Computer Gaming World CIVIII preview

[Nemo]

are there any more scans/posts of these screenshots anywhere else? it is really hard to see the city screen et al. in detail. i went to teh stores near me but no one has any mags out yet. or could someone write what the graphics are on the city screen at least? esp. what is in top right corner, what is under the "food" bars, and what are teh orange and blue tabs under teh air craft carrier that is being built on teh bottom right? oh yeah, and what do teh vertical people on teh left side represent? its too hard to see. i cant wait for teh next firaxis web update with better screenshot resolutions. now that the cgw has their "exclusive" now maybe firaxis will share some more with us!
btw, thanks alot for taking the time to post those pictures for us shuttleswo. greatly appreciated

[Akron]

Before I begin, let me just say that from most of the things in the preview, civ 3 looks really promising. I'm just drooling over the resource system, culture, and leaders!

Just a few notes though:
In cgw5.gif, it says that the final game should have 16 world leaders represented. Below that, it shows the pictures of 7 leaders. From this, it seems to me as if Firaxis has decided to stick to only 7 civs in a game. Hopefully, there will be more than 16 possible civs (which is less than in civ 2) and more like 20 civs in a single game. Also, I really hope Firaxis does something about religion and puts in some new governemts while not taking out fundy. Also, compared to CTP2's graphics, the scanned in screen shots are inferior, but I'm sure Firaxis will improve on these. They seem to have inherited some of the dullness and darkness of SMAC. As for everything else, I'm sure I could go on for many pages over everything good and everything needing work, but I'll leave it since this is only a preview far from the real thing.

[Nenad]

I think that people are giving too much importance to those pictures. There are few things that tells me so. For instance, below city screen, the text reads: "Now you can move workers around ...". Where are the workers? They are not on tiles. If they are all moved to increas luxuries outcome, then it should be a food shortage, but there is a line that reads: "Growth: 10 turns" (or something like that, 16 maybe).

Also, there are 16 citizens, but in food department it says: "## per turn", where ## are not 32.

In Improvements box there are two columns, but two identical columns.

Where are tile improvements? How many food/trade/production is coming from a single tile?

How we get informations about happines, trade routes (Ok, that's maybe changed) and map position of the city?

That biplane is possibly just another civ's unit. The heads to the left are probably not advisors, because there are 3 types of faces that repeates twice. I believe that advisors should be all diferent.

And so on. Still, I like what I see. In fact, I'am overwhelmed. It has good atmosphere somehow, good feeling, good design. All that unclair things surely is going to be changed, and most beautifull news are not on those pictures but in text itself.

Personally, I was hoping that city screen and city view are going to become one. If not, then let them get rid of city view, I don't care.

[Nemo]

quote: Personally, I was hoping that city screen and city view are going to become one. If not, then let them get rid of city view, I don't care.

i agree, if you cant see it at teh same time OR improvements are not shown as being built in the city screen in front of your eyes (like in civ I), then it should go away.

i was reconsidering my position on the advisors though, maybe if they are funny, like some in civ II, it would be worth it, otherwise it will remain worthless. it was funny to watch the druck militant man waddle through the sceen, but if it is mearly a facial expression that changes...well, it just doesnt sound like too much fun to have them take up my disk space. i like a release while playing, like wonder movies, comical advisors, watching the city build, playing with the castle. those things made it more fun! and thats what i want. both civ II and on a much larger scale CTP I/II both started taking these extras out, and i found my self missing the fun stuff from civ I that kept me so engulfed. those releases i think are crucial to playing the game in an addictive manner. without them, its alot about moving pawns about the board like a game of chess but with diplomacy. while chess is statigic, it is not that fun just moving the pieces around IMO.

[Maccabee2]

I am so enthused by this review. The graphics look at least as good as CTP (one of CTP's redeeming factors.), and the new trade and culture factors are both new and exciting for the increased depth of gameplay that they promise.
(I've been so bored, I'm marking time with a few forays into The Sims.)

[fluxcapacitor]

Wow. Looks to be awesome. I know those shots are very early but I personally would've prefered a truly 3D interace, like Black & White's engine, it's amazing. But that's cool, Sid has always kept the requirements down on his titles. No worries. The resources idea sounds better 100 fold, and one thing I'm really, really glad to see is that military units will not take shields but gold. Alot more realistic that way.

