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Old April 7, 2001, 15:59   #1
Lancer
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Manufacturing Capability Should Come Before End Product
An example given by Markos in his thread on worker units gave me the idea behind this thread.

Why can we build tanks in cities without factories? Certainly basic units like archers should be able to be built without a manufacturing base, but tanks? Same with nukes, can't build those without a specialized factory in reality. Should there be different types of factory?

That aside, the factory should be built before the product, yes?

I think it would add a new dimention to the game, but it's such a new though for me that I haven't considered the pros and cons enough to form an opinion as to whether it should be implemented in the game.

What do you guys think?
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Old April 7, 2001, 16:39   #2
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A BIG con:

Already, without your suggestion, you do not have enough time to produce a reasonable number of new military units before they become obsolete, so now with your suggestion, we would have to build factories BEFORE building new units such as Tanks?

Guess what - that might mean that we would have the Tanks become obsolete just when we get enough cities done with factories!
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Old April 7, 2001, 16:51   #3
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The cost of factories are not written in stone MrFun, and partricularly the pace at which game time passes or sci comes in isn't. Also, the problems you mention would be shared by all. In reality, particularly these days, a weapons system is obsolete soon after being produced, but then so is everyone elses. Science marches on.
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Old April 7, 2001, 17:20   #4
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I agree that you should have the means of production before you can produce! After all, you can't produce a unit without the prerequisite civ advance anyway, so this would just be a logical extension of the same idea; and Firaxis have taken a significant step in this direction already by linking production to possession of the appropriate resources.

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Old April 7, 2001, 18:36   #5
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Very good idea! And I don't think it could be that much of a problem. I mean, factories would be around BEFORE Armor, I'm sure. You'd need factories to build artillery, at the very least. Factories can be used for many units and mechanized units shouldn't be built without one... great idea!
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Old April 7, 2001, 20:04   #6
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I want realism to be implemented as much as reasonably possible, but when it comes to taking the fun out of the game, that is not acceptable. I find it difficult already to utilize different units before they become obsolete with something better.

In my opinion, this idea really would not be so great. How real of a game do you want, and then, how much of the fun factor do you want to sacrifice?
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Old April 7, 2001, 20:17   #7
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Reality is fun.
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Old April 7, 2001, 21:33   #8
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Well, reality usually alternates between terminal boredom and unbearable misery, but on the whole it's been quite interesting.

Lots of people here say that Civ shouldn't be SimHistory, but really, I can't think of any better description for the game. The more realism the better. If it's done properly (ie, you get factories with 18th century tech, so when tank tech comes along your major cities are all set to produce them), it will detract nothing from the game and add that extra layer of strategy and thought to it. When I play Unreal Tournament, my brain shuts down. When I play Civ, I want to have to think more than I do during my finals.

If we want to have an epic game, the best thing to model it after is the past 6000 years of human history.
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Old April 7, 2001, 22:55   #9
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I like the idea of requiring factories, at least for the modern era units. It would an an economic effect to warfare and espionage. If a spy takes out a factory, suddenly you can't produce armored units. Also how likely is a just captured city whose factory was destroyed to be producing a mech infantry for defense? It can easily build rifleman, or partisans, who only need guns, but armor or howitzers? Come on.

The only other requirement I'd like to see is a marketplace (which is the closest I can think of to a blacksmith) for the artillery units, though not including catapults which only require wood.

I like building requirements for some units, but only in a small, highly defined group, the late mechanized units, and the cannon type artillery units.

I haven't figured out how to treat air units or ship units, particularly the post-industrial units, destroyers and up. This idea is really one that would need to be play-tested to make sure it doesn't imbalance the game or add too much complexity.

Wait a second...sudden realization. As it stands currently in Civ, how many players construct 80shield tanks or nuclear weapons in a city without a factory anyway? By the end game, rapid production is paramount, such that it pays off to build the factory before the tank anyway.
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Old April 7, 2001, 22:56   #10
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I don't think anyone has realized how perfect Civ2 really is. Look at it this way: Without a factory, it would take an average city 20-8 turns to produce a tank. THE ONLY REASON THEY CREATED A FACTORY WAS SO YOU COULD BUILD ALL OF THESE EXPENSIVE THINGS MORE QUICKLY. You could build a tank in a production of 1 city with no factory. You could, but it would take a hundred turns to do so. Same with a nuke. BUT perhaps you could have a penalty for it. Maybe the tank's equipment would be crappy (no factory to properly assemble parts), so you would get a 1 firepower penalty for the first few turns.
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Old April 7, 2001, 23:08   #11
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Civ2 perfect? It was good, but I thought it should be renamed to CivConquest, because that is all it was in the end. By requiring factories for heavy arms (pre-requisites for building) you add some strategy into the game. Instead of pumping out unit after unit and neglecting making improvements, the improvements should be a part of making units.

