Extra Pack Finalization Project, parts 1-4 compiled

[Wernazuma III]

Here is a compilation of parts 1-4 of the ExtraPack threads, so we don't use too much space up here for topped threads. As there is many many things in here, please restrict yourself not to lead debates on minor issues, I think the list is pretty good as it is. Of course, if you still have some anger about one thing or the other, go ahead.


1. Spanish

Names: Spain, the Spanish, Spanish
Ruler/ Titel: Isabella/ Queen
Leaders: El Cid, Ferdinand, Pizarro, Cortes, Philipp II, Farnese
UU: Tercio (2/4/2); Saltpeter; replaces Musket Man
CSA : Militaristic, Religious
Shunned/Favored Gov.: Communism; Monarchy
Cities :
Madrid
Barcelona
Valencia
Sevilla
Zaragoza
Merida
Cadiz
Toledo
Córdoba
Granada
Bilbao
Málaga
San Sebastián
Gijón
La Coruña
Albacete
Murcia
Salamanca
Santiago de Compostela
Ávila
Cáceres
Cuenca
Segovia
Ibiza
Cartagena
Valladolid
León
Santander
Oviedo
Tarragona
Almería
Vitoria
Lérida
Castellón de la Plana
Pamplona
Burgos
Badajoz
Alicante
Huelva
Almunecar
Rosas
Ampurias
Sagunto
Santa Cruz de Tenerife
Las Palmas
Isabella
Panama
Veracruz
Buenos Aires





The Mongols

Names: Mongolia, the Mongols, Mongol
Ruler/Title: Gengis/Great Khan
Leaders: Chepe, Subedei, Muqali, Borte, Kublai, Akbar, Timur Tamerlane
UU: Horse Archer (5/2/3); Horses; replaces Knight
CSA: Militaristic, Expansionist
Shunned/Favored Gov.: Democracy, Monarchy
Cities:
Karakorum
Dadu
Sarai Batu
Sarai Berke
Almalik
Yihe Huree
Samarkand
Bukhara
Kashgar
Otrar
Saray al-Dzedid
Hadji-Tarkhan
Beldzamen
Ukek
Qrim
Tana
Bulgar
Kazan
Djuketau
Herat
Kabul
Hormuz
Urgench
Orhei
Khiagt
Darhan
Erdenet
Bayan Tumen
Hovd
Uvs
Hovsgol
Dalan Balzhut

Arabs

Names: Arabia, the Arabs, Arab
Ruler/Title: Harun Al Rashid/ Caliph
Leaders: Umar ibn al-Khattab, Al Tarik, Al Mamun, Zenig, Baybars, Saladin, Nuredin, Amr ibn al-As, Arafat
UU: Camel Rider (5/3/2); Iron; replaces Knight
CSA: Religious, Commercial
Shunned/Favored Gov.: Communism, Monarchy
Cities:
Medina
Baghdad
Mekka
Cairo
Damascus
Tangier
Samarra
Raqqa
Beirut
Basra
Er-Riad
Mosul
Beirut
Cordoba
Aden
Algier
Tunis
Fez
Doha
Dubai
Palmyra
Casablanca
Manama
Sana
Kairouan
Homs
Amman
Qazvin
Halib
Barqa
Tripolis
Marrakech
Mahdia
Quahran
Port Said
Dschidda
Kuwait
Rabat
Kirkuk
Oujda
Bengasi
Sfax
Abu Dhabi
Tetouan
Ad-Dammam
Al-Hafuf
Hodeida
Al-Taif
In Salah
El Faiyam
Meknes
Kerbala

Incas

Names: Inca, the Incans, Incan
Ruler/Title: Atahualpa/ Inca
Leaders: Manco Copac, Tupac Yupanqui, Tupac Amaru, Huayna Capac, Topa Inka, Cusi Yupanqui, Pachacutec, Huascar
UU: Sun Warrior (2/1/1); replaces warrior
CSA: Industrious, Expansionist
Shunned/Favored Gov.: Democracy, Communism
Cities:
Cuzco
Tiahuanaco
Machu Picchu
Chan Chan
Chimu
Moche
Chavin de Huantar
Caral
Quito
Paracas
Cajamarca
Yucay
Tambo Colorado
Pisac
Huari
Ollantaytambo
Limatambo
Chachapoyas
Lambayeque
Huamachuco
Pachacamac
Kotosh
Recuay
Chiprac
Huaras
Paramonga
Pacasmayo
Ica
Nazca
Pisco
Tumbez
Sillustani
Tilcara
Huaca Prieta
Lauricocha
Pucara
Arequipa

Vikings:

Names: Vikings, the Vikings, Viking
Ruler/Title: Knut/ King
Leaders:
Harald Fairhair, Leif Eriksson, Erik Bloodaxe, Harald Hardrada, Harald Bluetooth,
Magnus
UU: Drakkar (1/1/4; T2); replaces trireme, can go on sea squres
CSA: Expansionist, Commercial
Shunned/Favored Gov.: Monarchy, Democracy
Cities:
Trondheim
Oslo
Stockholm
Copenhagen
Reykjavik
Uppsala
Göteborg
Odense
Bergen
Linköping
Birka
Sigtuna
Roskilde
Lejre
Jellinge
Haithabu
Lund
Jorvik
Ribe
Brattahlid
Gardar
Hvarf
Torshavn
Kvivik
Sandur
Sandavagur
Jarlshof
Veigsfjordur
Vikingalo
Hlymrekur
Dyflinn
Kaupang
Jarrow
Thingvollur
Maeshowe
Thingvellir
Vedrafjord
Fyrkat
Kjönugard
Holmgard
Jomsborg
Nonnebakken
Lade
Borg
Vinland