[Ilkuul]

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse on 03-29-2001 12:28 AM Did someone say no fundy? BOO HOOOOO!!!!!!!!!! Its my favorite government

BOO HOOOOO TOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!! Firaxis, don't deprive us non-micro-managers of this fantastic sit-back-&-enjoy-yourself style of government! Not that real fundie governments can afford to think that way at all -- I have to admit it's not a very realistic aspect of Civ2... but it's fun!

Having said that, this preview encourages me that there will be many extra dimensions to Civ3 that might just possibly make up for the loss of Fundamentalism!



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Ilkuul

Every time you win, remember: "The first shall be last".
Every time you lose, remember: "The last shall be first".

[Ilkuul]

quote: Originally posted by Nemo on 03-29-2001 02:53 AM i hope that the ocean or ocean edges move, like in Civ I...

Y E S !!! I second that motion 1000%! That was one of the things I missed most when I made the changeover to Civ2...

[Ilkuul]

quote: Originally posted by Sparky on 03-29-2001 09:02 AM I wouldn't mind seeing a lot of vibrant greens in Civ3...

Me too! I was all excited when I first bought ToT, but it was a devastating shock to find myself out in a dismal drizzle without a coat when I started the game!! Since then I've hardly played it. Give me a world of bright sunshine that's a pleasure to explore and conquer!

[Zanzin]

Yeah, the world needs to be a lot brighter than those screen shots

[Theben]

Initially I was floored by what I saw and read, but now I'm feeling slightly discouraged, becuase of what's in the city screen .gif. Are we still completely basing the growth of populations solely on the availability of food!? Granted, it's the most important factor, but not the the only one! And the food "storage" looks like what was in civ1 and 2, as opposed to ember's detailed ideas about food & production storage & deterioration over time. Can only produce 1 item at a time? That's pretty limiting. It seems they completely glossed over the City & City Improvements section of the list.
Yeah, I know it can't all be there, but I still think they were good ideas. Plus I don't see my "Martial Law" button in there anywhere, and either Brian or Dan said way back when that it was a popular idea with the team at the time, so I'm sulking. .

[kolpo]

While this painting like style can work in the middle ages do I doubt or it will work in the high tech age.

[Father Beast]

on seeing this thread, I went out on tuesday and none of the stores had the new CGW. got it on wednesday and have been drroling continuously since. that's why I haven't been here.

OK, comments

What's out:
supporting units with shields (now gold)
I can handle that. makes more sense, too.

Fundamentalism
Fine, it wasn't very balanced anyway. As long as the editor allows me to edit governments enough to recreate it. guess what AH will do then?

City View
NOOOO... I HOPE that the writer meant the CTP type city management screen. I loved the city view demonstrated. I think I can pick out the colliseum, temple, and barracks. In addition to the city walls, aqueduct, and lighthouse more obvious. and is that a coastal fortress facing the sea?

on to the city screen...

COOL!! I actually have the mag, so I can see it a bit better than those scanned shots.
there's 16 heads, and the food barsays 20 per turn, and I think 12 eaten? could be 16 or 18 eaten, but that doesn't jibe with the before and after parts of the food line, but 2 or 4 surplus would jibe with the expected growth in 15 turns.
lost 1 shield and 2 trade arrows to waste. familiar.
it appears that of the 2 lines of stuff in the top right corner, the top line is production oriented resources, and the second line is all luxury oriented resources. the second line is duplicated exactly in the luxury line at the bottom.
2 questions:
1. where are the harvest grain and shields and arrows on the map?
2. why is the improvements list twice - side by side?

Bottom line? I'm still drooling. some of the side notes tell me why this will be a great game. I want it for christmas, but I'm willing to wait until it's done.

[eric789]

quote: i hope that the ocean or ocean edges move, like in Civ I...

This forces me to close my eyes. what a piece of nostalgia! hmmmmmm...

