Are you prepared to die for your country?

If there isn't a dire need for troops, why would I join the service? It's a waste of time.

Sure its good for people with no place else to go, or gun freaks who just need to shoot people.

Not serving in the military has nothing to do with wanting a war or not. I know the horrors of war and have had many family members involved in wars.

IMO, to solve the world's problems, there needs to be a decisive war where one ideology reigns supreme. War (not conflicts) unites. Look at the result of some of the major wars.

Civil War: United America.... this if often called the real Revolution.

WWII: United Western Europe

The United States has the potential, by conventional means, to form a set of task forces that can prevent nuclear launches by every power. If I were in command, I would develop the capability to strategically disable every non-allied nations' nuclear capabilities to prevent MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction). Sure, the casualties would probably eclipse one billion, but if there is a decisive victory, it would usher in a golden age of mankind never before seen.

Just for the record, many military strategists have never served in the military. The military trains you how to be a grunt, not a leader.

[Heresson]

No, but I'm always prepared to send someone to do that

[Zoid]

Originally posted by paiktis22
You know I think they are laws (in Greek military code and I imagine elsewhere) which do give you the right to disobey the order of a superior if this is wrong.

Now I have no clue what would that mean in actual combat but there are these laws.

I'd have no problem obeying orders as long as they are just. An order to execute unarmed innocents would propably find me turning my gun the other way and pointing to the one that gave the order.
But that is all in theory, see. Unless you're there you'd never know.

Yes, there is such a thing as private morale code. But it´s easier to deny responsibility by claiming that you only obeyed orders.

IIRC that was the most common defense in the Nürnberg trials after WWII. "Hey, I didn´t know that they killed all those jews, and besides I was just obeying orders"

Or in Vietnam: "Hey I didn´t know that all those women and children weren´t really VC. But what the hell they´re only gooks, and besides I was only obeying orders...

Well, that makes it alrighty then, does it?

[Zoid]

Originally posted by SlowwHand

And Kamrat, wtf is he doing, giving his opinion here, rather than being out talking face-to-face?
Another nimrod better at theory than practice.

You talking to me? When have I ever complained about pseudo-discussions on Poly? I see this as intellectual exercise/relaxation (depending on the subject).

And I AM out there several times a week, working for the party, Friends of the earth, ATTAC, etc...

[SlowwHand]

No, Kamrat.
You were chastizing Herr, and I agree with you.
I'm asking , Why is he giving his opinion, instead of "being out"?

[Zoid]

Sorry, Sloww. Misunderstood you there...

And there is always those who think you should do more worthwile things with your time. (My mother for one... ) I usually just ignore them, but this one was exeptionally whiny, I just couldn´t let that pass...

[markusf]

Originally posted by Kamrat X


Yes, there is such a thing as private morale code. But it´s easier to deny responsibility by claiming that you only obeyed orders.

IIRC that was the most common defense in the Nürnberg trials after WWII. "Hey, I didn´t know that they killed all those jews, and besides I was just obeying orders"

What about the people who droped the a-bomb in japan,
shouldn't they be tried for crimes against humanity? Or people behind US foriegn policy that kills millions?

In every conflict those in power on the losing side are the "evil" ones and are punished. Those in power on the winning side are immune to ridicule.

Or in Vietnam: "Hey I didn´t know that all those women and children weren´t really VC. But what the hell they´re only gooks, and besides I was only obeying orders...

Well, that makes it alrighty then, does it?

IF the US where to invade mexico what would happen to the average person there? Pretty much absolutely nothing. Who would be the losers in that situation? The only people who have anything to lose are those currently in power, and those with a lot of money and investments in infustructure. So in the end both sides come up with propaganda to try and make people fight for them.

When the US gets into big wars, its not because its "just" or fighting oppression etc. When people die fighting for the US they don't die "liberating" some oppressed people, they are dieing to save US economic interests, such as oil, or the right to open a macdonalds or the right for US companies to have access to cheap labour etc etc etc. Why should people die fighting for the richer to get richer?

[Zoid]

markusf: I´m not sure wether you agree with me or not. But I agree to what you say anyhow...

[markusf]

Originally posted by Kamrat X
markusf: I´m not sure wether you agree with me or not. But I agree to what you say anyhow...