And imagine how wonders such as 'factories in every city' would be now worth .
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Old April 7, 2001, 23:25   #12
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Zeevico, the idea of factories being a prereq for mechanized units adds strategy without micromanagement. It also focuses the player on city improvement over conquest, something that the recent reveleations on the game, culture, 2 pop for settlers, appears to be something that Sid is trying to stress in this iteration of Civ. Giving a firepower penaly adds only micromanagement to your armies (attack with a full armor, or a weakened armor) without effecting strategy. While I like the micromanagement of settlers (I know I'm in the minority here) I didn't enjoy as much the army micromanagement of SMAC as the more general military strategy of CivIII which is much more economic in nature, which side can crank stuff out faster, ie better infrastructure.

Imran, didn't they get rid of those improvements in Civ2? That was Civ1 that had the factory wonder right? I really hope that doesn't return, it is way too powerful, especially in the hands of a human player against the AI.
[This message has been edited by SerapisIV (edited April 07, 2001).]
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Old April 7, 2001, 23:52   #13
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I never played Civ1, so I couldn't tell ya . But there wasn't a wonder that had every city get a factory in Civ2. There were wonders that gave you a cathedral in every city, etc.
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Old April 8, 2001, 00:51   #14
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Zeevico makes a good point -- Factories already serve a function in that it's required in order to produce units more efficiently.

I'm not going to surrendure to you on this, Lancer -- just don't send a nuke my way out of spite.
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Old April 8, 2001, 01:51   #15
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I agree, factories should be required (I have been changing my opinion for almost every post I've read though ), just becouse you have a city whit a large population and lots of mined hills, you shouldn't be able to churn out tanks untill you actually built the factory, this could also be extended to affect some improvements (it actually allready is affection which improvements you can build).
Also I imagine the great use this could have in scenarios, you could have shipyards and weapons manufactories in a 17th century scenario, etc, etc...
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Old April 8, 2001, 04:27   #16
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Having read all the posts, I think the best way be to require the "factory" improvement in cities before you can produce tanks, airplanes etc in that city.

Having individual "tank factories" and "air plane plants" etc is getting too specific.
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Old April 8, 2001, 11:33   #17
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I wholeheartedly agree Zanzin, Although factories should be a requirement it should be a generic factory, rather then specialized factories which only add micromanagement without really adding fun.

Also, for ships, I'd like to see ships such as galleons and up require a basic docks improvement. Ships such as those are large enough that you can't just build them on a random beach and push them in. Some kind of infrastructure should be required. Basic ships like caravels and triremes, those could be built by armies as needed, where needed as ancient writings show occurred, but the actual engineering and scientific knowledge required to build larger ships isn't something that just occurs in a city, some kind of dock or prepared infrastructure is necessary before large vessels can be built.

Again, this idea is not promoting more improvements or specializing improvements, just adding functions to existing improvements.
[This message has been edited by SerapisIV (edited April 08, 2001).]
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Old April 8, 2001, 11:59   #18
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quote:

Originally posted by SerapisIV on 04-08-2001 11:33 AM
Also, for ships, I'd like to see ships such as galleons and up require a basic docks improvement. Ships such as those are large enough that you can't just build them on a random beach and push them in...


That's a good point, Serapis. And it would also be good, IMHO, if such a docks improvement gave veteran status to ships built there. It's always seemed to me that the Port Facility came too late in the game (at least, the way I play).

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Old April 8, 2001, 19:20   #19
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I like the idea of factories being necessary for modern weapons. I think this would compliment the idea of strategically bombing city improvements (walls, factories, Chinese embassies, etc...).

I like realism, so it's not cool when some factory-less city in Greenland tries to spend eighty years building a tank. No one has ever spent so long creating a single military unit in real life, so in the game they shouldn't be allowed to. Aircraft carriers may take a couple years, but that's it. It should either take for a given city to produce a unit, or be impossible for that city.

Here's an example of what happens when production is so dependant on shields per city. I mean, if I have two cities that each produce 80 shields a turn, I basically get 2 tanks a turn (assuming tank take 80 shields, ignoring support). In 20 turns I've made 40 tanks. Now if one of my opponents has 40 cities that each only produce 4 shields per turn, he too has the potential to build 40 tanks, but only after 20 turns before which he has nothing. If I go to war, I can totally whoop him before he produces a single tank, assuming he doesn't rush-buy (which is another interesting bit of unreality).

I'm told that when the Germans were invading Stalingrad, the Soviet tank factory there was sending tanks to fight right off the end of the assembly line. Even if this isn't true, it doesn't seem that you should have to construct an entire armored division before any of the tanks are useful.

