laws, should they?
Stop being purposefully absurd.

Roland: No, but France has a legitimite interest in the case from consular protection. What's the problem with that ?

The problem is that the right to consular protection only allows a State to defend the rights of thier citizens. No allegation that Moussaoui's are being violated has been made in any of France's threats or lobbying efforts.
DinoDoc is offline  
Old March 29, 2002, 12:39   #37
Kropotkin
Emperor
 
Kropotkin's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:19
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Ivory tower
Posts: 3,511
Quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Stop being purposefully absurd.
Sorry, It's not me being absurd but life itself
__________________
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Schopenhauer
In GAIS we trust!
Kropotkin is offline  
Old March 29, 2002, 13:06   #38
ZoboZeWarrior
King
 
ZoboZeWarrior's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: of anonym losers ... :[
Posts: 1,354
Personnaly I don't care about this guy. I choose his life and have to face to the consequence.

What I doubt, that he will correctly trialed. What I think, You will trial him and then execute him. If you don't understand what is wrong is the previous sentence, nobody can help you.

Then if some people in France think that they have the right to prevent the death penalty for this guy, wtf ?

Such thread title shows only a sad picture of a conceited and self-sufficient USA.
__________________
Zobo Ze Warrior
--
Your brain is your worst enemy!
ZoboZeWarrior is offline  
Old March 29, 2002, 13:09   #39
Bereta_Eder
Settler
 
Bereta_Eder's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:19
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 65,535
Quote:
Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior
Such thread title shows only a sad picture of a conceited and self-sufficient USA.
I would like to be able to say it's just Dinodoc but...
Bereta_Eder is offline  
Old March 29, 2002, 14:06   #40
Kyle
Prince
 
Kyle's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Evil and I'm also a Capitalist
Posts: 964
Quote:
Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin


Whilst I don't doubt the integrity of the US judicial system, how can we be sure that this man will have a fair trial? The fact that many are calling for the DP or calling for the DP not to be used, before the trial has begun makes me think that many presume him guilty to begin with. Unintentional prejudices exist given the very nature of the crime that was commited on 11/9 (9/11 as you would say).

No, they're saying what the punishment will be if he is convicted. The same thing that happens with all prosecutions.
__________________
"Let us kill the English! Their concept of individual rights could undermine the power of our beloved tyrants!"

~Lisa as Jeanne d'Arc
Kyle is offline  
Old March 29, 2002, 14:22   #41
Dauphin
Civilization IV PBEMPolyCast Team
Deity
 
Dauphin's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Seouenaca, Cantium
Posts: 12,426
Surely that decision should be made after the facts are presented and his involvement known? Normally the nature of the crime (rather than the charge) as presented at trial would prescribe the punishment, wouldn't it?

So how can the punishment be decided before the facts are known unless people assume they know them already. Its not as simple as Conspirator = DP, Non-conspirator = freedom as people seem to be saying. Is there no middle ground where he was a minor participant and thus guilty of acrime but DP woudl be an overkill (forgive the apparent pun).

No-one has even mentioned how many and what charges are being presented, just what punishment is due!!!
__________________
"Everybody knows you never go full retard. You went full retard man. Never go full retard"
Dauphin is offline  
Old March 29, 2002, 15:06   #42
Kyle
Prince
 
Kyle's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Evil and I'm also a Capitalist
Posts: 964
Quote:
Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
Surely that decision should be made after the facts are presented and his involvement known? Normally the nature of the crime (rather than the charge) as presented at trial would prescribe the punishment, wouldn't it?

Well, no. Upon conviction, they go to a penalty phase. The jury hears arguments from the prosecution as to what they want the punishment to be. The defense does their thing. Usually, there's at least two choices for the penalty (the Andrea Yates trial for example, the one who drowned her children. They could've given her the death penalty or life in prision). The jury then weighs the crime and decides the penalty.


If you're charged with first degree murder, they're either going to push for the DP or life in prision. It's known before hand; this is no different.


But, just because they ask for the death penalty, doesn't mean they're going to get it.
__________________
"Let us kill the English! Their concept of individual rights could undermine the power of our beloved tyrants!"

~Lisa as Jeanne d'Arc
Kyle is offline  
Old March 29, 2002, 15:16   #43
Dauphin
Civilization IV PBEMPolyCast Team
Deity
 
Dauphin's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Seouenaca, Cantium
Posts: 12,426
Quote:
The jury then weighs the crime and decides the penalty.
But they would decide based on the particular circumstances, not the blanket statement of the crime of "X". Why then are people pushing for the DP before the details of involvement are known.

