Apolyton season 3: The flag wars

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Thanks, Siro!

No, thank you!

Imran, I thought you already admitted that Sharon wasn't the cause to this?

[MrFun]

Mad Monk, that's a beautiful flag you're waving.

[LTEC!]

Brought my flag!

[Jon Miller]

I don't have flag

Jon Miller

[DanS]

Flags are cheap compared to the Almighty Dollar.

Carry On.

[Az]

hey, I have a flag too!

[DarkCloud]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
And there's me thinking this pathetic flag-waving is the cause of the problem, erecting artificial barriers, crapping on other people to benefit oneself. It's ridiculous

That's why my avatar has BOTH flags

[MrFun]

Originally posted by DarkCloud


That's why my avatar has BOTH flags

That just means you're not capable of forming a legitimate opinion on ME issues.

[axi]

You guys are unbelievable! I am 3-4 without access to the internet and when I finally get to browse Apolyton, expecting to see hevy criticism of the Zionist aggression, I only see support! Shame to those who support the Zionist fascists!

I will display the Israel flag as my avatar for about a week, to show my support.

Your support to the murders and the concentration camps?

Should the United States have never taken an offensive against the terrorists in Afghanistan??

Exactly!!

As for MtG:

I put mine up because of the constant slamming of Israel by the same people who rationalize and excuse Palestinian terrorism and arab agression. This way, my Israeli friends here and elsewhere know that some people still stand by them.

Especially when we have three guys here (don't know if Yoav and Taurus post here at all anymore, and I don't know if Mark is beyond military service age) who are very close to service age in the IDF, and it may well be their asses on the line, and certainly a lot of their friends.

Since I know you enough to know your intelligence, I am really surprised of how much deluded you are.

1. In this forum, there is mysteriously no slamming of Israel by anyone except a few brave souls. Instead there is constant slamming of the Palestinians by people who are indirectly responsible for their demise (Americans).

2. Against people who are commiting the moral crime of giving an excuse to the Zionist aggression, by primarily blaming Arafat and the PLO for the situation (Americans) or by keeping an "equal distances" policy between the Israeli occupation and the Indifada (Europeans), openly declaring that THE INDIFADA SHOULD WIN BY ALL MEANS and that any Palestinian who sacrifices his life for his people's liberty is a HERO and not a terrorist, becomes a must. individual terrorism is no excuse for state terrorism, never is, never was.

3. Since you worry alot about our friends in Isreal, let me ask you this: how come we don't have any Palestinian friends in Apolyton. Well, I guess Palestinians don't have computers and don't play civ; they are lucky to have a proper house and water supply. As for my own accord, I know a few Palestinian students in my university and I care more about them and their families than about the idiots that frequent this site, believing that life is a big game of civ.

4. Siro, Eli, Yoav, Taurus, Dalgetti, etc, had better refuse to serve the IDF beyond the green line, as hundrends of their fellow countrymen have done. This is an unjust war and it is a shame to risk your neck in order to make some Palestinian kid your enemy for life.

Oh - you mean a visit to a holy site of his religion? Yes, nobody should have that freedom. And the poor, innocent, peaceloving Palestinians hadn't been doing anything prior to that, no, of course not. They were really cracking down on Hamas, and doing everything they could to abide by the terms they agreed to at Oslo.

There had been no attacks between 1996 and 2000. The Palestinian organisations started attacking after they figured iut that there wasn't going to be any free Palestinian state after all and that Arafat was doing nothing about it. This was Israel's fault, wasn't it?

[Az]

There had been no attacks between 1996 and 2000. The Palestinian organisations started attacking after they figured iut that there wasn't going to be any free Palestinian state after all and that Arafat was doing nothing about it. This was Israel's fault, wasn't it?

there were attacks. less of them but still ...


just shows me how brainflushed you are.

Sure your palestinian friends will get your support. I guess they're also great marxist revolutionaries. But if you see their background, the culture that they consider themselves part of , the terrible things it does on a daily basis to tens of millions of people , you maybe will change your mind. But I guess not. Your already trapped. Go ahead now.

[axi]

But if you see their background, the culture that they consider themselves part of , the terrible things it does on a daily basis to tens of millions of people , you maybe will change your mind. But I guess not. Your already trapped. Go ahead now.

And what do you say about the culture of the Hagana and the Irgun?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by axi
2. Against people who are commiting the moral crime of giving an excuse to the Zionist aggression, by primarily blaming Arafat and the PLO for the situation (Americans)

If an army of around 30,000 armed men is unable to even try to clamp down on terrorism, what good is Arafat to the peace process?

openly declaring that THE INDIFADA SHOULD WIN BY ALL MEANS and that any Palestinian who sacrifices his life for his people's liberty is a HERO and not a terrorist,

What an evil and ignorant philosophy you seem to cling to in the face of basic morality! The Palestinian practice of human sacrifice has only made things progressively worse for thier people, has not sped up the end of the occupation, and profanes the religion they claim to hold sacred above all else. A suicide bomber in a civilian area is a murderer, nothing more.

