Additions/Changes <I think> would make civ3 truly civ -3-

Killazer · April 22, 2002, 03:37

Or at the very least a much better game.

I like civ3. I think its a good game. But, it can use some additions changes. These simply arent vanity changes. I believe these would seriously allow one to play the game with more ease and thus more enjoyment, especially in the lade industrial/modern ages. These would certainly help the '3' in Civ3 grow. I also very realisticly as a programmer myself believe most of these changes can be made via patches. If the code is properly commented and structured with proper file headers its doable without a major headache.
I agree Civ3 can use some more changes. Things like:

1) Ability to sort your cities by what they are producing, currency generated, population etc in the city managing advisor window.

2) Ability to upgrade units in the military advisor window. Also ability to move your units from city to city from the window.

3) Ability to set waypoints for units. That is, to set a waypoint at the city where the unit is produced. After its production is complete it would go to that waypoint and either sleep or fortify itself.

4) Ability to select stacks or groups of artillery to fire in sequence on a tile with just 1 command.

5) Ability to select stacks or groups of fighters/bombers to bombard on a tile in sequence with just 1 command.

6) Different version of diplomatic ties screen where you can see connections for up to all 16 civs at the same time. This can be done by simply using a text label for each civ instead of the roomy 3d graphic. You can toggle views with a keypress while in the diplo tie screen.

7) Trade agreement screen where you can see what trades are going on with whom, number of turns left for the deal etc, diplomatic agreements, etc.

8) Magnetism or Frigates coming into play a little earlier in the middle ages. You get ironclads like 10 turns after Frigates... dumb.

9) Official map graphics changed to Snoopys mod graphics. Original graphx suck Snoopy much better. They are more realistic and also easier on they eyes, my eyes at least. The original red of the mnts made me dizy if I stared at the map for too long the new colors are great.

10) I love the modern age music... not a change but hey I have to give em something. Civ 2++

And that ends the 10 commandments.

I think the AI in civ3 is pretty good. I fired up modded CTP2 today and I wasnt very impressed with what I saw rofl. CTP2 graphics totally suck compared to civ3, the animations are pretty terrible, and the AI is a joke. I just didnt want to play it. Civ3 is superior to that I think.

I feel that if the changes above where made civ3 would truly be solid. After that they can finally finish the unfinished editor they shipped the game with. I know some of the changes can be a fair deal of work, but thats what they are getting paid for. But they are certainly doable for the most part.

I would be extremelly happy if only number 3 was implemented. Waypoints would greatly simplify micro management and game time in the later ages. Games take too long in general. If multiplayer is truly going to succeed they need time reducing mechanisms like the ones I mentioned. MP will still be used without em, but with them a lot more ppl would play MP if they could get a full game all the way through the modern ages in about 4 hours max on standard map.

Ok this message may be getting long now and Ive probably said enough, thank you for reading or whatever.

Coracle · April 22, 2002, 04:13

TEDIUM has indeed been a problem with Civ 3, and that is what you seem inclined to rectify.

As for the AI, either it is dumb as a doorknob (Regent level), or cheats like crazy.

In Civ 2 we just knew that combat percentages favored the AI as we went up in difficulty. Civ 3 differs (for the worse) in that it also secretly CHEATS in the most outrageous ways, not the least is seeing the entire map, and teleporting ocean-going galleys wherever it pleases.

notyoueither · April 22, 2002, 04:37

Good suggestions. Is there room for an eleventh commandment?

The pop-up screen when you right-click on a stack... yea, that one. Can it be sorted by unit type? That would be great.

Ever tried to pick through one of these lists when there are 40 or 50 units in a city to find all the units of a certain type? If you had you'd know what I'm talking about. Especially when you load a saved game.

Nym · April 22, 2002, 05:02

Good ideas

AJ Corp. The FAIR · April 22, 2002, 13:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Killazer
...
1) Ability to sort your cities by what they are producing, currency generated, population etc in the city managing advisor window.

2) Ability to upgrade units in the military advisor window. Also ability to move your units from city to city from the window.

3) Ability to set waypoints for units. That is, to set a waypoint at the city where the unit is produced. After its production is complete it would go to that waypoint and either sleep or fortify itself.

4) Ability to select stacks or groups of artillery to fire in sequence on a tile with just 1 command.

