Developers, cheat on us!

Hasdrubal · March 20, 2001, 10:54

Firaxis, please make the AI cheat as much as it neats to beat the human player!

No AI, no matter how much it will be improved (and I hope a lot), can be expected to beat an experienced player by fair means. So let it be by foul means...

All I'm asking for are the meanest, baddest, backstabbing, cheating SOB's ever.

March 20, 2001, 12:38

So...you want a REAL challenge eh Hasdrubal?

Mark_Everson · March 21, 2001, 01:00

I agree completely! It would be best to make the AI of high quality, but failing that... The AI levels should take cheating to a level that will go Far beyond what the designers think is beatable. Otherwise Civ3 will be beaten 'right out of the box' on the highest levels like Civ2 was by experienced players.

That was a crushing disappointment for me with Civ2.

Sean · March 21, 2001, 07:14

If worse comes to worse...and on the highest levels there probably is little way around it. But a fear a dumb AI that cheats is still dumb. That is, they will just use their increased production to build a ridiculas number of out-dated units and this sort of thing, if not actually this example.

colossus · March 21, 2001, 07:33

Although allowing the AI some cheats generally improves their competiveness, but it is also very distasteful to see the AI doing the magics that human players are plainly refused. I would like to see that if the AI could not develop good enough strategy against human players, they should at the very least try to gang up against us. For example, AI are programmed so that they don't fight any war with each other, and trade or gift all their techs to each other. Given that the AI get to build Marco Polo early, they could share all their techs. This should post enough problems for human player.

Daimyo · March 21, 2001, 12:07

I really don't think that to allow the AI to cheat is a good idea.
This would worsen the gameplay... If you want a challenge, play on higher difficulty level. I wonder how many civer's are that **good enough**to beat the AI easily on the toughest level..
[This message has been edited by Daimyo (edited March 21, 2001).]

Zanzin · March 22, 2001, 00:37

Cheating AI!! No!! I'm sick of AI's that cheat! How hard is it to make an AI that is actually geniunely intelligent? Surely it can be done!

GaryGuanine · March 22, 2001, 06:06

It would be very difficult to write an AI that is as "good" as a person. Short of making something as smart as a person, I think it might be impossible. I know that we have a limited scope, as far as the AI doesn't have to do "person" things, but look at the chess computers. Chess has so many fewer combinations than Civ, and look what they need to beat a person honestly at that. Cheating AI will always be there, because a computer program written in the course of a year or so can never be as complex as a human brain. Once we make artificial brains, the computer won't have to cheat.

Gary

DaveV · March 22, 2001, 09:38

quote:

Originally posted by Daimyo on 03-21-2001 11:07 AM
I wonder how many civer's are that **good enough**to beat the AI easily on the toughest level..

Several dozen at least in the strategy forum on this site. Those who can beat the game easily probably only make up a tiny fraction of the people playing the game, but we're a vocal minority...

Insert standard plea for Firaxis to make the AI modifiable by the end user here.

The Viceroy · March 22, 2001, 11:22

Ohh .. AI AI again

Well, if you use a rule based AI, it doesn't take long for even the least experienced civer to work out that the AI always reacts in the same way .. and unfortunatly, nearly all AI's are rule based.

What I have proposed for eons is the partial use of neural nets .. basically, keep the rule base as nature, and allow the AI to learn through nurture .. how does it learn ?? from YOU !!

eventually, a sucessful nuture can be passed to nature .. and failing nature can be removed ..

This evolutionary approach will ensure that each game is unique ..

If AI cheating is to be considered, it should be user controlled .. option to turn it on, and even select the kind of cheating level you want .. so you really can make it impossible for yourself, if you so desire.

------------------
"Wherever wood floats, you will find the British" . Napoleon

The Viceroy · March 22, 2001, 11:23

Duplicated.. sorry

[This message has been edited by The Viceroy (edited March 22, 2001).]

Father Beast · March 22, 2001, 17:40

Have we given up hope on some sort of user adjustable AI, then?
when Xin Yu or somebody can teach the AI their favorite tricks?
is this just a dream?

March 22, 2001, 19:26

It would be nice to the AI which can, over time, catch on to a human player's strategy and use it against him/her....THEN we would have a game!

jglidewell · March 23, 2001, 01:53

'All I'm asking for are the meanest, baddest, backstabbing, cheating SOB's ever'

You see the AI toggling cheat mode. you see the AI eliminating all of your cities. You see the AI add all advances to himsellf. You see the AI build the space ship in one turn.