There had been no attacks between 1996 and 2000.

That's an out and out lie.

[Eli]

There had been no attacks between 1996 and 2000. The Palestinian organisations started attacking after they figured iut that there wasn't going to be any free Palestinian state after all and that Arafat was doing nothing about it. This was Israel's fault, wasn't it?

So, according to you, when Benjamin "I will not give more than 13% of the territories" Netanyahu was Prime Minister the Palestinians thought that they will get a state and not attacked, but when Ehud "take it all" Barak was Prime Minister they realised that they're not going to get a state and opened fire?

[axi]

What an evil and ignorant philosophy you seem to cling to in the face of basic morality! The Palestinian practice of human sacrifice has only made things progressively worse for thier people, has not sped up the end of the occupation, and profanes the religion they claim to hold sacred above all else. A suicide bomber in a civilian area is a murderer, nothing more.

The fact that you and I don't support suicide bombing doesn't mean that we should support the oppression of the occupation. Yet you have part of this guilt by letting your government support the oppresor state as I have, by not pressing my govt enough to take some action against the oppressor state.

As for the bombers themselves, I personally find them much more heroic than the average Israeli or American soldier who are murdering civilians from the safety of their vehicles. These people who blow themselves up have reached the dead end of self sacrifice for a reason: their people are suffering and are helpless against an all-powerful opponent. Their targetting of civilians is of course wrong but it is no worse than what you Americans have done in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and elsewhere. The only difference is that they fight for a just cause, while the Isrealis and the Americans are fighting for domination over other peoples.

[DinoDoc]

I notice that you didn't touch the part about Arafat's 30,000 strong army. Or your lie about there being no terrorist attacks between 1996 and 2000. It's OK. You don't have to defend the indefensible if you don't want to.

Originally posted by axi
The fact that you and I don't support suicide bombing doesn't mean that we should support the oppression of the occupation.

You just said that you supported suicide bombers targeting civilians. Something about seeing them a heroic or somesuch other nonsense.

As for the bombers themselves, I personally find them much more heroic

That's the problem I have with your POV. You persist in seeing out and out murder of civilians as being justified on somesort of cosmic level. I just can not grasp it because the act seems to serve no useful purpose and by any objective measure has not sped up the end of the occupation.

[Az]

Originally posted by axi


And what do you say about the culture of the Hagana and the Irgun?

that will be the zionist "culture" . It has both european elements and elements of the East. Yair was a poet, publishing many songs. People strived to build a country for the jews to live in , to escape the oppression of other states. Our country has freedom of speech, and pluralism , that is "western" , and much more heartiness , and informalism, that more "eastern".

And of course , you didn't even try to answer my question , because you're so blind. So completely blind, and ignoring the dangers that we ,and all other people that want to see themselves free and equal face. The orthodox Islamic preaching and the social structure it brings with itself.

As for the bombers themselves, I personally find them much more heroic than the average Israeli or American soldier who are murdering civilians from the safety of their vehicles

here lies a mind , so extremist and fundamentalistic , that is probably beyond correction.

[Bereta_Eder]

Terrorism is the fruit of oppression.

Of course noone is going to admit American murders and Israeli murders. That's why there are palestinian murders.

The whole world is shouting against Sharon's offensive and the massacre of 200 Palestinians, their families and their children humiliated.

Noone here speaks about this.

Israeli soldiers (most of them) act like punks murdering and pillaging against defenseless people and yet all is ok.

And then you ask why they blow themselves up?

Of course it's wrong but wrong is also the state terrorism.

Unfortunately, I am starting to believe that israel does not want a Palestinian state to be formed. Thus the murders and humilation that fuel suicide bombers who ultimately kill the hopes of a palestinian state.



Avis personel.

[Bereta_Eder]

Let palestine be formed and then you have the whole world fighting with you against terrorism if it will still exist.

As long as this does not happen, there is no point in condemning it because it will go no.

But it suits some people that it goes on.

And these people play their necks as well as their peoples necks in this.

Sharon is as bad as your next suicide bomber. Worse, since he is democratically elected if you think about it.

Noone talks about the Israelis who are against this course of action too.

[DinoDoc]

Aside from being short on facts and long on assumptions, you seem to have a more consistent POV on this matter than axi and I have to give you mad props for that!

D@mn, you had to go and ruin my compliment by posting something stupid before I could post.