Turks

Names: Turkey, the Turks, Turk
Ruler/Title: Mehmed/Sultan
Leaders:
Osman, Murad, Selim, Alp Arslan, Tughril Beg, Koprulu Pasha, Sokolli Pasha, Piri Reis, Kara Mustafa, Atatürk
UU: Janissary (2/4/2); replaces Musket Man; requires Saltpeter
CSA: Militaristic, Expansionist
Shunned/Favored Gov.: Democracy, Monarchy
Cities:
Istanbul
Ankara
Bursa
Konya
Iznik
Izmit
Aydin
Qaraman
Izmir
Trabzon
Diyarbakir
Mardin
Malatya
Sivas
Adana
Kayseri
Amasya
Kutahya
Denizli
Aksaray
Aksehir
Silifke
Antalya
Erzincan
Erzurum
Kars
Nigde
Sinop
Edirne
Ayas
Bitlis

Phoenicians

Names: Phoenicia, the Phoenicians, Phoenician
Ruler/Title: Hannibal/Sufet
Leaders: Hiram, Hamilkar, Hasdrubal, Hanno
UU: Quniquireme (1/2/3 [T3]); replaces trireme
CSA: Expansionist, Commercial
Shunned/Favored Gov.: Communism, Republic
Cities:
Carthago
Tyre
Byblos
Sidon
Arvad
Gadir
Utica
Hadrumet
Ugarit
Marathus
Tripoli
Berytus
Baalbek
Zaraphath
Ushu
Accho
Joppa
Dor
Citium/Kition
Motya
Panormus
Nora
Sulci
Tharros
Malaca
Sexi
Carmona
Abdera
Baria
Eivissa
Tingis
Leptis
Sabratha
Oea
Tacape
Neapolis
Zama
Hippo Diarrhytus
Tipasa
Siga
Lixus
Mogador
Karatepe
Carthago Nova
Tarshish
Jubeil
Ophir
Marisa
Shechem
Ashdod
Enkomi
Curium
Paphos
Amathus
Cossrya
Lilybaeum
Melita
Olbia
Caralis
Bitia
Lucentum
Djerba
Thapsus
Rachgoun
Kerkouane
Thasos
Wasta
Umm el-Amed
Sarepta
Palaetyrus


Mayas

Names: Maya, the Mayas, Mayan
Ruler/Title: Pacal/ Bacab
Leaders: Nachi Cocom, Cecilio Chi, Hunak Ke’el
UU: Balam Warrior (1/2/1); replaces Warrior
CSA: Religious, Scientific
Shunned/Favored Gov.: Democracy, Monarchy
Cities:
Tikal
Chichen Itza
Palenque
Mayapan
Uxmal
Tulum
Yaxchilan
Izamal
Copan
Bonampak
Labna
Seibal
Koba
Kaminaljuyu
Izapa
Uaxactun
Qumaar Kah
Altun Ha
Lamanai
Kabah
Edzna
Becan
Ake
Xcaret
Loltun
Tayasal
Xpuhil
Balankanche
Dzibilchaltun
Hochob
Ekbalam
Cozumel
Culuba
Iximche
Kalakmul
Tazumal
Lubaantun
Dzibilnocac
Xunantunich
Yaxche Xlapbak
Ikil
Sayil
Xcavil de Yaxche
Tonina
Pok Ta Pok
Oxkintok
Chincultic
Chicanna
Chacmultun
Yaxuna
Nakum
Muyil
Axanceh
Chinkultic
Chacalal
Nohmul
Abaj Takalik
Tohkok
Mul Chic
Tankah
Kuhunlich
Corozal
Quelepa
Nakbe
Yaxha
Topoxte
Zaculeu
Ulua



Celts

Names: Celts, the Celts, Celtic
Ruler/Title: Boadicea/ Queen
Leaders: Vortigern, Vercingetorix, Cunobelin, Llewellyn, Grufyd
UU: Woad Warrior (3/2/2); replaces Swordsman; requires iron
Shunned/Favored Gov.: Democracy, Monarchy
Cities:
La Tene
Hallstatt
Tintagel
Llundain
Caer Baddon
Rhydychen
Caergrawnt
Caeredin
Catraeth
Caerloyw
Caerdydd
Ty Ddewi
Caerfyrddin
Aberteifi
Abertawe
Bangor
Caernarfon
Castell Nedd
Casnewydd
Y Trallwng
Efrog
Ynys Afallon
Manceinion
Baile Atha Cliath/Dulyn
Galatia
Numantia
Kells
Armagh
Caernarfon
Caerphilly
Chorcaí
Gaillimh
Rhymney
Iona
Rhondda
Illauntanig
Durrow
Merthyr
Tara
Llangollen
Dinas Powys
Aberystwyth
Rhayader
Abergavenny
Dinas Emerys
Llanelli
Maesteg
Reichenhall
Hallein
Hall
Alesia