I agree with you, just stating that in the vast majority of wars it really doesn't matter who wins them, the majority of peoples lives are not going to be changed. When it comes right down to it, your fighting for the rich to get richer...

[TCO]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Wow. Way to totally mis-characterize those of us who won't die because we believe our nation has no moral authority to force us to.

You're such a talky little worm. Stick to imaginary BB wars. People like tub will take care of the real ones...

[TCO]

Originally posted by David Floyd
I know, but the odds would be low...and the cost/benefit analysis favors me, in my opinion.

worm.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
No, I'd be no use dead. Hell, I'd be no use fighting. Give me a job away from the frontline where I can help the country with my brain not my trigger finger.

Frigging worm geek. I bet everybody can come up with some excuse like that. Guess what? Maybe your brains would be useful at the front. But without guts or leadership ability...maybe it would be better to keep you protected by others.

[markusf]

Originally posted by GP


Frigging worm geek. I bet everybody can come up with some excuse like that. Guess what? Maybe your brains would be useful at the front. But without guts or leadership ability...maybe it would be better to keep you protected by others.

uhm... If the US was in danger of being destroyed wouldn't that be the result of a nuclear or chemical war? So there wouldn't be a front.. Just a few people in control rooms pushing launch buttons...

[TCO]

Originally posted by Sava
The United States has the potential, by conventional means, to form a set of task forces that can prevent nuclear launches by every power. If I were in command, I would develop the capability to strategically disable every non-allied nations' nuclear capabilities to prevent MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction). Sure, the casualties would probably eclipse one billion, but if there is a decisive victory, it would usher in a golden age of mankind never before seen.

Stick to video games, son.

Just for the record, many military strategists have never served in the military. The military trains you how to be a grunt, not a leader.

This is based on how much service? Which military strategists? (FYI: Sid Meier is not Alfred Thayer Mahan....)

[TCO]

Originally posted by markusf


uhm... If the US was in danger of being destroyed wouldn't that be the result of a nuclear or chemical war? So there wouldn't be a front.. Just a few people in control rooms pushing launch buttons...

Markus,

1. Wombat posited the front.

2. People have been talking about pushbutton war for the last 50 years...we ain't there yet.

[markusf]

Originally posted by GP


Markus,

1. Wombat posited the front.

2. People have been talking about pushbutton war for the last 50 years...we ain't there yet.

Ok.. What possible scenario can you think of that would require the US commiting more then a million troops? The US has the ability to load nuclear weapons on bombers and fly them around the world, and they would sooner do that then commit large number of troops.

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by GP
Frigging worm geek. I bet everybody can come up with some excuse like that. Guess what? Maybe your brains would be useful at the front. But without guts or leadership ability...maybe it would be better to keep you protected by others.

No, fuck off GP. I have every respect for people who will fight and risk death, and die for their country for any reason.
But I'm not a soldier. The question is "are you prepared". No I'm not. If I joined the army (which I won't) then maybe I'll get prepared. But the whole war cannot be fought on the front, and there is no point having people there who are wasting resources, and causing problems, when they could be a hell of a lot more use away from the action. Its not a case of pussying out, but I would help my country (any country) more off the front than on.

Maybe my brains would be useful at the front. Maybe they'd be as useful or more useful at the back. Does it matter?
And FYI, I can lead, and I'm not gutless. I'm pointing out that wasting a life, rather than using it as effectively as it can be, is fruitless, and pointless.

[Carver]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

and yes, more often than not, i will support tribalism over moralism.

moralism is futile IMO.

Look everybody, Ariel Sharon is on Apolyton!

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Carver


Look everybody, Ariel Sharon is on Apolyton!

He´s been here a while actually...

[loinburger]

The more relevant question for me is, "Is your country prepared to let you fight and possibly die for it?" In my case the answer is a resounding "no," so it doesn't very much matter whether or not I want to join the armed forces--they permanently disqualified me, end of story.

[Guynemer]

Well, maybe if you didn't wear lederhosen all the time. EDIT: didn't know how to spell lederhosen.

[loinburger]

Originally posted by Guynemer
Well, maybe if you didn't wear lederhosen all the time.

I suppose so. The psychological portion of my physical went something like this...

Doctor: "Are you crazy?"
loinburger: "Nope."
D: "Then why are you wearing lederhosen?"
l: "BECAUSE LORD SNOGGO DEMANDS IT OF ME, YOU HEATHEN!"