I know that in the boad game World In Flames, you total up your country's Build Points (basically equals number of Factories times your Production Multiple, unless you're short on resources) and spend it on units within certain restrictions (One of which is a gearing limit, so if you haven't built any ships lately then you can't just go build 10 ships all at once. This simulates your workers/factories not all being able to suddenly switch what they're doing.) Each unit has a basic time which it takes to complete: i.e. 4 turns for an armor unit. So you have to look ahead and all that. It's a great game, but totally unlike Civ so I don't know how much of this is helpful. I mostly wanted to throw out more ideas. I think such a system would be more realistic, but maybe too abstract since you can't say which, if any, city built the unit. Hope this helps.

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Old April 8, 2001, 21:19   #20
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Dienstag, did you know that in October (last time I checked) the WiF computer game is supposed to come out? Largest map in any comp game ever, by far. I don't play the board game due to space constrains and lack of opponents, but I've heard so many good things that the comp game is definatly in my future.

Thanks for your imput to this thread, and to everyone that has posted so far. I'm reading and like what I read so far, keep it up!
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Old April 8, 2001, 21:29   #21
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Btw Dienstag's idea could be used very easily. One way to incorporate the "gearing" as he put it is to reduce the time it takes to build the second unit of any type produced by any factory. That gives a feel of factory specialization without being totally constrained to only produce one thing in that factory. It pays to keep making one thing, but you can switch without building a new factory.
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Old April 8, 2001, 22:42   #22
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Ohh, like SMAC's prototype idea (one of the best SMAC ideas, I think) .
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Old April 9, 2001, 00:05   #23
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I was thinking more along the lines of docks being a required building just to build the larger ships (along with factories for destroyers, etc. you can't exactly build steel plating without a steel mill, for which a factory serves that purpose). I think that port facilities should still be used for veterancy. Though you should get them a bit earlier. Waiting till combined arms (after flight???) is too long.
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Old April 9, 2001, 03:24   #24
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quote:

Originally posted by SerapisIV on 04-08-2001 11:33 AM
factories should be a requirement it should be a generic factory, rather then specialized factories which only add micromanagement without really adding fun.




This is what I meant!!

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Old April 9, 2001, 06:01   #25
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Imran, really? I don't have SMAC. I stole the idea from a little early '90s game called Empire Deluxe.

Hey, I see you're a Deity. You would be the third I guess?
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Old April 9, 2001, 14:11   #26
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Lancer, the idea of SMAC's prototypes was a little different. It was only the first unit ever produced of that type, anywhere in your civ that was more as expensive. It didn't carry the factory momentum that you and Dienstag take about with a "gearing" cost, only a first ever produced cost.

Oh yeah Zanzin, I know, I totally agree with the idea.
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Old April 9, 2001, 17:39   #27
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quote:

Originally posted by SerapisIV on 04-08-2001 12:05 PM
I think that port facilities should still be used for veterancy. Though you should get them a bit earlier. Waiting till combined arms (after flight???) is too long.


OK, I see what you mean. I agree, as long you do get veteran ships quite a lot earlier!

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Old April 9, 2001, 18:30   #28
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Production was a qualifier to produce a tank in Civ2; you now suggest that some sort of qualifying structure should ALSO be used to limit industrial production. I see absolutely no merit, purpose, or bonus for doing this, other than your sense of "realism" which is in of itself highly subjective.

Many RTS games use this building limit. The reason it works for them is because this, plus money, is the only qualifyer. In Civ, technology prevents you from building tanks from the start. Adding a factory to make them available only delays their production, something that can be done just as easily by slowing the tech paradigm if one was so inclined. As the factory simply means a bit more production, one could also reach the same result by increasing the cost per unit. There is therefore no purpose for a qualifying structure in Civ3, as this role is already fufilled by technology and production.

As I wholeheartedly oppose mandatory resources, so I oppose these mandatory structures which add more management and tedium without any benefit to the player.

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- Cyclotron7, "that supplementary resource fanatic"
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Old April 9, 2001, 20:52   #29
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It's called adding more strategy and prohibition of the creation of massive armed forces before you have the structures in place to create them. Basically making it a bit less war driven. A perfect idea, if I do say so myself. I don't see how adding strategy is bad. You seem to like making Civ into a war game, I don't.

Oh, and btw, I believe, according to the CGW preview, mandatory resources are in the game.
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Old April 9, 2001, 21:47   #30
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I guess im in the minority here. While i differ from cyclotron on the resources issue. I however agree with him that i do not like this factory idea. A person let alone a whole city could build a tank, it is just quicker with a factory. I believe that this speed increase accurately fits with the factories current role. I seldom would even consider building a tank in a city without a factory because it takes so long, but if one would want to build it i believe they should be able to.
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