Portuguese

Names: Portugal, the Portuguese, Portuguese
Ruler/Title: João II/King
Leaders: Henry the Navigator, da Gama, Cabral, Marquis of Pombal, Álvares Pereira, Alfonso de Albuquerque
UU: Nao (1/2/4[4]); replaces caravel
Shunned/Favored Gov.: Democracy, Monarchy
Cities:
Lisbon
Guimarães
Porto
Coimbra
Faro
Braga
Bragança
Santarém
Évora
Beja
Alcobaça
Viseu
Guarda
Castelo Branco
Sines
Sagres
Leiria
Viana do Castelo
Vila Real
Aveiro
Portalegre
Setúbal
Funchal
Ponta Delgada
Angra do Heroísmo
Covilhã
Sintra
Avis
Crato
Vila Viscosa
Figueira da Foz
Chaves
Portimão
Macau
Goa
Diu
Díli
São Paulo
Natal
Recife
Lourenço Marques
Luanda
Cidade da Praia
Mombaça

Dutch

Names: Netherlands, the Dutch, Dutch
Ruler/Title: William Orange /Stadtholder
Leaders: Piet Heyn, Tromp, de Ruyter, Maurice, van Speyk, Thorbecke, van Oldenbarnevelt
UU:
Ship of the Line (1/3/4[5]); replaces Galleon
Shunned/Favored Gov.: Despotism, Republic
Cities:
Amsterdam
The Hague
Rotterdam
Utrecht
Middelburg
Delft
Vlissingen
Deventer
Hertogenbosch
Maastricht
Nijmegen
Groningen
Amersfoort
Kampen
Zwolle
Leeuwarden
Haarlem
Leiden
Dordrecht
Gouda
Roermond
Alkmaar
Breda
Arnhem
Harderwijk
Zutphen
Dokkum
Enkhuizen
Sneek
Venlo
Zierikzee
Bergen op Zoom
Gorkum
Schoonhoven
Kampveere
Tilburg
Enschede
Assen
Eindhoven
Den Helder
Meppel
Delfzijl
IJmuiden
Fort Oranje
Fort Nassau
Capetown
Batavia
Pietermaritzburg
Pretoria
Almere
Lelystad


Hebrews
Names: Israel, the Hebrews, Hebrew
Ruler/Title: David /King
Leaders: Moses, Solomon, Joshua, Saul, Juda Maccabaeus, Herzl, Ben Gurion, Rabin
UU: Merkava (24/18/3); replaces Modern Armor
Shunned/Favored Gov.: Despotism, Monarchy
Cities:
Jerusalem
Tel Aviv
Hebron
Jericho
Betlehem
Be'er Sheva
Haifa
Shchem
Tsfat
Jaffa
Nasaret
Ramat-Gan
Netanya
Eilat
Ashdod
Ashkelon
Tiberias
Shilo
Giliead
Masada
Rehovot
Gamla
Dan
Betar
Yavneh
Mizpah
Gilo
Lachish
Ramla
Lod
Efrat
Beit Shemesh
Shomron
Dimona
Bnei Brak
Arad
Ramat Hasharon
Herziliya
Ra'anana
Kfar-Sava
Rishon-Lezion
Naharia
Petah-Tikva


Poles

Names: Poland, the Poles, Polish
Ruler/Title: Kazimierz Wielki / King
Leaders: Batory, Czartoryski, Pilsudski, Koniecpolski, Potocki, Zolkiewski, Sobieski, Chodkiewicz, Boleslaw Smialy, Sikorski, Wisniowiecki, Kosciuszko, Anders, J.Poniatowski, Czarniecki, Jagiello, Zawisza Czarny, Lech Walesa
UU: Hussar (4/3/3) replaces Knights; requires Horses
Shunned/Favored Gov.: Despotism, Republic
Cities:
Warsaw
Olsztyn
Bialystok
Wroclaw
Gdansk
Sczcecin
Torun
Bydgoszcz
Gorzow
Zielona Gora
Poznan
Lodz
Lublin
Kielce
Wroclaw
Opole
Katowice
Krakow
Rzeszow.
Koszalin
Slupsk
Elblag
Gniezno
Lwow
Suwalki
Pila
Wloclawek
Plock
Ciechanow
Lomza
Konin
Siedlce
Biala Podlaska
Leszno
Kalisz
Sieradz
Skierniewice
Piotrkow Trybunalski
Radom
Chelm
Legnica
Jelenia Gora
Walbrzych
Czestochowa
Tarnobrzeg
Tarnow
Zamosc
Przemysl
Bielsko Biala
Nowy Sacz
Krosno
Gdynia
Grudziadz
Bytom
Zabrze
Gliwice
Ruda Slaska
Rybnik
Tychy
Chorzow
Sosnowiec
Jastrzebie Zdroj
Dabrowa Gornicza