Kinda shot myself in the foot on that one...

[KrazyHorse]

When Malcolm X was called up for WWII (he was still just a gangster running the streets) he apparently asked the Army psychiatrist when they would get guns, and then whispered in a conspiratorial tone that he was looking forward to "shooting a few crackers".

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Kamrat X
Siro, you must be the perfect soldier... Don´t question your superiors and be grateful for the chance to die for your country... Your body is just simmering with nationalist testosterone isn´t it?

Questioning my superiors when it comes to tactical decisions and illegal orders - sure.

Questioning strategy ? much less.

If ~70% of Israel voted Sharon in office, and supports the incursion as a strategic move, I as a citizen do not have the moral right, to refuse support of my country just because of political difference of opinion.

I will however disobay illegal orders of targeting civilians or anything similar to it, if it exists.

...or behaves like Israel?

Yeah, right, our soldiers go from house to house and check for terrorists.

That's soooo equivalent with putting 7 million people in the gas chambers.

How come I´m not surprised?

You somehow feel yourself superior. Fine

Wanna have a philosophical discussion?

My whole point, is that moralism is futile since it has to have a society in which to exist.

And society, which you usually reject, is a tribe.

You prefer to define your society according to the people you currently share opinions with, and no one else.

I however, devide people into different circles or "tribes" with me having different relations with different tribes.

A "tribe" is my society. This society gives me power and rights as an individual.

Morality does not exist outside of society, and society, so I have conclued so far, must be comprised of some sor of tribalism, whether on a national or a smaller (or a larger) scale.

You infact prove this point, by having your own morality with in your society, and applying it differently to members of your society and those who aren't.

For instance, you're willing to forgive agression of people who are in your society. For you, your society is those who share your values.

For me, my most important non-private society is people who share my history and heritage - israelis and jews.

[TCO]

Originally posted by markusf



Ok.. What possible scenario can you think of that would require the US commiting more then a million troops? The US has the ability to load nuclear weapons on bombers and fly them around the world, and they would sooner do that then commit large number of troops.

Why a million?

[TCO]

IW, nobody feels useful dead. But why are you so special that others should go to the front and risk their lives rather than you? Go look at your previous post. Your "brain" gets you out of the line of fire. If you do have leadership ability, guts and brains; they could probably use you just fine...

[Immortal Wombat]

But why are you so special that others should go to the front and risk their lives rather than you?

Cos I don't want to!

[Alexander's Horse]

If you ask me am I prepared to die for my country I'd say no because its a stupid question and I'm not a fanatic.

If you ask me am I prepared to risk my life for my country, in the line of duty so to speak, I'd say yes and I have done so several times.

For example I worked at an office overseas which was targeted for a terrorist attack a few years ago and I had to take my turn doing the watch at night. We had good information we were going to be attacked and the building was defended by a company of infantry so this was no namby pamby hoax. Fortunately the terrorists were arrested before they could carry out the attack.

[Natan]

Urban Ranger, Hitler was a vegetarian too, I guess that must be dangerous as well. It was tribalism (Russian, British, Norwegian, Greek, Yugoslav, Russian, Polish and French Nationalisms, not to mention a few other varieties) were what motivated many if not most of those who helped defeat Hitler. Saddam Hussein's Iraq and the Gambino gang were run on family lines, I guess we'd better stop sending mothers' and fathers' day cards.


Paiktis: Israel has the same thing, AFAIK most armies do. Ilegal orders have to be disobeyed. In the IDF lexicon, such orders are said to be "black flag" orders, because that's what they're supposed to raise in the soldiers' minds.


Pretty much every one of my ancestors who came to this country would have been murdered had they not left their home countries. That America let them in, and even more than that, enabled them to prosper in a tolerant environment, means a lot to me. I want to preserve that, and I'm willing to fight to preserve that. To me, the argument that we owe no love for or loyalty to our country because our freedoms are inherent is like a child who says he has no love for or loyalty to his parents because he has a right to be fed, clothed, and educated.

[faded glory]

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat

No, fuck

How the **** do you get that past the Auto-Censor?


****
****
Poo
Wee
Testicles
*****
Hoe
Fag
Ass
Moron
Shitfulbrains


.....