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Heres what I can make out from the picts (just from the images)

Image 1

-Roads effect borders (1 square on both sides)
-The irrigation (i) has changed. It looks more like swamps now
-The terrain is still too randomized (unfortunatly. IMO, firaxis should divide the map into three parts. The top and bottom 3rd can have arctic, tundra, etc, but no deserts. The deserts are in the middle 3rd. This is the way it is on our planet and any radnomized map should work the same way. Its too random how you can have a desert next to a tundra.)
-Resorces: gold, cows/deers?,emeralde/gems?, whale, and some green thing on a hill
-If you look at the big road junction carefully, you can see that they arent all inter-connected like in CivI or II. Rather, they twist and turn. It might be hard to maneuvre your troops along these curvy roads. It also seems that there are roads which go only to irrigation/farms. Perhaps this is to increase food production
-The units don't have a strength bar. Im not sure what this could mean
-Theres some sort of Tireme and a few foot soldiers.

Image 2

-The city view has dramatically changed. Where in CivII, a wall was represented by a small gate, here, it goes all the way around.
-The buildings are (look hard): Aqueduct/resevoir (not sure if they are built at the same time), City wall, barracks, temple, colloseum,some sort of fortress,houses and The Lighthouse (WoW)
-There is a fal look. I doubt that this will change with the seasons, because each turn is at minimum one year.
-There may be more and more houses as your population grows
-Almost directly in front of the gate, is a sort of clearing and a slope which goes down into the water. This could be where the harbor/dock is placed. If its a tile improvement, then it might be shown there too.
-When building wonders, the forest in the backround probably has to be cleared to make way for it. I hope that theres enough room for at least 10 (!) wonders.
-With all of these wonders around, maybe it'll block the view of everything inside the city.
-The fortress could also be a wonder (King Richards Crusade)
-This civilization seems to be in the Renaissance period.

We're gonna skip Image 3 because theres nothing to comment on.

Image 4 (NB i used photoshop to zoom in)

-On the top pict (the city view which i will call pict 1), i will first concentrate on the new city bar. Starting on the left, there is an improvements toolbar. There are identical ones next to each other. I dont know why they are identical. Under that is something titile 'Garrison' and it has the list of troops defending. Its kiinda small box, so i dont know if theres gonna be a unit limit or not. To the right of the garrison is the pollution box. This city has 4 pollution, denoted by the Civ2 symbol. In the middle are three production bars in three colors. Blue (production0, yellow (food) and green (trade) Then, there is the unit/improvement bar. Baltimore is building an aircraft carrier.

-In the map view (where it says Queen Amanda of the... and city of Balifmorf =). There are the heads of the citizens. In the top left, there are the resorces. THe first line has bananas and grain, and the second one has gold, and stones. There is a bi-plane, but for some reason no city icon.
On the left, there are heads of some people. It could be the heads of some governors, or mayors, or civil servants, or of your "special leaders" and they advise you or maybe are just there as a remidner to how mant you have.

In the second caption, there are a lot of units yet to be revealed.
-4 modern day weapons (from top to bottom) :sherman, mech infantry, Abrams, artilery, Panzer.
-Boats: Tiereme, Spanish Galleon
-Other (in any order): Archer, phalanx, legion, catapult, canon, chariot, light cavalry, heavy cavalry, pikemen, and the rest are indistiguisable foot soldiers

k. Thats all i can make out. you guys can do the speculation.

[Father Beast]

quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia on 04-01-2001 12:52 PM -In the map view (where it says Queen Amanda of the... and city of Balifmorf =).

That's queen amanda of the Wise Pandas. and Baltimore

[Adm.Naismith]

quote: Starting on the left, there is an improvements toolbar. There are identical ones next to each other. I dont know why they are identical.

They are identical because in every early stage, some developer has to check how the screen manage to fit lots of elements, while he/she only has a bunch of elements ready to test.

Easy answer is to duplicate things to fit as necessary; I did it a lot of time, years ago (not developing games, I'm afraid, only boring business application).

Or, wait... it shuld be our First Reported Civ III Bug!

Yin26, where are you, when we need you and all the Bug Buster team?

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant
[This message has been edited by Adm.Naismith (edited April 02, 2001).]

[yin26]

I'm here saving up energy.

[shuttleswo]

incedeltally i've posted another scan from the article at

cgw5.gif

it's not that intresting which is why i didn't post it earlier, it's just the leaders, three of which were already on the firaxis website, but it adds a couple of more.

[Adm.Naismith]

Thank you for the new scan (as for all the previus, of course ).

16 leaders? Not so many, if Firaxis isn't ready to add some monthly, downloadable for free on its site.

