The Care, Feeding, and Death of Neighboring Civs

[Theseus]

It was sort of by accident. I have finally gotten to the point where I want to purify my continent.

I've been playing with MPPs, and got every remaining civ to declare war on Egypt... it's hilarious btw, there's not a single other war going on.

Anyway, I figured I'd Trade Embargo the hell out of Cleo as well. When I tried with Germany, I realized I had never paid for diplo relations with them or France. When I did so, and saw both of their capitols... totally built out, with totally upgraded military!! I checked F11, which I hardly ever bother with, and saw that Germany is the board leader in literacy, and France is just ahead of me in population. I then checked the trade board, and saw that they each have existing trades with every civ (except Egypt).

I am very impressed. I am very angry. Gonna have to let off a little steam... buh-bye, Xerxes.

[Arrian]

I'm still (in installments) working on my "oops, I won by domination" Japan game. I went back a few years and didn't capture two Russian cities. Instead, I ended my war with Russia, which is hopelessly crippled anyway, and am now just sending over Galleons full of infantry and Cavalry, with a couple of Cavalry armies too. The next army I build should allow the Pentagon, now that I think about it.

France and Russia (only AI's left) have built 1 city each on tiny tundra islands in the middle of nowhere. I just can't help it... I think I'm gonna wipe out their entire home continent, of which I own about 1/4 to 1/3 now. I'll raze everything, and leave them each their size 1 tundra cities. I've been building privateers (I have about 10... and have a city putting out 1 per turn), so any attempts to re-settle will fail. I will easily have enough privateers to totally surround those two islands. Hah! Hah-ha! Hah-ha-hah!

rpodos... err.. Theseus, why the name change?

By the way, the comments about horrible tedium illustrate perfectly why I can't handle large maps. Huge maps are out of the question due to the age of my computer, but Large maps are fine in terms of AI moves... it's MY moves that get too long. The world is just too damn big.

Oh, a funny thing happened last night. I started up a game as Japan, and upon launching my initial horseman rush against China, no less than four other civs allied with them and jumped in against me! Heh. It was funny, the pop-ups just kept on coming. I didn't play it out (not b/c of the alliances, I hadn't even seen a non-chinese unit yet). Actually, half my army was destroyed by spearmen and (defending) archers. The casualties were appalling, like the one spearman who killed 5 horsemen. I've never seen the like, except for cities built on hills (these weren't - they were towns on grassland). I just got a really bad string of RN rolls, including the retreat rolls, and lost a shocking number of troops...something like 10 out of my 20 horsies to take two towns. Ya win some, ya lose some. Hell, like the horseman of mine in the next game I was playing that killed a pikeman w/o hit point loss.

-Arrian

[Theseus]

Actually, you and Aeson, and I guess Vel, inspired me. "rpodos" i sort of boring as a member of a community.

I did look up the origins of each of your names... very cool.

I tried Leonidas, Xenophon, Alcibiades, Temujin, and a couple of others. Lucked out with Theseus.

I figure I'm gonna be around for a while.

R

[Theseus]

That is a very funny image... total demolition, with 1 tile tundra cities remaining... I think this Roman game is gonna end up the same, but without the 1 tile cities. Oh, that means dead civs, hmmm.

I'm actually having fun with the late game. I'm in total build mode, at peace for once. I'm about to mess with the Persians again, and then when I get Tanks... I've already got 4 empty Armies waiting.

My solution to tedium: I just automated my entire Worker force (82). Just hold shift-a down and read a book for about 4-5 minutes.

R

[notyoueither]

rpodos/Theseus.

A word of advice. Double Login's are strictly against the rules of Poly. I doubt you intended any harm, so hopefully they will be very lenient. Some people have been banned for DL's.

Contact an admin (may I suggest MarkG) and explain what you have done and why you did it the way you did. Maybe they will help sort things out for you. I hope so, I have become kind of fond of reading your "buh-bye [CivName]" commentaries. So I hope you stick around.

[Theseus]

Thanks for the tip, nye.

No intention of harm, or even of ever using the rpodos log-in again.

I'll contact MarkG.

BTW, talking of buh-bye, the war with Persia has commenced. I still have never gotten a good answer about the mechanics of war-weariness.

Here's what just happened:

Egypt has been destroyed. Playing games, along the way I gave some of Cleo's cities to England and China, so they're on my continent now too.