[Az]

Terrorism is the fruit of oppression.

no . Terrorism is the fruit of a rabid crazy ideology.

.

The whole world is shouting against Sharon's offensive and the massacre of 200 Palestinians, their families and their children humiliated.

massacre. well , o.k. I'll start using using unfit terms for things as well. Let's call every palestinian terror act a 'Holocaust' .

Israeli soldiers (most of them) act like punks murdering and pillaging against defenseless people and yet all is ok.

and you know that from what?



and after all said and done , Axi , I really think it wasn't wise to post under two different logins in the same time

[Bereta_Eder]

Look Dinodoc, people like you are as much the cause of the problem as Sharon.

You have eyes but yet you do not see.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by paiktis22
Look Dinodoc, people like you are as much the cause of the problem as Sharon.

I think that terrorism should be condemned. You seem to think that the purposeful murder of civilians is a good and noble act. Who's a part of the problem again?

[Bereta_Eder]

The part of the problem is you throwing accusations of supporting terrorism and by doing that permitting the oppression, murder and humiliation to continue and the problem itself to perpetuate.


You hide behind what suits you and prolong the problem and the loss of human lives.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by paiktis22
The part of the problem is you throwing accusations of supporting terrorism

Moneypenny, I only make such "accusations," as you so quaintly put it, when a person makes the statement that he/she sees the purposeful murder of innocent men, women, and children in a positive light. As such when I make the sharge, it isn't completely without merit.

and by doing that permitting the oppression, murder and humiliation to continue and the problem itself to perpetuate.

My support for the Palestinian right to a Nation-State doesn't keep me from condemning attacks on civillians and from seeing such attacks as wholly unjustified in any context. Can you say the same?

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by DinoDoc


Moneypenny, I only make such "accusations," as you so quaintly put it, when a person makes the statement that he/she sees the purposeful murder of innocent men, women, and children in a positive light. As such when I make the sharge, it isn't completely without merit.

You repeat what suits you

My support for the Palestinian right to a Nation-State doesn't keep me from condemning attacks on civillians and from seeing such attacks as wholly unjustified in any context. Can you say the same?

There IS no support for ending the murders and humiliations of the Palestinian people. In fact there IS silent consent and that is all it takes. So you are a part of the problem.
Empty words never made a difference.

[DinoDoc]

Sometimes talking to you, paiktis, is akin to banging my head against a brickwall. You only listen to what suits your limited worldveiw and ignore the rest. Whatever floats your boat, I guess. I'll wait for axi to come back and hope that I can get a productive conversation out of him.

[Sirotnikov]

axi, your resources (indymedia i imagine) give you a very distorted vision of the world.

It is sad that people like you only see the world in two shades - opressors and opressed, and can't see anything beyond that.

It's true, Israel does opress the palestinians and they do deserve a state.

However, the Palestinian leadership did all it could to hurt Israel and support terror. And now, it's time for Israel to clear up the territories from the terrorist encampments that Arafat allowed to be created.

And unfortunately, due to this being a heavily populated urban area, sometimes innocent people are paying with their lives.

However, you should be ashamed to call the killing in battle, of murderous palestinain terrorists, who sniper at Israeli children and who hold their own neighbours hostage.

No one supporting Israel supports the continuationg of opression. As you could wittness in 2000, most Israelis do not support continuation of opression.

Do not be mistaken - this act is not one of opression but of liberation. We are freeing the palestinian people from those who cause harm to their goal. You must understand, terrorists are affecting Israeli public opinion. It makes Israelis feel unsafe. If Israelis feel unsafe - they will keep electing hardliners.

After this operation ends, hopefully after completeion and success, there will be much much less terror acts, and in that enviroment, Israelis will elect a new peacefull PM and will be willing to make peace.

Arafat's fault is that he has been educating against compromise, against peace, against normalization, against living side by side. It starts in schools, where children are taught about the "evil Jews", through military summer-schools where children are taught to "attack" Jews, to TV shows and religious sermons calling for hatred against Jews.

Read www.memri.org www.pmw.org.il www.imra.org and open your eyes.

[Bereta_Eder]

The only contribution to this is your insistence on saying "condemn suicide attacks, condemn suicide attacks condemn them condemn them condemn them".
Relax silly, we condemn them. That does not mean they will not go on.

Now is your turn to condemn Israeli aggression and murders. But you won't. You hide behind the saying that it is being done to stop terrorim or some equal lie.

The problem is you.

[Bereta_Eder]

Dinodoc the only brick wall is you.
The only time you understand anything is when your own people are getting killed. Sad fact. Very.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by paiktis22
blah, blah, blah

As I said, I'm waiting for someone else with whom I can carry an intelligent conversation with. The only candidate I've seen so far is axi, your Greek compatriot.