Names: Ethiopia, the Ethiopians, Ethiopian
Ruler/Title: Ezana/ Abuna
Leaders: Kaleb, Wahsi, Yekuno Amlak, Lalibela, Zara Yakob, Amda Siyon, Iyasu I, Menelik II, Haile Selassie
UU: Sarwe(2/2/1) replaces Spearman
Shunned/Favored Gov.:Communism, Monarchy
Cities:
Aksum
Adulis
Matara
Adefa
Gondar
Zeila
Addis Ababa
Berbera
Sawakin
Harer
Yeha
Gabaza
Dahlak Kebir
Samidi
Adwa
Ku'bar
Ankober
Zayla`
Aydhab
Weqro
Ham
Tekondo
Qohayto
Addi Dahno
Henzat
Cherqos Agula
Degum
Hawelti
Melazo
Meroe
Aden
Sana
Marib
Dongola
Soba
Weyna Dega
Mar'adé
Genbita
Kassala
Hanhita
Aganiti
Nazret
Qeneda
Tchika-Beret
Roha
Aseb
Dese
Massawa/Mitsiwa
Asmara/Asmera
Addi Grammaten
Kaskase
Feqya
Zala-Bet-Makeda
Etchmara
Gulo-Makeda
Haghero-Deragweh
Dergouah
Hawzien
Kwiha
Welwel
Anza
Wuchate Golo
Edage Hamus
Addi Galamo
Nasi
Arato
Rora Laba
Dicdic
Shimbra Kure
Metema
Dogali

Koreans
Names: Korea, the Koreans, Korean
Ruler/Title: Sejong/ Daewang
Leaders: Tangun, Yi Soonshin, Gwanggeto, Hyo Jong, Dae Joyoung, Yi Song-gye, Kim Yu-Shin, Ulchi Mundok
UU: Kobukson(3/3/3) requires Iron, Saltpeter; replaces Frigate
Shunned/Favored Gov.: Communism, Monarchy
Cities:
Seoul
P'yeongyang
Inch'eon
Daejeon
Daegu
Kwangju
Pusan
Ulsan
Namp'o
Kaeseong
Kyeongju
Chaeju
Ch'angwon
Cheonju
Ch'eongju
Suwon
Ch'unch'eon
Haeju
Shinuiju
Hamheung
Ch'eongjin
Seogwip'o
Mokp'o
Kunsan
Namwon
Chinju
Chinhae
Masan
Kimhae
P'ohang
Andong
Yeongju
Kumi
Asan
Ch'eonan
Ch'ungju
Uijeongbu
Seongnam
Anyang
Osan
P'yeongtaek
Wonju-shi
Sokch'o
Songrim
Sariwon
Wonsan
Heungnam
Najin
Seongjin
Naju
Sunch'eon
Yeoch'eon
Yeosu
Kwangyang
Iksan
Kimchae
Cheongup
Sach'eon
Tongyeong
Keochae
Kyeongsan
Yeongch'eon
Kimch'eon
Sasan
Kongju
Boryeong
Nonsan
Chaech'eon
Dongduch'eon
Koyang
Namyangju
Kuri
Kwangmyeong
Kwach'eon
Hanam
Shiheung
Ansan
Kunp'o
Uiwang
Yongin
Daebaek
Samch'eok
Donghae
Kangreung
Haesan
Shinp'o
Manp'o
Kangkyae
Huich'eon
Kuseong



Khmer
Names: Khmer, the Khmer, Khmer
Ruler/Title: Jayavarman VII/ Deva-Raja
Leaders: Soma, Suryavarman, Indravarman, Yasovarman, Rajendravarman
UU: Phak'akMan (2/3/1); requires Iron; replaces Pikeman
Shunned/Favored Gov.: Republic, Monarchy
Cities:
Yasodharapura
Harihalara
Angkor Thom
Angkor Wat
Roluos
Jayendranagari
Koh Ker
Phimai
Phnom Penh
Isanapura
Oc Eo
Wat Phu
Phanom Rung
Buriram
Vientiane
Srisatchanalai
Sukhothai
Kompong Cham
Saigon
Hue
Aranyapathet
Ayuthaya
Lop Buri
Maung Singh
Banteay Srei
Takeo
Pre Rup
Phnom Kulen
Preah Vihear
Beng Melea
Banteay Samre
Chey Say Tevoda
Thommanon
Ta Phrom
Banteay Kdei
Neak Pean
Sras Srang
Prei Monti
Preah Ko
Bakong
Lolei
Baksei Chamkrong
Prasat Kravan
Phimeanakas
Mahendraparvata
Preah Khan
Suryaparvata
Indrapura
Sambhupura
Beng Mealea
Chok Gargyar
Chantaburi
Banteay Chhmar
Muang Tam

[godinex]

1. The civ name is: Jews... And I thonk the best leader will be Moses, not David.
2. Jews great leaders: Saul not, Saul was an enemy of David. Put some one else like Daniel, or other of the great prophets.
3. Incas, the UU must be an scout, or change the name... look the xplanation in the 7th part of this tread

[Wernazuma III]

1. We have discussed whether the civ's name should be "Jews" or "Hebrews" and I think the final outcome of the discussion was to have "Hebrews", so we don't focus on either religion nor "race". So I don't think we should change it.
2. I'm lamentably not fond in the Old Testament, so I'll simply change it for now. Other opinions welcome of course.
3. We were thinking about the Chasqui-runners, but then decided not to have them in because of several reasons: Giving him one more movement makes him too powerful. The incans would discover in no time large areas and get too many benefits from goody huts. Even more so, if we give him some defense or offense, as he then even could defend against barbarians. On the other hand a non-combat UU means no Military Golden Age for the Incans. I know that the Sun Warrior is a bad approximation of "typical Incan", but I didn't have another idea.

Btw.: Great work with finding graphics (except for the Ethiopian Woman...)