We are all up to cavalry, infantry, and artillery.

Both Persia and Rome have MPPs with China. I just parked a 4-unit defensive Army (3 X Legion, 1 X Infantry, conscript btw) on a mountain next to Persian Herat.

Xerxes demanded I get outta town, I called him scum. Barfight ensues.

His Cav capture a couple of my slave workers, no big whup.

China declares war on Persia (so, lesson learned, declare war but don;t attack... a bunch of my cities just went into WLTKD mode too).

I pity da fool.

Actually, I've been playing heavy builder, so my offensive military is kinda light. I figure on playing a defensive war until Tanks, picking off units in the field with Infantry. I have a largish number of conscript Infantry (from 12-pop cities) that I have parked on mountains at the front, so I'm hoping for a bunch of promotions.

[Shaka II]

Originally posted by Txurce
What I would like is to find a way to sustain competitive balance for much of the game. Rather than create a world of vassals, I want to create a world that has at least two civs who are permanent serious rivals. To accomplish this, I'm considering playing one of two ways. If I start with a bad position, my work is cut out for me. But with a good starting position, I'm considering limiting myself to 16 cities - the optimal pre-corruption number on a standard map. The challenge would be to out-research the AI while defending myself against civs that aren't smaller or too far behind technologically (if behind at all). A side benefit would be a lot less micro-managing of units.

I don't know if this is possible, by the way, and won't try until I get a few more wins on Emperor under my belt.

You are quite right; switch to Emperor. Rpodos and Arrian are playing Monarch, but on Emperor, it is not that easy. I usually have a match right to the end. I have eked out Space wins with as few as 16 cities (Babs) or domination with 83 cities (Zulu) on a standard size map. It's always a challenge, with the possible exception of an ICS type strategy.

In fact I would add at least another category on to Rpodos/Theseus list: Civs to fear, possibly pay tribute to, and/or MPP/Ally with through much of the game, until it is you're time to assume leadership. Quite often this is late Industrial or at the onset of the Modern era.

Dominae - regarding an XP Canadian civ, how about the Hudson Bay Company as a special small wonder (if that's possible). Or there could be an HBC ("Here before Christ") type UU. Perhaps a fur trapper/explorer unit, historically the Coureurs de Bois ("runners of the woods"). The unit could have normal Explorer capabilities, but if furs, are found, a percentage of the resulting fur trade could be acquired. Oh well, just an idea.

[Txurce]

Theseus, you learn something new every day. I didn't know you could look at the F11 chart and see anything other than where you stood!

Shaka, I've been playing Emperor for my last six or so games, and it has been a challenge, although two of them have been my most decisive Civ3 victories to date. The last two, however, remind me of Arrian's recent Japanese defeat. I played the Zulus in both.

In the first game, the Persians sealed off my civ on a peninsula with a spearman just after my scout trekked north. I suspect a cheat (however clever), as it was clearly penning me in, yet hadn't scouted beyond that point, and so had no reason to know that I had no back door. I fell hopelessly behind as a result, but fought my way to cavalry and #4 civ status by the 1400s, despite having nothing bigger than a size 6 town, and no buildings other than temples and barracks. My only conceivable goal was domination, but when the Germans attacked, with their towns defended by infantry, I packed it in.

My second Zulu game was a losing stalemate due to my refusing to pay tribute to those bigger than me, and neglecting to establish embassies as soon as possible (a common errort of mine). By 500BC, all seven other countries had declared war on me! I fought them all off (Immortals, bowmen, swordsmen, archers) without losing a city, using a combination of impis, swordsmen and horsemen. This was very rewarding, and fun of a stressful sort. In the process I managed to raze three English cities and fill in my subcontinent, but I couldn't get out to pillage the Persian and German iron supplies, and decided I was too far behind by 400AD, when the Iroquois started landing troops in my rear.

Apart from the obvious errors that I made, I think it may have been a mistake to build a scout first (on top of the one I start with). I never got enough on a standard map with the second scout to make up for the lost time building a settler.

[Theseus]

It's funny, I did think of including dominant neighbors in the list, but I categorically (almost) will not pay ransom. As to strong MPP candidates, to me that is part of the metagame, so they just fall under world powers.

