On the Utility and Use of Armies - Page 5

Theseus · August 7, 2002, 15:10

So I've earned the steven8r Institute "Good Armykeeping Seal of Approval?"

Cool.

Seriously, thanks.

DeepO · August 22, 2002, 20:47

After deiscussing the use of Mixed Unit Armies with you in How do Armies handle damage? thread, I believe this thread needs a bump of honor. Thanks Theseus for the superb suggestions!

DeepO

Theseus · August 22, 2002, 21:10

Thank you, DeepO.

Not just the complement... I've been thinking about the Cav / MI combo all afternoon and evening. It may be overkill in SP (seriously, the AI can't handle a stack of 20 Tanks to begin with, much less covered by a 19 hp MI-led Army), but in MP this'll be standard in late game wars (I think).

bretwalda · August 24, 2002, 07:58

It might be that my memory elludes me, but I think it is documented somewhere that you can't get more than 1 GL from any given elite unit? Maybe it is only so in the more recent patches?

Quote:

Originally posted by DrFell
Playing today as Japan on deity, the same elite horseman managed to generate 3 GLs in about 5 combats. That's the best I've ever seen, I'd gone all out military and by about 500BC had 3 wonders (Forbidden Palace, Sun Tzus, and Great Library). So to all you who aren't getting GLs - you must really be doing something wrong! Early combat seems to generate almost a guaranteed early leader for the palace, and sometimes you get bonuses like these.

Ironikinit · August 24, 2002, 15:43

Heh. Oops.

Very educational thread. I've always liked sword armies... sort of hate the idea of leaving an open slot, but then it's not so key with swordsmen. Wish I had more time to play so I could try out the ideas here.

Theseus · August 24, 2002, 17:41

bretwalda,

I would imagine DrFell's post was from a while ago, before Firaxis confirmed that you can only get 1 per elite, and before there was any way to track elites*.

BTW, you know that after you upgrade an elite*, it resets to a vet, and then can be promoted and used to generate another GL.

War Elephant · September 24, 2002, 20:11

Really nice thread. I tell ya. Leaders. Can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em. Destined to go down as one of the great pavlovian computer game rewards.

I'm not a statistician but just started recording Leader results brute force approx. 8-10 games ago. Then I read here that there's a suspicion that beating a higher defense strength is a factor and I suspected as much myself, having observed such anecdotally.

My results:
15 Leaders in 393 wins without HE. (.038)
5 Leaders in 55 wins with HE. (.090)

I had been having a noticable dry streak lately so the without-HE number is probably low. And I know 55 is not enough of a sample for the with-HE number so that may be a tick low too. I'm roughing it out as 10 percent chance to get one with Heroic Epic and 5 percent without. Thinking of it a doubling your chances with HE and it starts looking good, especially with that good culture for a small wonder. And of course, the more you fight, the more the HE is a benefit.

Just started a spreadsheet to keep more detailed stats -- which unit type, hit points, terrain, attacker or defender, etc. We'll see how it goes.

I alternate Monarch between Emperor games, playing EVERY CIV in order. I go back and forth on armies and how to use the early GLs. I'm a building type but without the patience to finesse the diplomacy necessary (Plus I hate giving or trading techs.) And I'm still somewhat spoilt by the ol' ALL MONGOL strategy of CIV I. (Civ 2 and Call to Power didn't do anything for me.) So I play a kind of tweener game and have won a few at Monarch and two at Emperor. (Tried one diety game. Maybe some other time.) I have used armies to good effect as nutcrackers and choke point guards.

The concepts in this thread deserve exploration, especially the mixed unit ideas. I'd never even CONSIDERED watering a later unit down with old ones, but now I see some possibilities. Especially after when the game first came out and the general initial reaction seemed to be that armies were worthless.

And yes, the question, can army victories generate Leaders? I have never seen it. I suspect not. Army passengers get promoted but I have seen no indication of which specific one is attacking. I suspect the leader routine (Watch it churn. Ahhhh.) is attached to a unit result, since a leader without a passenger behaves the same as a non-combat unit. Like a scout, if attacked it folds.

Right now I'm working on a kind of bastion strategy. (Use workers to fortify mountain-to-mountain and drive into enemy territory near a friendly town with a barracks.) Armies might come in handy.