[Wernazuma III]

Oh, sorry. I've just looked up a bit and saw, that Saul was the first king, so why not including him? And Great Leaders should be political or military leaders and no prophets, so I let the list as it is. (And if I remember correctly, the list was made by an Israeli)

[godinex]

Ok, but the Hebrews are a religious state. At least one prophet is needed.
Ah! and if David woul be the leader please don`t make him like the actor of the movie (The same of Lancelot and Pretty Woman!)

[Wernazuma III]

Theodor Herzl is almost a prophet, don't you think
No, honestly: I'll add Moses as a Leader then, as he was also politically important. About David: With your gift of finding good images, I'm sure you can find a more appropriate one.

[godinex]

Hey this one is from Salomon but If You want to see more take a look at the new tread called Hebrews.

[siredgar]

I find it questionable to include quasi-fictional figures like Moses in a game that is mostly based on real history. The Bible has not been validated after all. We're not even sure if Moses even existed. This is a problem, isn't it? This is a unique situation with including the Israelites in the game.

[godinex]

mmm. but the Occidental worls and also the muslim accept in fact taht Moses exist, and in the egyptian history exist too... and don´t forget the Disney Movie.

[siredgar]

If you have Moses or David as the great leader, it would be very different from other more historical great leaders like Lincoln or Mao.

[godinex]

Why? Only because they appears in bible? like Xerxes or Nabudonozer or whatever speel it.

[Wernazuma III]

I partially agree about Moses: He is semi-fictional, but nevertheless he is also half historical, just like the Spartan law-giver Lykourgos or the romano-etruscan kings. I think it's not too much a problem to have him in the leaders list.
David, however, is a historical person for all we can judge. As godinex says, he is as historical as Nebukkadnezar and other mesopotamian rulers of the 1st millenium BC.

[Viseus]

First of all, I find it terrible that a dane should be the leader of the Vikings. This Knut was even a christian! No, a real, norwegian heathen king would be better. Harald Hårfagre, for instance.

Also, the spelling of the leader names should be "Leiv Eiriksson" and "Harald Hardråde" ('aa' if you can't use 'å'). I suppose the other names can be accepted as translated to english.

The last of the leaders, 'Magnus', should probably be given a last name too, as there are at least a dozen persons by that name mentioned in the sagas. I don't know which of them this one is supposed to be.

There are of course plenty of other leader names to chose from, if you need more. Appeared to be a bit few.

Finally, I think you should call the Viking unique unit "longship" instead of the proposed "drakkar". The drakkar was a kind of longship that was very big, expensive and rare. The smaller types were much more common, and "longship" is also a more understandable and general name, spanning all viking ships.(Reference link)

I like the 1/1/4 stats, and the open sea ability. Would be very cool (and historically accurate) if units could attack directly out of the longships, but I'm sure that'd be difficoult to implement, technically.

(Hope this post is ok, and that it doesn't fall under the "leading debates on minor issues" paragraph.)

[Kharash Tirum]

About the Incan UU:
Try an improvement of the archer. As the AoK exp. did. Why not?
Also, where do I download all this? Can I download this?

[Wernazuma III]

Viseus: At first, your post is perfectly OK, especially as many seem to have discussed this enough, so I don't face a fllod of posts to look through.
To your issues: The Drakkar will stay. Not because I simply like it, but because it has become the common agreement in the old thread. Personally I wouldn't mind the Longship, maybe we can change it, if no one opposes. I think, the Drakkar was chosen in order to give it even more a "Viking-flavor". We also have discussed about making the Drakkar a "Marine" unit, i.e. capable of attacking land squares. AFAIK, it's impossible to implement a feature that would allow units debarking from a sea unit to attack directly without the Marine specifics.
About the spelling of names: "In general" we have opted to prefer the English versions of names, although some exceptions could be made. If you have a good choice for a "heathen" ruler of the Vikings, please post it with a quote from a website, although I guess, our "Viking" civ is supposed to cover all scandinavian ocean-tied culture, including the Normans etc.
Just propose some last name for "Magnus". I can only repeat to say, that most of the lists were not made by me, so I simply added them and put them here for discussion, so I don#t exactly know what the maker of the list thought, when adding "Magnus".

Kharash:You cannot download the info because it is not yet implemented into a scenario. We'd need still graphics guys and a modmaker to do this. The information yet exists only as it is put here, so downloading it to your PC is "copy&paste" it to your notepad

[Viseus]

So what is the status of this part of the project then? Is it all settled, or is it still open to debate? If so, should I start a new thread, or keep it in this one?

I realize I'm a bit late for discussions about this, as I discovered Apolyton just last week. In fact, I don't even think I understand this project completely. Is there some description, mission statment, etc anywhere?

[godinex]

Originally posted by Kharash Tirum
About the Incan UU:
Try an improvement of the archer. As the AoK exp. did. Why not?
Also, where do I download all this? Can I download this?

I like this idea... just imagine all the american tribes with super warriors.
And for Viseus all the old treads are in the Top of this forum, take a look in order.

[Wernazuma III]

OK, here is a short introduction for Viseus: The plan is to make a mod with 16 extra civs. Therefore we had a huge poll about which to include and decided for those you can see in this thread. Then a number of guys presented city lists etc. for the different civs, and we discussed on and on. In this thread, I have put the "conclusion" of all those threads which were really long and hard to look through. The information from here, together with the graphics ( ) and a readme should then be put into a bic file and voilá, we should have a modpack
Thus yes, main discussion should be over, but there can always be errors, mistakes etc., so it's not "completely" over.