5) Ability to select stacks or groups of fighters/bombers to bombard on a tile in sequence with just 1 command.

6) Different version of diplomatic ties screen where you can see connections for up to all 16 civs at the same time. This can be done by simply using a text label for each civ instead of the roomy 3d graphic. You can toggle views with a keypress while in the diplo tie screen.

7) Trade agreement screen where you can see what trades are going on with whom, number of turns left for the deal etc, diplomatic agreements, etc.

8) Magnetism or Frigates coming into play a little earlier in the middle ages. You get ironclads like 10 turns after Frigates... dumb.

9) Official map graphics changed to Snoopys mod graphics. Original graphx suck Snoopy much better. They are more realistic and also easier on they eyes, my eyes at least. The original red of the mnts made me dizy if I stared at the map for too long the new colors are great.

10) I love the modern age music... not a change but hey I have to give em something. Civ 2++

...

These 10 suggestions are very good Killazer, some of them already have been mentioned around here, some of them not.
Many other good suggestions posted by many others have also been posted many times. Some of those were absorbed by Firaxis (but why did they favor the editor in such a discriminatory way to the actual game itself?), but many not.
As long as they realize there's still plenty of patching to do in terms of facilitating gameplay and improving AI's war capabilities, they're doing a good job (don't forget about the correct starting locations though

).

1) yes, that would be useful/handy, such as in MOO2
2) specific actions that could be classified under the responsabilities of one of the advisors, should be doable from the advisor's screen itself, you're quite right
3) yes, would be useful too: create army build up locations or secure strategic locations
4) yes, imagine an AI invasion force of 16 tanks on your continent, you J-stack your artillery there, one command and they all start firing the tank stack and will only stop if every unit's HP is down to 1 (to do something else with remaining active artillery) or when all artillery has fired.
5) idem
6) speaks for itself: shift right click to replace civ; only found out about it two weeks ago (and playing 5/6months !!)
7) idem: new/active button, renegotiations, : the follow up process is very tedious
8) dumb, you've said it ... naval options definitely must be revised!

AJ

AJ Corp. The FAIR · April 22, 2002, 14:34

responding to the title of the thread ...

just a way to MAKE IT POSSIBLE TO GET A TECH LEAD FROM EARLY ON (or at least being competitive).

Right now, on emp/deit that ain't possible until (if you're lucky that is) late industrial or modern age.

AJ

Bleyn · April 22, 2002, 15:12

Here's my $0.02's worth.

1. Very definitely agreed. I still can't figure out why they didn't put it in to start with. Most of the time, if I'm looking at that part of the Domestic Advisor screen its specificially to find out who has the most production or science generation.

2. Would be nice, but not exactly one of my high priorities, since shift-U does a mass upgrade anyway, and I usually have the funds for that. Now making a way to activate all of the units of a type from that screen with just a couple clicks. That would be nice.

3. Would be nice, but not one of my highest priorities.

4/5. I would just be happy if they resequenced unit movement so that all the air units got to move, then naval units, then artillery then other land units. I think that would work out about as well. And yes I really would want naval movement second. Between the explorers, transports and the naval bombardment, they usually have a good reason to be moving early.

6/7. Seeing everyone would be nice, and the trade agreements. What I really want to see, unless its already there and I just can't find it... The simple basic info on foreign govs. What government type they are running, how many cities, etc. All the nice info you used to get once you had an embassy. I find it stupid that you can have a guy in their capital and not know if Joan of Arc is a Queen, Generalissimo, Comrade or Madame President. And its really annoying to actually have to try subverting a city before you can find out if its even worth bothering.

8. Just slowing down things down in general so that tech is usable longer before it becomes obsolete would be nice.

And here's a couple other things I'd like to see.

1. An adjustment to culture, either so that high culture levels on the inner part of your empire have more of an influence on the outer edges, or even just that building wonders has more of an influence on the culture of the entire empire. I find it very annoying that most wonders are so expensive that they are best built in the oldest cities, but culturally would be most useful on the outer edges.

2. An option in the diplomacy interactions with the AI civs to say to them "Your offer is interesting, but you need to come up with something better than that." Ie. a way of telling them that "No I'm not going to give you my world map and two free techs for just you're measely world map." Instead of having to make all the offers yourself, make it a little more interactive, maybe so as the AI will actually reevaluate their tech and map valuations during negotiations.