A glorious way to burn time, yah.

vmxa1 · September 25, 2002, 00:21

Armies can not generate leaders as reported by Firaxis ad I have never seen it done either. I have started to make more armies in order to get the Pentagon and boost to 4 units. This allows one army to sit on a good size city and quell resisters and discourage counter attacking. This is very useful to me in late game as an Army of MechINf will hold a city against any moderate attack, if the AI will even attempt to attack it, often they stay away from armies. An army of modern armor can defeat even forted mechs in a metro, so if your arties can't be used they can. I am getting to like them more and more.

ducki · November 7, 2002, 00:37

Nevermind. Should have read to the end before posting a question.

twilight · November 12, 2002, 18:29

Real interesting. I always hated armies, but now I will think over my own tactics.

BTW: Some had written their tactics to use Elite very careful. Did you know this was one of the main tactics of the Romans? They had three catergories of Legionaries in each Legion. The recruits standing in the first lines, there they could train on living objects (ahem). If unsusccessful or tired the next line attacks, while the recruits went behind them, that would be the veterans in Civ. The last line were the Elite, only used for the last crush or the last chance in the battle (or producing great centurios ;-)

ducki · November 12, 2002, 18:54

Here's a question about armies...
Cost.

Assume you have a 3 unit Army.
How much does it cost to upkeep (assume no "free" units)?
Is an army 1 unit, so 1 gpt?
Or is it, actually 4 units - army + 3 units inside, so 4gpt?
Or, finally, is the army itself free and you merely continue to pay the 3 gpt for the 3 units?

If all the units in an army just count as a single unit, I'm definitely going to start making an army with my first leader and using more armies to save money.
If it's an army+the units, then you are actually paying more to have the army than to have the units.

Curious.
Anyone know?

Theseus · November 12, 2002, 19:27

I'm pretty sure you pay for everything individually.

vmxa1 · November 12, 2002, 19:29

twilight yes and those tactics worked quite well for Rome for a long time.
ducki, I do not know the answer as by the time I have some armies I no longer concern myself with cost. Look at the advisor when you get ready to make one see what if anything changes for the maint. Let me knoiw if you see it.

ducki · November 13, 2002, 14:11

It might be a while before I generate a leader, but I'll try to remember that.

Arrian · November 13, 2002, 15:52

I'm pretty sure you get charged for 4 units if you have an army with 3 units in it: 1gpt for the army shell itself, and 1 each for the units inside.

-Arrian

vmxa1 · November 13, 2002, 19:36

That would make sense.

Konquest02 · November 13, 2002, 22:17

Yes, and if you look in your military advisor screen, there is a row dedicated only for armies. It is a good clue for armies having to get paid as anybody else!

--Kon--

Theseus · September 22, 2003, 21:47

I thought this was an interesting screenshot... take a quick look and then come back up to the text.

First, a little background. This is from MZOBC4. My first IC invasion was of the peninsula NE of Carthage, taken from Japan with Berserks. Next, I did a little Berserk pruning / razng of eastern Carthaginian cities, just to slow them down (being the KAI of the game).

I razed the crap outta Egypt and Babs on the north central continent, delivering respective coups de grace with Knights and Cavs.

I penetrated the juicy core of Carthage with Cavs, capturing all those lux tiles and cutting Hannibal in half (and getting my culure within two tiles of Carthage... more on that later).

Interesting side note: While it looks like there is an isthmus connecting the Carth continent on the north central one, there is not. I've got the sea lane blocked; more interesting however, is that I used a GL to move my Palace to the southern of those two cities!! Surrounded by water, basically, but it made sense to me for those two continents, and actually worked out pretty well.

OK, with all that said, the reason I posted this in this thread:

Look at my forward position into the heart of Carthage. This is pretty typical for me (when I am not getting my ass kicked, thanks AU 209!).

Of the four forward cities other than Helsinki, each has an Infantry+3xGuerilla Army and other assorted units (Infantry, Arty, Fighters, Tanks, etc.). Helsinki is on hills, so it gets the weakest of my defensive Armies, Infantry+2xMusket+elite Berserk*, and the same assortment of supporting units. The hill at Svolvaer11 is very much a weak point, and actually gets the strongest of my Armies, 4xInfantry.

God, I love Armies.

If you hadn't noticed, at this point of the game I am in, uh preparation mode.

Konquest02 · September 22, 2003, 21:58

Whoa! I can't wait to see your complete AAR, Theseus! It looks as you're gonna win, but you will deserve that win..