[dunk]

Why is the Poles UU worse than the Mongol one?

Polish... 4/2/3 replace knight, needs horses

Mongol... 5/2/3 replace knight, needs horses.

I know everyone likes the Mongols, but their unit shouldn't be better than everyone else's. Up the Polish ones defense value.

The Spanish and Turkish UUs are identical.

2/4/2 needs saltpeter, replace musketman. Can one be 2/5/1?

This is all very good work by the way.

[Alephz]

I think Tercios are too defensive, it was an offensive unit, maybe 4/3/2 or 3/4/2 is more realistic?

[Wernazuma III]

Alephz: As most UUs add only one point to either a/D or Movement, I thought it's the best to give them an add. movement.
The french musketeer has 3/4/1, i.e. one more attck than the musket man.

dunk: You're right. It should have been 4/3/3 for the Hussar. My mistake

[dunk]

Originally posted by Alephz
I think Tercios are too defensive, it was an offensive unit, maybe 4/3/2 or 3/4/2 is more realistic?

If they replace the musketman, they must be defensive, IMO. Otherwise, the AI wouldn't keep them in cities and would be too easy to defeat.

[Imp. Montezuma]

The Mongols

Names: Mongolia, the Mongols, Mongol
Ruler/Title: Gengis/Great Khan
Leaders: Chepe, Sudebei, Muqali, Borte, Kublai, Aqbar, Timur Tamerlane

Ruler name are very strange! Historical spelling are Chingiz-khan.
by the way Chingiz-khan is only title, means 'Lord of [peoples] Ocean' name is Temujin.

Great Leaders spelling are Jebe, Subedei, Khubilai-khan.
Borte is first (and beloved) wife of Chingiz-khan.
Aqbar is Uzbek, no mongol, was ruler of India.
Tamerlane and Timur Leng is equale, means 'Dummy Iron Man' .
And Timur is Uzbek ruler.

Hebrews
Names: Israel, the Hebrews, Hebrew
Ruler/Title: David /King
Leaders: Moses, Solomon, Joshua, Saul, Juda Maccabaeus, Herzl, Ben Gurion, Rabin

My proposal for Hebrew ruler is Solomon. He was great ruler of Israel.

[Imp. Montezuma]

Names: Phoenicia, the Phoenicians, Phoenician
Ruler/Title: Hannibal/Sufet
Leaders: Hiram, Hamilkar, Hasdrubal, Hanno

Why Phoenicians?
Replace Phoenicians with Cartagians. They are most significiant in History then Phoenicians with weak and small land.
Curioselly Ruler/Leaders are Cartagians.
How You mind locate in one point in game map Israel and Phoenicia? Then Numidia region in vacuum!

[Wernazuma III]

OK, you're a settler, so I explain it again:
a) "leader of x should better be person y" is not discussed here anymore, unless we e.g. put a viking as a leader of the Ethiopians
b) most of the time we use the anglizised versions of names and those which are better "known", so Gengis is perfectly OK.

Now to the other things:
Borte is in to represent the high influence of women in the mongolian rule. She was very much a politician.
Timur and Aqbar are in because they referred to mongol culture and heritage even if they were none.
I know that Timur Leng and Tamerlane are the same, that's why there is no semicolon between Timur and "Tamerlane". Tamerlane actually means "the tame" AFAIK.
Phoenicians are in because they were preferred in a poll on exactly that topic, as they also include the Carthaginians. Not all leaders in the list are from Carthage, Hiram was king of Tyre.

You're right though about the geographical problem though, so I set Carthage as the capital, although we all know that Phoenicians are not from North Africa.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
b) most of the time we use the anglizised versions of names and those which are better "known", so Gengis is perfectly OK.

Actually, the proper name would be Genghis Khan, and that is by far the most frequently used way of spelling it. Ginghiz is AFAIK very rarely used, even Google (not that that is the best source to go by, but still) only finds 5 results (compared to about 75,000 for Genghis).

However, Imp. Montezuma definitely has a point with Subedei though, that's probably a typo (by me ).

Timur and Akbar (I think Akbar is the anglicized version of the name, at least the (by far) most widely used one) are, or at least claim to be, direct descendents of Genghis Khan and are AFAIK widely recognized as Mongols in origin (although some prefer to view Akbar as Indian). Timur and Akbar (or at least his father/grandfather) ruled over Uzbek territory but that doesn't make them Uzbeks.


Edit: BTW, the (more or less) final results look nice

[Imp. Montezuma]

With Timur Leng was ended Mongol realm and culture in Maver-an-Nahr, land between great central-asian rivers. Emir Timur beginning proper Uzbek history. Yes, I know that Uzbek name still with Ashtarkhanids 'Roaming Uzbeks'. They divide self to 'Uzbeks' and 'Kazaks'. Timur destroes heritages of the mongol law, military and political systems. He is no mongol, no Chingizid, but from Mangyt (Nogai tribe). May be Sweden is French state, if they kings origines is from France? Or England centuries after William Conqueror? :0

Great leader for Mongols: Kirsan Ilumzhin(ov) - the Prezident of Kalmykia - subject of Russian Federation. Kalmyks are Mongol tribe

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Imp. Montezuma
With Timur Leng was ended Mongol realm and culture in Maver-an-Nahr, land between great central-asian rivers. Emir Timur beginning proper Uzbek history. Yes, I know that Uzbek name still with Ashtarkhanids 'Roaming Uzbeks'. They divide self to 'Uzbeks' and 'Kazaks'. Timur destroes heritages of the mongol law, military and political systems. He is no mongol, no Chingizid, but from Mangyt (Nogai tribe).