But they are smart, they are ready to do right this, aren't they?

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

[Lawrence of Arabia]

The leaders are:
-Mao Tse Tung (China)
-Ramese II (Egypte)
-Julius Caesar (Rome)
-Mahatma Ghandi (Indian)<----- pain in the @ss in Civ I and II
-Joan of Arc (France)
-Queen Elizabeth II (England)

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia on 04-02-2001 08:01 PM The leaders are: -Mao Tse Tung (China) -Ramese II (Egypte) -Julius Caesar (Rome) -Mahatma Ghandi (Indian)<----- pain in the @ss in Civ I and II -Joan of Arc (France) -Queen Elizabeth II (England)

You're *mostly* correct; two of those are incorrect (but I'm not telling which ones) and you also forgot Abraham Lincoln.

Dan
Firaxis Games, Inc.
[This message has been edited by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS (edited April 02, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS (edited April 02, 2001).]

[Lawrence of Arabia]

It most be Julius Caesar and Rameses. And I can't belive i forgot Abe =)

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Its okay to smile; you're in America now

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Wait a minute...

The first picture, is definatly Mao (says so at the official website)
Second one, which i said was Ramese II, is definatly egyptian. Now, he could be Ramses II, or Ramses I, or Tut, or that Ashkan... (can't remeber spelling.)
Third one is Lincoln
4th could be Caesar, or another Roman, or it could be some sort of Greek..ooohh Alexandre the Great (he has a conquerors look on his face)
the 5th is Mahatma Ghandi (thats how he looks)
6th. The only woman i know who dressed like that was Joan of Arc.
The last one is Elizabeth I, or II.

Dan?

Actually I'm quite worried about these leaders... it seems very unlikely that they are going to include a lot of civ's if each one needs this diplo-animation (let alone 2, unless each civ is to be gender specific)... I also wonder about mods to add new civs, and how difficult and/or incomplete it will be.

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

quote: Originally posted by Trachmir on 04-02-2001 11:54 PM Actually I'm quite worried about these leaders... it seems very unlikely that they are going to include a lot of civ's if each one needs this diplo-animation (let alone 2, unless each civ is to be gender specific)... I also wonder about mods to add new civs, and how difficult and/or incomplete it will be.

Our goal has always been quality and not quantity. We're putting a lot of effort into the default set of civilizations and units, but we fully expect that players will be able to create whatever civs, units, scenarios, or whatever else they wanted that we just don't have time to create.

Just as we're going to have provisions for scenario makers who want to create custom units without the complexity of articulated, animated units, there should be some sort of provision for custom civilizations. I'm not sure what the specific plan is, but I'd imagine we'll have a couple of discrete emotion slots and you'll be able to just drop static images into each slot (or the same image in each if you so desire). Someone skilled with a video capture board could probably use TV footage to add any number of personas into the game without much difficulty.

Dan
Firaxis Games, Inc.

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia on 04-02-2001 10:09 PM Wait a minute... The first picture, is definatly Mao (says so at the official website) Second one, which i said was Ramese II, is definatly egyptian. Now, he could be Ramses II, or Ramses I, or Tut, or that Ashkan... (can't remeber spelling.) Third one is Lincoln 4th could be Caesar, or another Roman, or it could be some sort of Greek..ooohh Alexandre the Great (he has a conquerors look on his face) the 5th is Mahatma Ghandi (thats how he looks) 6th. The only woman i know who dressed like that was Joan of Arc. The last one is Elizabeth I, or II. Dan?

I can neither confirm nor deny any of those! (Well, except for Mao and Abe) My lips are sealed! #5 may or may not be Gandhi... he could be someone else entirely! Or not! Isn't the suspense just killing you?!?! Wow! Don't you just hate it when people end every sentence with exclamation points?!?!

Dan
Firaxis Games, Inc.


[This message has been edited by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS (edited April 03, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS (edited April 03, 2001).]

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Who else looks like pict 6? maybe you Dan?
lol

[Lawrence of Arabia]

i meant pict 5

Thanx Dan for your reply...

If you'll be able to use a few static shots then that seems fair.
But how about creating a few GENERIC animations, so that we can get the full impact of the diplomacy interaction? (maybe as a downloadable add-on?)