Panag · September 23, 2003, 16:59

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
Armies can not generate leaders as reported by Firaxis ad I have never seen it done either. I have started to make more armies in order to get the Pentagon and boost to 4 units. This allows one army to sit on a good size city and quell resisters and discourage counter attacking. This is very useful to me in late game as an Army of MechINf will hold a city against any moderate attack, if the AI will even attempt to attack it, often they stay away from armies. An army of modern armor can defeat even forted mechs in a metro, so if your arties can't be used they can. I am getting to like them more and more.

hi ,

armies used to generate them , with version 1.02 , .........

as for the armies sitting in cities to do some " crowdcontrol " , well if the city turns over , thats one heck of an investment lost , .......

have a nice day

realpolitic · September 23, 2003, 18:50

The use of armies to instead of WoWs seems incredulous.My first army is usally reseved for an FP, which will probably increase my shields & gold by at least 50%. Then happiness improvements. I delay my HE because over 48 elite battles

w/o HE
16 battles - 1st Wonder
32 battles - 2nd Wonder
48 battles - 3rd Wonder
64 battles - 4th Wonder

w HE
16 battles - HE
28 battles - 1st Wonder
40 battles - 2nd Wonder
52 battles - 3rd Wonder
64 battles - 4th Wonder

That's a long payback period!

Also I often wait before I build barracks - nonmil civs can optimise their intial advantage that way.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=73992

realpolitic · September 23, 2003, 18:52

But in not building barracks, it does take longer to get elietes and GLs.

vmxa1 · September 23, 2003, 19:04

Quote:

Originally posted by panag

hi ,

armies used to generate them , with version 1.02 , .........

as for the armies sitting in cities to do some " crowdcontrol " , well if the city turns over , thats one heck of an investment lost , .......

have a nice day

I see no evidence that your statement is correct. No patch address this issue and I say again, I never saw it or heard anyone say they had such an occurrence.

Any time a city flips you have lost a large investment. I do not recall any cities flipping with an army in it. So all in all it seems like a reasonable plan.

Seeing your post usually spoils my day.

Theseus · September 23, 2003, 22:35

I do not believe that Armies prevent flipping...

But panag, do those look like Carthaginian city names?

AND, given that I am in Carthage's core, and Carthage (the city itself) is the world champ in GWs... HOW'S MY CULTURE??!!

This game was a LOT of fun till I got mad about my Marine / Berserk Armies not working.

@realpolitic: Trust me, GWs and some SWs always come first. Berserks are insane GL generators.... 6 attack when most AI civs are at 2 and 3 defense... and, while I don;t know for sure, I believe many of the defense modifiers are not applied against an amphib attack.

Panag · September 27, 2003, 17:53

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1

I see no evidence that your statement is correct. No patch address this issue and I say again, I never saw it or heard anyone say they had such an occurrence.

Any time a city flips you have lost a large investment. I do not recall any cities flipping with an army in it. So all in all it seems like a reasonable plan.

Seeing your post usually spoils my day.

well if you would look a bit further you would find it

but then again there are some people who are more intrested in trying to flame someone then the read the messages , ......

Panag · September 27, 2003, 17:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus
I do not believe that Armies prevent flipping...

But panag, do those look like Carthaginian city names?

AND, given that I am in Carthage's core, and Carthage (the city itself) is the world champ in GWs... HOW'S MY CULTURE??!!

This game was a LOT of fun till I got mad about my Marine / Berserk Armies not working.

@realpolitic: Trust me, GWs and some SWs always come first. Berserks are insane GL generators.... 6 attack when most AI civs are at 2 and 3 defense... and, while I don;t know for sure, I believe many of the defense modifiers are not applied against an amphib attack.

hi ,

make a test scen ones , just place a couple units and cities on a map , try the berserker , the marine and a unit that you have made and given amph ability , see what happens , .......

have a nice day

Theseus · September 28, 2003, 09:54

Sorry, panag, I am not sure what you are advising or what the objective would be.

In other words... huh?

Panag · September 28, 2003, 10:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus
Sorry, panag, I am not sure what you are advising or what the objective would be.

In other words... huh?

hi ,

experiment yourself is still the best school , .......

there are some flaws in the game when it comes to berserkers doing what they are supposed to do , .......

still trying to calculate the numbers for the USMC , the berserkers and the own created unit with amph ability , .....

time after time the numbers dont add up , .....

have a nice day

Theseus · September 28, 2003, 10:34

Sorry, still not following.

Are you saying amphib attacks don't seem to match the supposed odds?

Panag · September 28, 2003, 13:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus
Sorry, still not following.

Are you saying amphib attacks don't seem to match the supposed odds?

hi ,

that seems to be the case , ......

have a nice day