I like your ideas for Canada. The fur concept sparked an idea: To further differentiate civs, each should get a special benefit from one of the luxury or bonus resources, aligned with their RL history:

America - Gems / Wheat
Aztecs - Gems / Gold
Iroquois - Furs / Game
China - Silks / Wheat
Japan - Silks / Whales
India - Ivory / Cattle
Germany - Wine / Game
Russia - Furs / Game
France - Wine / Fold
England - Dyes / Fish
Rome - Incense / Game
Egypt - Dyes / Gold
Greece - Incense / Fish
Babylon - Spices / Wheat
Persia - Spices / Wheat
Zululand - Ivory / Game

Maybe extra commerce, or trigger GA, or lessen corruption. Something worthwhile, but not unbalancing.

This would do two things: create a supply / demand market for certain resources, and change the "desire" for certain city sites.

[Theseus]

Txurce, you're right... I used F11 to see that I was NOT the leader. In establishing the embassy with France I saw they were bigger than me. I have no idea how I got the impression that Germany was the literacy leader... probably a subconscious justification for planning to raze Bismarck's ass!!

[Theseus]

I will admit that Monarch is easier, making finding the right "balance" hard. I really feel like I've been improving my game on it though, esp. metagame aspects.

After I finish my Roman game (I will finish, I will finish...), I'm going to step up to Emperor again.

My fear is that early warmongering is gonna get me crushed, much like Txurce's two examples. Shaka, what is the earliest that you go to war?

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Dominae
I too played far too much Wizardry 7: Crusaders of the Dark Savant (managed to finish it in oh, around 100 hours or so), and I just recently completed Wizardry 8.

Sorry, I know it's off topic, but what did you think of Wizardry 8? Anywhere near as good as 7? I bought Nemisis years ago, it was such a let down. I'm somewhat hesitant about spending my last few dollars on another Wizardry game now.

[Txurce]

Theseus, I don't think early warmongering will get you crushed on Emperor. More likely, being warred upon too early will do the trick! If you can get a decent militart up and running, you can hold your own as long as the AI doesn't gang up on you. Just establish embassies and make some alliances. More importantly from my perspective, pick a civ that will allow you to succeed at that essential early warmongering.

I just dropped my third Zulu game. I built no scouts, crushed the Iroquois with horsemen and impi, just about caught up in tech heading into the middle ages... and realized that some glitch prevented me from establishing embassies, even though I had writing, and had already established one much earlier. I didn't want to go any further and see that backfire on me again, so I quit. Ironically, the game went well enough to make clear that the Zulu aren't for me. Expansionist isn't all that great on a standard map, military is good for GLs but I don't always get one in my first war, and all of a sudden the future yawns before me without any of my favorite traits: religious, industriuous and scientific. Most important from the fun perspective, the Impis are a specialty unit, good for pillaging and defense, but too expensive to serve as JW-style cannon fodder. I don't like the idea of having a UU that isn't my main unit in its heyday (horsemen are).

[Dominae]

Aeson, if you liked Wizardry 7 (which I'm assuming you did, given you spent so many hours playing it), I can confidently say you'll love Wizardry 8. I won't go into details, so I suggest you get a copy and roll up some characters; you'll take a nice long break from Civ3, trust me. Here's a little spoiler to get you interested: you get to have Vi in your party!

(I don't know if you care about this, but Wizardry 8 was voted best RPG last year hands down by pretty much all computer game publications).

IMO, a great game.


Dominae

[Aeson]

Thanks! *starts counting his pennies*

[Arrian]

Theseus,

Heh, good to hear you will be around for a while.

Yeah, I just love the idea of a size 1 tundra island city being the only AI settlement. It brings back fond memories of CivII, and it is the ultimate expression of ultimate power. I think I will destroy the French utterly, and then surround the Russian island (it's two squares) entirely with privateers. I'm a baaaaaad man.

I actually haven't touched my computer since last week, so I have no new updates or insights.

With regard to difficulty level, I like Monarch (for now) precisely because there is more room for error. I'm still experimenting with the game, trying to figure out the best way to achieve my always-sought-after "ultimate power." I figure I will probably play CivIII as long as I played CivII... and that was 5 years. I've got plenty of time to deal with the higher difficulties.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Ok, one of the major obstacles to "milking" a game for score is culture. Too much culture. Avoiding a cultural victory can be difficult. Thus far, I've heard one way of dealing with it: selling your cultural improvements, particularly libraries and universities.