Do prosecutors normally push for a sentence before they have reviewed all the evidence. In this case they obviously don't have all the evidence- the French have the a large amount of evidence that they are withholding at the present time.
__________________
"Everybody knows you never go full retard. You went full retard man. Never go full retard"
Dauphin is offline  
Old March 29, 2002, 15:33   #44
Saint Marcus
Civilization II MultiplayerCivilization III Multiplayer
King
 
Saint Marcus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Scio Me Nihil Scire
Posts: 2,532
if france refuse to disclose any evidence regarding the alleged crimes commited by the guy, the US can't convict him in a fair trial. Seems the US has two options. Either make sure the guy doesn't get executed if convicted, or refuse to give the guy a fair trial.
__________________
Quod Me Nutrit Me Destruit
Saint Marcus is offline  
Old March 29, 2002, 16:13   #45
Kyle
Prince
 
Kyle's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Evil and I'm also a Capitalist
Posts: 964
Quote:
Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
Quote:
The jury then weighs the crime and decides the penalty.
But they would decide based on the particular circumstances, not the blanket statement of the crime of "X". Why then are people pushing for the DP before the details of involvement are known.

Do prosecutors normally push for a sentence before they have reviewed all the evidence. In this case they obviously don't have all the evidence- the French have the a large amount of evidence that they are withholding at the present time.

Well yeah. They have prosecutorial evidence, the whole reason they're bringing charges up. Surely you've seen any number of the US cop shows (Homicide, NYPD Blue, Law and Order)...?

When the defense presents their evidence, they may decide to change the sentence they are going after.



Quote:
if france refuse to disclose any evidence regarding the alleged crimes commited by the guy, the US can't convict him in a fair trial. Seems the US has two options. Either make sure the guy doesn't get executed if convicted, or refuse to give the guy a fair trial.
Well of course, the US couldn't possibly have their own evidence to convict him with.

They must feel they have very good evidence, otherwise they wouldn't be going for the DP.
__________________
"Let us kill the English! Their concept of individual rights could undermine the power of our beloved tyrants!"

~Lisa as Jeanne d'Arc
Kyle is offline  
Old March 29, 2002, 16:27   #46
Imran Siddiqui
staff
Apolytoners Hall of FameAge of Nations TeamPolyCast Team
 
Imran Siddiqui's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: on the corner of Peachtree and Peachtree
Posts: 30,698
Quote:
Next time China wants to try an American for a capital crime, and wants to invoke the DP I will remind you of that statement.
Exactly.

And you people have wierd ideas about the Singapore caining. All I remember is outrage from Americans that this poor Ami boy was being cained for something so small.

--

Anyway, SD: Usually in the US, the prosecution decides (before the case) what the maximum penalty they will push for if the person is convicted. So, the prosecution can decide to push for 2-5 years in prision rather than 2 years and community service, in the case of sexual assualt, say.
__________________
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
Imran Siddiqui is offline  
Old March 29, 2002, 16:40   #47
Felch
Civilization III Democracy Game
Emperor
 
Felch's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Germantown, Maryland
Posts: 3,470
Euros, they hate us and rate us because they ain't us.

I'm opposed to the death penalty, but mostly because I think that there are harsher ways of dealing with people, and because I view life as being a sacred right.

Still, this is just another example of how the French are our most useless ally/subject state.
Felch is offline  
Old March 29, 2002, 17:11   #48
Saint Marcus
Civilization II MultiplayerCivilization III Multiplayer
King
 
Saint Marcus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Scio Me Nihil Scire
Posts: 2,532
Quote:
Well of course, the US couldn't possibly have their own evidence to convict him with.
frankly, they don't. all the crucial evidence in this case in the hands of the french authorities.
__________________
Quod Me Nutrit Me Destruit
Saint Marcus is offline  
Old March 29, 2002, 17:45   #49
Paul Hanson
King
 
Paul Hanson's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Dilbert
Posts: 1,839
Quote:
Originally posted by Felch X
Euros, they hate us and rate us because they ain't us.
Boy, you hit the nail right on the head with that one, didn't you?
__________________
"Paul Hanson, you should give Gibraltar back to the Spanish" - Paiktis, dramatically over-estimating my influence in diplomatic circles.

Eyewerks - you know you want to visit. No really, you do. Go on, click me.
Paul Hanson is offline  
Old March 29, 2002, 18:12   #50
faded glory
Civilization II Multiplayer
King
 
faded glory's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Fascist party of apolyton.
Posts: 1,405
If france is against the DP. Great, then they have the right to not do it. But they dont have the right to tell us we cant. Thats just meddling in things thats none of there (frances) business.
faded glory is offline  
Old March 29, 2002, 20:20   #51
Evil_Eric_4
Warlord
 
Local Time: 17:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 101
perhaps we should guillotine him.

That seems appropriate for a Frenchman.

Maybe France wont mind so much then(not that we care what the French want).

The hypocracy , oh the hypocracy.
__________________
Die-Bin Laden-die
Evil_Eric_4 is offline  
Old March 29, 2002, 20:38   #52
TCO
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
TCO's Avatar
 
Local Time: 12:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 8,057
Quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Quote:
Next time China wants to try an American for a capital crime, and wants to invoke the DP I will remind you of that statement.
Exactly.

And you people have wierd ideas about the Singapore caining. All I remember is outrage from Americans that this poor Ami boy was being cained for something so small.
Beat his ass and then let's use the cane on some other young punks. Everybody I know thought it sounded like a good way to handle a delinquent.
TCO is offline  
Old March 29, 2002, 20:49   #53
Tuberski
 
Tuberski's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: ACK!! PPHHHHTTBBBTTTT!!!
Posts: 7,022
Quote:
Originally posted by Saint Marcus


frankly, they don't. all the crucial evidence in this case in the hands of the french authorities.
If you knew anything about legal procedure, you would be fairly smart to have evidence BEFORE you charge somebody. If you don't you will be laughed out of the courthouse.