Is that how you want it to cheat?

If there is any cheating (to circumvent AI bloat code and analysis) then it must be of the form that does not affect player to player interaction.

For example if the AI is cheating and not letting the city go into revolt and I send in a spy to cause civil unrest than it is affecting my game play and wasting my time.

What types of cheating would you allow?

Henrik · March 23, 2001, 06:11

Yeah, an AI that would see: Ah he allways do like that, hmmm...
Then the next time he tries I will do this, hehe

Lord Maxwell · March 23, 2001, 07:15

I would very much like an AI that doesn't cheat at all. I think the main reason so many players can hand a can of whoopass to the AI is that they read forums such as Apolyton. Before reading the apolyton forums I won about half the games on the Thinker level in SMAC. These days I pretty much don't lose a game. (Lost a couple of rounds to ZsoZso's Ultimate Builder Challenge and similar "impossible" settings though.)

The AI needs to learn! Something that I have been pondering for a long time is a slight expansion on the rules+neural net idea above. A rules+neural net+"apolyton for AI" where AI's can turn in good rules, and check new good rules out.

Another way is to do it like crisium is planning to do it for stars supernova. (www.crisium.com) They plan to let you set a time limit for AI pondering of problems: (Like, spend the night on it boy.) And their AI is going to learn from actual playing. (They are trying it out in the beta to see if it learns "the right stuff" or not.)

But I am too much of a cynic to think that there will be anything really new in the AI from firaxis.

Flandrien · March 23, 2001, 08:23

quote:

Originally posted by The Viceroy on 03-22-2001 10:22 AM
What I have proposed for eons is the partial use of neural nets .. basically, keep the rule base as nature, and allow the AI to learn through nurture .. how does it learn ?? from YOU !!

An AI that remembers how you played when you defeated it, and tries to use the same tactics next time ?

If that could work, it would be absolutely wonderful !

We could even make contests to see who could make the smartest AI this way.

------------------

Zanzin · March 23, 2001, 08:56

One major worry - will the AI know how to launch a real invasion against me? Will it know how to co-ordinate land, sea and air forces in one collosal attempt to kill my Civ if they get really pissed off with me?

I know if I get really pissed off with a computer Civ, I'll send a land sea air invasion to teach him a lesson (i.e. don't mess with me). But will the computer know how to do the same in return/advance?

Tjoepie · March 23, 2001, 12:15

I don't think the AI should be able to cheat , the whole idea would make me want to stop playing... A agree that at the higher levels they should get some advantages like co-operation between AI players vs a human player that gets to strong, but no cheating !
If the AI-strategies are good enough and get the co-operation from other AI if the human gets to strong, than that is fine but plz no cheating!
That would spoil the whole idea of the game that you have a better empire than them and that is why you are better or the other way arround. But if you let AI cheat, I will never accept to loose since it's probably because he cheated, not because he was better, and I can accept he is better, but not if he cheats ! :-)

me_irate · March 23, 2001, 16:48

I found the IA in civ2 very easy. The AI on diety cheated very badly and it was still to easy. On Diety mid to late game i was so far ahead i just got bored of playing. The idea of everyone against you is not good. Maybe if you were the most powerful such as france pre napolean everyone would gang up against you. But other than that it would unrealistic for the ai to be against one person. Also in Civ 2 the AI cheated very badly. It was rare to get very many early wonders on diety becuase it only took a about half the shields for them to build most wonders. Civ is far more complicated than chess. It takes the best computers in the world(worth millions of dollars) to beat a chess master, and civ is far more advanced. So a challenging game without cheating in my opinion an impossible dream.

The best way to make the game harder without cheating would be if a resource system were used to seed more reasorces near the computers. Also Humans should be given worse land. This would result in much more difficult games. Trying to build a advaced civ in the amazon or antartica would be very difficult. Another factor that would help would be a catch up bonus. the further a civ is behind the leader the faster its research and other factors would be. Representing the knowledge that is passed by merchants and other travelers.
[This message has been edited by me_irate (edited March 23, 2001).]

GaryGuanine · March 23, 2001, 16:53

How 'bout a citation for that chess idea?