Grrr · April 22, 2002, 15:15

Good points

. Why do all of you whiners complain about falling behind in tech on high levels, play at a lower one.

ixnay · April 22, 2002, 15:33

Something that would be nice that I thought of last game would be an option to display a popup if you were about to perform an action that would lead to the AI's losing their trust in you. I found it incredibly annoying when I suddenly found out that no one would trade with me, sign an alliance, or a ROP because I'm "a treaty-breaker" even though I have no idea what exactly I did. It could be something simple, like
"Sir, we have a right of passage with the Zulu. If we declare war before it expires, we may not be able to sign these agreements with other civs in the future. Do you want to go ahead and attack?"

Inverse Icarus · April 22, 2002, 15:37

don't bother suggesting things to firaxis.

louiethelesbo · April 22, 2002, 16:22

I think a Civilization of Amazons who were actually lesbians would add a lot to the game. Think of the politcal intrgue...you could send a spy to steal all their batteries which would wreak havoc with their morale. Or you could charge extra for carrorts and cucumbers. There is more than one way to beat a bunch of lesbians. Lesbians in prison would also be interesting.

The game is just too boring..needs some spice.

ixnay · April 22, 2002, 16:30

Quote:

Originally posted by louiethelesbo
I think a Civilization of Amazons who were actually lesbians would add a lot to the game. Think of the politcal intrgue...you could send a spy to steal all their batteries which would wreak havoc with their morale. Or you could charge extra for carrorts and cucumbers. There is more than one way to beat a bunch of lesbians. Lesbians in prison would also be interesting.

The game is just too boring..needs some spice.

Riiiiight....

DL!

PsionicMind · April 22, 2002, 16:40

Quote:

1) Ability to sort your cities by what they are producing, currency generated, population etc in the city managing advisor window.

2) Ability to upgrade units in the military advisor window. Also ability to move your units from city to city from the window.

3) Ability to set waypoints for units. That is, to set a waypoint at the city where the unit is produced. After its production is complete it would go to that waypoint and either sleep or fortify itself.

4) Ability to select stacks or groups of artillery to fire in sequence on a tile with just 1 command.

5) Ability to select stacks or groups of fighters/bombers to bombard on a tile in sequence with just 1 command.

6) Different version of diplomatic ties screen where you can see connections for up to all 16 civs at the same time. This can be done by simply using a text label for each civ instead of the roomy 3d graphic. You can toggle views with a keypress while in the diplo tie screen.

7) Trade agreement screen where you can see what trades are going on with whom, number of turns left for the deal etc, diplomatic agreements, etc.

8) Magnetism or Frigates coming into play a little earlier in the middle ages. You get ironclads like 10 turns after Frigates... dumb.

9) Official map graphics changed to Snoopys mod graphics. Original graphx suck Snoopy much better. They are more realistic and also easier on they eyes, my eyes at least. The original red of the mnts made me dizy if I stared at the map for too long the new colors are great.

10) I love the modern age music... not a change but hey I have to give em something. Civ 2++

All great ideas. Especially like number 8, the age of sail should be much more important. Numbers 3,6,and 7 sound like they should be somewhat easy to implement, maybe in an expansion pack, and would cut down on some of the tedium, just make the gameplay even that much more enjoyable

Jethro83 · April 22, 2002, 19:42

Quote:

Originally posted by louiethelesbo
I think a Civilization of Amazons who were actually lesbians would add a lot to the game. Think of the politcal intrgue...you could send a spy to steal all their batteries which would wreak havoc with their morale. Or you could charge extra for carrorts and cucumbers. There is more than one way to beat a bunch of lesbians. Lesbians in prison would also be interesting.

The game is just too boring..needs some spice.

A civilization of lesbian Amazons? But they'd all perish after the first generation. A civilization needs both genders to grow and thrive.

Killazer · April 22, 2002, 21:15

Yeah I expect half of these realistically wont happen , especially 9 that was just a personal preference really. Well the other things can be considered likewise I guess but....they would really help since personal relative to some of the points = most civ3 players. And these commandments unlike the original arent set in stone

I do believe the waypoints, stack bombard, and sorting production in the city diplo screen should be done.