Let's see:

Timur


(tmr´) (KEY) or Tamerlane (tm´rln) (KEY) , c.1336–1405, Mongol conqueror, b. Kesh, near Samarkand. He is also called Timur Leng [Timur the lame]. He was the son of a tribal leader, and he claimed (apparently for the first time in 1370) to be a descendant of Jenghiz Khan. With an army composed of Turks and Turkic-speaking Mongols, remnants of the empire of the Mongols, Timur spent his early military career in subduing his rivals in what is now Turkistan; by 1369 he firmly controlled the entire area from his capital at Samarkand.
Campaigns he waged against Persia occupied him until 1387. By that time he had in his possession the lands stretching East from the Euphrates River. He advanced (1392) across the Euphrates, conquered the territory between the Caspian and Black seas, and invaded several of the Russian states. By weakening the Crimean Tatars he helped clear the way for the conquests of the grand duchy of Moscow. Timur abandoned some of his Russian conquests to return to Samarkand and invade (1398) India along the route of the Indus River. He took Delhi and brought the Delhi Sultanate to an end, but he withdrew with little addition to his domain.
In 1400, Timur ravaged Georgia and proceeded to the Levant, where he took Aleppo and Baghdad. His next war was fought in Asia Minor against the Ottoman Turks, and in 1402, at Angora, he captured their sultan, Beyazid I, who, contrary to popular belief, was well treated. Timur died while planning an invasion of China. His tomb at Samarkand was long known to archaeologists, but it is only recently that his skeleton, buried in a deep crypt, was found.
Timur’s reputation is that of a cruel conqueror. After capturing certain cities he slaughtered thousands of the defenders (perhaps 80,000 at Delhi) and built pyramids of their skulls. Although a Muslim, he was scarcely more merciful to those of his own faith than to those he considered infidels. His positive achievements were the encouragement of art, literature, and science and the construction of vast public works. He had little hope that his vast conquests would remain intact, and before his death he arranged for them to be divided among his sons. The Timurids are the line of rulers descended from him. Christopher Marlowe’s play Tamburlaine luridly recounts his conquests. 4
See biographies by H. Hookham (1962) and B. F. Manz (1989); J. H. Sanders, tr., Tamerlane (tr. of late 14th-century Arabic work by A. Ibn Arabshah, 1936).

and:


Tamerlane (1336 - 1405) - The Last Great Nomad Power


Tamerlane, the name was derived from the Persian Timur-i lang, "Temur the Lame" by Europeans during the 16th century. His Turkic name is Timur, which means 'iron'. In his life time, he conquered more than anyone else except for Alexander. His armies crossed Eurasia from Delhi to Moscow, from the Tien Shan Mountains of Central Asia to the Taurus Mountains in Anatolia. From 1370 till his death 1405, Temur built a powerful empire and became the last of great nomadic leaders.

There are abundant mediaeval sources concerning Tamerlane. We have the primary source in Spanish from Ruy Gonzalez de Clavijo, sent by King Henry III of Castile on a return embassy to Tamerlane. There is also a Persian biography of Tamerlane by Ali Sharaf ad-Din and the Arab biography by Ahmad ibn Arabshah; from Marlowe to Edgar Allan Poe, he continues to fascinate us as hero or viper.

Timur claimed direct descent from Jenghiz Khan through the house of Chagatai. He was born at Kesh (the Green city), about fifty miles south of Sarmarkand in 1336, a son of a lesser chief of the Barlas tribe. Sharaf ad-Din explained that he received arrow wounds in battle while stealing sheep in his twenties, and this left him lame in the right leg and with a stiff right arm for the rest of his life. But Tamerlane made light of these disabilities; by 1369 he had possessed himself of all the lands which had formed the heritage of Chagatai and, after being proclaimed sovereign at Balkh, made Samarkand his capital.

He was said to be tall, strongly built and well proportioned, with a large head and broad forehead. His complexion was pale and ruddy, his beard long and his voice full and resonant. Arabshah describes him approaching seventy, as a master politician and military strategist:


"...steadfast in mind and robust in body, brave and fearless, firm as rock. He did not care for jesting or lying; wit and trifling pleased him not; truth, even were it painful, delighted him.....He loved bold and valiant soldiers, by whose aid he opend the locks of terror, tore men to pieces like lions, and overturned mountains. He was fautless in strategy, constant in fortune, firm of purpose and truthful in business."

In 1941, the body of Tamerlane was permitted to be exhumed by a Russian scientist, M. M. Gerasimov. The scientist found Timur, after examining his skeleton, a Mongoloid man about 5 feet 8 inches. He also confirmed Tamerlane's lameness. In his book The Face Finder, Gerasimov explains how he was able to reconstruct exact likenesses of Timur from a careful consideration of his skull.