Then it struck me... what about mobilization? Though I've never actually tested it, the manual says mobilization will cut your cultural output in half. Therefore, you could significantly prolong a game without going to each city and selling cultural buildings. Further, if you really wanted to, you could do both - sell your cultural stuff, rebuild the really important ones (temples/cathedrals/colloseums), and then mobilize. That's a lot of extra turns, no?

Take my Japanese game as an example. I will be building no more cities. Every city has what it needs. It is now just a matter of finishing my railroads, irrigating some more and cleaning some pollution. Sure, there is the small matter of destroying France and sending dear Cathy off to her tundra isle, but mobilization hardly gets in the way of that. Frankly, so long as I can still build "wealth" under mobilization, I can't see why I shouldn't mobilize until the end.

Thoughts?

-Arrian

[Aeson]

I think there is a happiness penalty for mobilization. I would only use it if absolutely necessary. Like if you had sold off every cultural improvement already except un-sellable ones.

[Arrian]

Ah-hah, so there is a potential pitfall. Does anyone have confirmation of this unhappiness penalty? Does mobilization create war weariness?

-Arrian

[Aeson]

It might just be an indirect effect of staying at war for long periods of time in a representative government. It's been a while since I've used it.

Mobilization ends when you make peace right? So you would have to be at war to stay in Mobilization. This would quickly undermine the happiness in either a Republic or a Democracy.

[Arrian]

No, that's just it... you can mobilize when at peace. Then you can just stay there. In fact, you must make peace in order to get out of mobilization -> therefore, if you mobilize while not at war, you just get into a war and then make peace so that you can toggle out of mobilization.

-Arrian

[Aeson]

Ok, just checked and mobilization doesn't have any inherant unhappiness. You could keep double the number of cultural happiness improvements by using it, good thinking Arrian!

[Arrian]

Muwahahaha!

It's an exploit, of course, in that one would be using mobilization for something other than its intended purpose. But only those who actually wish to delay victory would use it thus, so I figure no harm, no foul.

Ahh, time to go home. Time flies when you're postin' on 'poly.

-Arrian

[Harovan]

That mobilization thing is a really sweet hint, thank you Arrian ! Although I doubt I will do it in my current game (GOTM6), because milking a warlord game for a few hundreds more score ain't fun for me (probably I will win either by culture or conquest), I will no doubt try this in future games.

As for your time to go home... it's always interesting to see the schedule of people in other timezones. Sometimes I try to guess where people live by this. For example, when it's after-lunch time for me, Arrians 'Poly time begins. It's pretty easy to make difference of Americans, Europeans and people from Far East. The only exception is Aeson. He posts at all times, and if I didn't know he's American, I would suppose he's in a jet flying around the world... Do you have a RL far from 'Poly and CivFanatics, Aeson?

[Arrian]

Sir Ralph,

Heh, I hope you didn't just figure out where I'm from, given that "Bristol, CT, USA" is right under my name

I loaded up my Japanese game last night and mobilized. No harm done, and culture is indeed halved. I literally have nothing left to build (well, ok, there are like two cities where I don't have a hospital but that's no big deal). I can wipe out Russia and France whenever I choose... I will probably wait for Tanks (I'm at mass production now... just short of 1500AD). Anyway, it works, but of course only if you have fully developed cities and don't mind being restricted to military units/buildings or wealth.

-Arrian

[Harovan]

He he he, Arrian, wasn't Bristol a city in England? Kidding of course, but some (including me) don't write their location in the profile. Or can you explain, where "orangesoda" is?

[Aeson]

The only exception is Aeson. He posts at all times, and if I didn't know he's American, I would suppose he's in a jet flying around the world...

shhhh... no one's supposed to know about my jet! I'd get audited by the IRS for sure.

[Arrian]

Uh-oh, you gave yourself away, Aeson, by mentioning the IRS.
Bastards... I recently wrote a rather large check to my uncle sammy.

[Theseus]

Arrian,

Not too far from Meriden, right?

I was just up there visiting a buddy from college.

Re Aeson, I believe that he lives in appr. 150 different cities, and is intent on living in every city in the world.

[Harovan]

According to Aesons GOTM6 spoiler post in CivFanatics, he lives in at least 300 cities What about a new measurement unit? 1 Aeson (1 Ae) = 250 cities? 10 cities would be 40 mAe, 50 cities 200 mAe and so on.

Oops. dragging a serious strategy discussion more and more offtopic, shame on me. well, the 1.21f readme is here.