France has a perfect right to lobby for his life, just as the US has a perfect right to say NO.

And you can tell all the evidence is in the hands of the french? how?

Because, as usual, ther hands are over their heads?

__________________
"I think Bigfoot is blurry, that's the problem. It's not the photographer's fault. Bigfoot is blurry, and that's extra scary to me. There's a large out of focus monster roaming the countryside. Look out, he's fuzzy, let's get out of here."
Tuberski is offline  
Old March 29, 2002, 21:02   #54
Kropotkin
Emperor
 
Kropotkin's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:19
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Ivory tower
Posts: 3,511
Quote:
Originally posted by Felch X
Euros, they hate us and rate us because they ain't us.
Oh an american that uses his own country as a shield to protect his own insecurity, what a novel idea.
__________________
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Schopenhauer
In GAIS we trust!
Kropotkin is offline  
Old March 29, 2002, 21:06   #55
WhiteElephants
King
 
WhiteElephants's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Toledo Ohio
Posts: 1,074
Quote:
Originally posted by Evil_Eric_4
perhaps we should guillotine him.

That seems appropriate for a Frenchman.


Off off-topic here, but I remeber thinking that brat should get the cane and I imagine the only reason anyone cared was because he was rich and white as I don't recall any human rights activists sobbing over some Singaporian (?) kid getting the cane.

And on a more personal note... There's something about the French that just... well... annoys me. It's not like I've ever been there, but the first word that comes to mind when I think of the French is annoying. Cultural conditioning perhaps? Sorry Zobe. Maybe they're like the guy in class that everyone likes to pick on in a sort of we-like-you-so-we-pick-on-you sort of way? Help me out here folks.

:waiting for the annoying American response:
WhiteElephants is offline  
Old March 29, 2002, 22:03   #56
The Mad Monk
Emperor
 
The Mad Monk's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Flyover Country
Posts: 4,659
The fact of the matter is that while American media, international human rights organizations and more than a few celebrities tried to turn it into a "don't beat the poor American" circus, the American public simply wasn't buying it.
__________________
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
The Mad Monk is offline  
Old March 29, 2002, 22:20   #57
General Ludd
NationStates
Emperor
 
General Ludd's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Minion of the Dominion
Posts: 4,607
Quote:
Originally posted by WhiteElephants
And on a more personal note... There's something about the French that just... well... annoys me. It's not like I've ever been there, but the first word that comes to mind when I think of the French is annoying. Cultural conditioning perhaps? Sorry Zobe. Maybe they're like the guy in class that everyone likes to pick on in a sort of we-like-you-so-we-pick-on-you sort of way? Help me out here folks.
Soldiers from the USA and common wealth who where fighting in europe during the world wars wanted someone to blame for their misery, and france (who they where defending/liberating) was a popular choice. It's spiraled out from there becoming one of those "cool to hate" things.


In other words, it's typical nationalist bull crap.
__________________
Rethink Refuse Reduce Reuse

Do It Ourselves
General Ludd is offline  
Old March 29, 2002, 23:48   #58
WhiteElephants
King
 
WhiteElephants's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Toledo Ohio
Posts: 1,074
Quote:
Originally posted by Osweld

Soldiers from the USA and common wealth who where fighting in europe during the world wars wanted someone to blame for their misery, and france (who they where defending/liberating) was a popular choice. It's spiraled out from there becoming one of those "cool to hate" things.


In other words, it's typical nationalist bull crap.
Well, they've certainly gotten their nose bloodied more than once in that long forgotten 20th century. Let's hope this century is a bit more painless for those guys, eh?
WhiteElephants is offline  
Old March 30, 2002, 02:04   #59
DinoDoc
Civilization II Democracy GameApolytoners Hall of Fame
Deity
 
DinoDoc's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Underwater no one can hear sharks scream
Posts: 11,096
Quote:
Originally posted by Saint Marcus
if france refuse to disclose any evidence regarding the alleged crimes commited by the guy, the US can't convict him in a fair trial.
Why is that? Don't you don't think that the evidence that we get from Germany and Malaysia might be able to convict him?
DinoDoc is offline  
Old March 30, 2002, 18:12   #60
The Mad Monk
Emperor
 
The Mad Monk's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Flyover Country
Posts: 4,659
I heard an interesting analysis on this from Ron Kuby yesterday. Apparently, one reson a prosecutor would want to say he is going for capital punishment is that the court would then select a Capital Case Jury. When a jury for a capital case is selected, prospective jurors may be removed if they have anti-death penalty views; this is because they may allow these views to color their judgement on the guilt or innocence of the defendant. One result of this is that persons with socially liberal POVs get knocked off of the jury, increasing the number of socially conservative (and more likely to convict on the same evidence) jurors.

Last edited by The Mad Monk; March 30, 2002 at 18:30.
The Mad Monk is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 18:19.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team