Gary

me_irate · March 23, 2001, 16:56

im sorry did you mention that. I got tired of reading and just typed my message.

also i noticed someone mentioned a way to turn chaating off. its called prince i think(medium diff) easy it cheats for you; diety it cheats for AI's. I dont actually think they play any better at higher diff. but just cheat more.
[This message has been edited by me_irate (edited March 23, 2001).]

markusf · March 23, 2001, 17:14

Yes they desperately need to cheat! Even then they totally suck. even a half decent player, can take out 7 ai's without breaking a sweat on diety.

AI should not announce when its about to finish a wonder.
The AI should always get the latest improvements in all cities and not bother to build them. (in later stages of the game)

I want an additional field in the rules.txt for "keep this unit type inside cities forever" ie pikemen or warriors, i can't stand when they run around with useless units.

The AI should work together to attack you from multipul points. The AI should work together to impose trade embargo's.

There has to be an option that you can set that says, "never recieve tech from capturing a AI city" and another option for "never give tribute"

AI should use bribing and dips extensively to both bribe your cities and steal your tech. maybe even let the AI bribe human cities at a discounted rate.

Grandpa Troll · March 25, 2001, 20:00

I dont have a problem with AI cheating..its a step in right direction for us more experienced Civers to have a more competitive game!

The AI as a whole is as previously noted..predictable and simple in its methods..I cant wait until an AI becomes a smarter more competitive source of entertainment!

I hereby cast my vote..CHEAT CHEAT..You wont ever Beat!
LOL

Yours in Civin

Troll

------------------
Hebrews 11:1

Now Faith is the substance of things hoped for and things unseen

Urban Ranger · March 26, 2001, 00:54

Cheating baaaaadddddd!!!!

Better AI through various means gooood!!!!

Father Beast · March 27, 2001, 00:19

No, I don't think having the AI cheat badly is the answer. maybe just some tougher difficulty levels. you'll probably still stomp on them eventually, but deity is obviously not enough for some people.
not me. I do my best and can barely survive on king. much less win.
I mean, we realize that the AI happiness levels are at king, no matter what level YOU are at, and that's not really a cheat, just a difficulty level.

Lord Maxwell · March 28, 2001, 02:30

Maybe a better AI will be included in Civ 4?

But a pretty darn good AI could still be made. Especially if they can turn in strategies to a central repository and check out new strategies. (Like we do here at Apolyton.)

It's like the code breaking competitions. No supercomputer in the world can break codes as fast as the distributed programs do. (Screensavers that work on the fully parallellizable task of factoring huge prime numbers, ie 56 bit keys.) Or the SETI screensaver. No one computer does alot of work, but it adds up.

Especially if the AI has some rudimentary skills at analyzing human moves. (One might include an "omniscient learning AI", ie the AI that you play against only sees what it should see, but another deamon runs in the background and tries to analyze your moves. When it learns a city blockade technique it adds it to the list to send to the repository. When the neural net AI that is your opponent comes up with something new it adds it to the list. The list is sent in, and a new list is checked out from the repository.)

It would still not be possible to beat Kasparov at chess using this strategy, but it should be possible to beat almost all of us at Civ with it. (I doubt anyone here is in Kasparovs class, beating Civ II on diety with both hands tied behind your back doesn't make you a chess master.

Straybow · April 2, 2001, 21:21

Anyone who says it's "easy" to beat all six opponents on Deity is obviously playing on small maps. Playing on huge maps it is sometimes difficult to find all six before gunpowder. I've had Galleons leave port with Caravans aboard that don't arrive until I'm already producing Transports!

Zanzin · April 2, 2001, 23:25

I like Lord Maxwells idea - the computer learns, adds this to it's strategy base on the netetc. But it's my belief that Firaxis are the kind of company that wouldn't support this kind of feature. Why not? They just aren't!

I think Civ3 with be more evolutionary (an update) than revolutionary

April 3, 2001, 00:08

For all of you who really want the AI to give you a run for your money, I suggest you let the AI do one thing: LOAD AUTOSAVES!

Seriously though, cheating is not the way to go... unless you mean trying to simulate human intuition, where you allow the AI to know a few facts about the map/opponets/army positions that it can't see at random, therby allowing the AI to "Guess" things (like humans do), the higher the diff. lvl., the better they guess and the more often they do so.

There's my 1/50th of a dollar.