Different sources indicate that Timur is a man with extraordinary intelligence - not only intuitive, but intellectual. Even though he did not know how to read or write, he spoke two or three languages including Persian and Turkic and liked to be read history at meal times. He had aesthetic appreciation of architecture and gardens. It has been said that he loved art so much that he could not help stealing it! The Byzantine palace gates of the Ottoman capital of Brusa were carried off to Samarkand, where they were much admired by Clavijo. Ibn Khaldun, who met him outside Damascus in 1401 wrote:

"This king Timur is one of the greatest and mightiest kings...he is hightly intelligent and very perspicacious, addicted to debate and argument about what he knows and also about what he does not know!"

Known to be a chess player, he had invented a more elaborate form of the game, now called Tamerlane Chess, with twice the number of pieces on a board of a hundred and ten squares.


The question of Timur's religion beliefs has been a matter of controversy ever since he began his great conquests. His veneration of the house of the Prophet, the spurious genealogy on his tombstone taking his descent back to Ali, and the presence of Shi'ites in his army led some observers and scholars to call him a Shi'ite. However his official religious counselor was the Hanafite scholar Abd al Jabbar Khwarazmi. Timur's religious practices with their admixture of Turco-Mongolian shamanistic elements belonged to the Sufi tradition. Timur avowed himself the disciple of Sayyid Baraka, the holy man of the commercial city of Tirmidh. He also constructed one of his finest buildings at the tomb of Ahmad Yaassawi, who was doing most to spread folk Islam among the nomads.

In religion as in other aspects of his life Timur was above all an opportunist; his religion served frequently to further his aims, but almost never to curcumscribe his actions. It was in the justification of his rule and his conquests that Timur found Islam most useful.


The same as Jenghiz Khan, Timur rose from a nomad ruler; however unlike Jenghiz Khan, he was the first one to base his strength on the exploitation of settled populations and inherited a system of rule which could encompass both settled and nomad populations. Those who saw Timur's army described it as a huge conglomeration of different peoples - nomad and settled, Muslims and Christians, Turks, Tajiks, Arabs, Georgians and Indians. Timur's conquests were extraordinary not only for their extent and their success, but also for their ferocity and massacres. The war machine was composed of 'tumen', military units of a 10,000 in the conquered territories. It consisted of his family, loyal tribes particularly the Barlas and Jalayir tribes, recruited soldiers from nomadic population from as far as the Moghuls, Golden Horde and Anatolia, and finally Persian- speaking sedentarists.

Timur and his army were never at rest and neither age nor increasing infirmity could halt his growing ambitions. In 1391 Timur's army fought and won in the great battle of Kanduzcha on June 18. Following his campaign in India, he acquired an elephant corps and took them back to Samarkand for building mosques and tombs. He led the attack and victory on the Ottoman army in the battle of Ankara on July 28 1402.

With great interest in trade, Timur had a grand plan to reactivate the Silk Road, the central land route, and make it the monopoly link between Europe and China. Monopolization was to be achieved by war: primarily, against the Golden Horde, the mastery of his principal rival, on the northern land route; secondarily, against the states of western Persia and the Mongols to the east in order to place the Silk Road under unified control politically; and finally agaist India, Egypt and China.

Early in his career, he took the title or epithet 'Sahib Qiran' symbolized by three circlets forming a triangle. It was an astrological term which meants 'Lord of the Fortunate Conjuncture'. It expressed his sense not just of balancing or juggling ruler, nomads and sedentarists, as his predecessors had done, but of integrating them into a dynamic institutional system.


The first Ming ruler, the Hung-wu emperor (1368-1398), sent embassies to former Yuan (a part of Mongol kingdom) tributaries asking that the Ming be recognized as the new overlords. One of these reached Samarkand in 1395 and was promptly imprisoned by Tamerlane who was already planning his campaign to control the Silk Road, restore the Yuan, equal Jenghiz Khan and surpass Alexander. The second Ming ruler, the Yung-lo emperor (1402-1424), anticipated an invasion from Tamerlane and sent another embassy to Samarkand. He too was imprisoned. In 1405, the Yung-lo emperor launched the first of his great naval expeditions to the west under the Muslim eunuch Cheng Ho. The primary purpose of these missions was to end China's isolation in the face of an attack from Tamerlane.

Without taking the advice of his generals to remain in Samarkand until the spring, Timur and his army planned to advance northwards without delays, encamp at various points near the river Jaxartes and wait for the first sign of spring to strike towards China. They left Samarkand early in January on a day chosen by the astrologers as auspicious. Thus Tamerlane led an enormous army and departed on his last and most fantastic campaign to conquer China when he was close to seventy years old. He was too weak to walk and had to be carried in a litter. Toward the end of January, they reached Utrar. There Timur's health had suffered from the severity of the journey and he was seriously ill, On 17 or 18 February 1405, Tamerlane died. His body was carried back and buried at the Gur-i-Mir, Samarkand

Even though Tamerlane never successfully invaded Ming China, his threat to do so had a profound impact there.

| Silkroad Foundation | © 1997-2000

[Jay Bee]

Two last-minute nit-picks

In the Inca city list: Cajamarca, not Caramarca; Tiahuanaco, not Tihuanaco.

In the Phoenician/Carthaginian city list: Ebussus and Eivissa are the same city, today's Ibiza

[Wernazuma III]

thanks jay bee. The Incan names were typos, didn't know that about Ibiza.