The programmers really are just concerned I would guess in finishing the editor since it was unmistakenly obvious that the editor shipped with the 'finished' game was unfinished. As far as how unfinished the game itself is is arguable and they dont want to spend a lot of time on it since they prolly have other things to do. They do have to fix the bugs and things they feel are seriously lacking. I think some of the points I made are things that can be considered seriously lacking. It would be great if they had some more RTS game control conventions even tho it is turn based. It would speed up the game and make it easier/more enjoyable to play in the later ages.

As for some comments ppl made to my original post.
1) I agree that you dont really need upgrade feature in the military advisor. I do mass upgrades most of the time also. Would be nice tho.
2) Yeah! With very large unit stacks the unit types get out of order and require more work from you to give orders to specific unit types or to just see the units at a glance. They seem to be ordered originally but then for some reason after you end yer turn they are out of order again.

Killazer · April 22, 2002, 21:17

Wait I forgot another important commandment!

11) Fortify-ALL Sleep-ALL and variants commands. Would help a GREAT deal.

Fitz · April 23, 2002, 13:07

Umm, can't you already do 1 & 2? You can certainly sort by shields and commerce and pop. All you do is click on the column header, and if you do it several times, it sorts in different ways. You can't sort by what is being produced though.

And the upgrade from the military advisory screen, just right click the unit. You can do this from inside a city too.

Maybe if you spent more time experimenting and less time complaining ... (j/k)

Carver · April 23, 2002, 13:08

Quote:

Originally posted by LordAzreal

A civilization of lesbian Amazons? But they'd all perish after the first generation. A civilization needs both genders to grow and thrive.

Everyone knows of the legend of the all female paradise; where there are no men to cause violence and vulgarity. After a despot or commie pop rush (or after starvation) the women decide this is the time for them to leave their testosterone infected civs and flee to Amazonia.

They also send special ops teams into other civs to steal sperm.

AJ Corp. The FAIR · April 23, 2002, 13:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Grrr
Good points

. Why do all of you whiners complain about falling behind in tech on high levels, play at a lower one.

Grrr, my (poorly

) Dutch speaking fellow soul,

lower levels are too ... easy.

I'm not complaining about increased difficulties, I'm complaining about the impossibility of aiming for a substantial tech lead.

Increasing difficulty is what I want, but not on the expense of reduced game options.

Can you actually imagine that ONE of the essential features of ALL civ games (get science lead) has become invalid now?

There's just NO WAY to get a tech lead early on (even late industrial/modern not obvious), unless you'd succeed in the Great Library (but building wonders is also very tricky and tedious on higher levels and education will kick in fast).

So less valid options ...

(taking a step back -monarch- is NOT an option for me)

AJ

Jethro83 · April 23, 2002, 19:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Carver

Everyone knows of the legend of the all female paradise; where there are no men to cause violence and vulgarity. After a despot or commie pop rush (or after starvation) the women decide this is the time for them to leave their testosterone infected civs and flee to Amazonia.

They also send special ops teams into other civs to steal sperm.

Special Ops teams, and IVF in ancient era?! Wow.

But women are as innately corrupt as men are. Its a HUMAN thing. Not a male thing.

Anyway, in Diablo II, the Amazon society still has men. Women are the only ones allowed in the military and ruling class but the men are allowed jobs in the clergy, parliament or labouring.

Harovan · April 23, 2002, 19:26

Very good suggestions. That would really improve the game much. I would add a vastly improved diplomacy overview, where I can see ALL 16 civs at once, and the ability to check the status of another civ (war, pacts, trades) without leaving the diplomatic window (sorta "secret service" in CtP2).

Inverse Icarus · April 23, 2002, 19:34

knowing who was tradign what goods to an enemy could be helpful too... for the whole embargo system...

Shadowlord · April 23, 2002, 20:02

Yeah... I remember one particular game where I was looking eagerly at the Chinese lands, but I had a right of passage agreement with them.

So, I made sure I had no units in their territory, then I cancelled the ROP, double checked my troops again, was satisfied I had nobody in their territory, and that I didn't illegally break the ROP (the 20 turns was up), so then I officially declared war through talking to the Chinese and telling them I was going to war with them. And then I started moving my units to attack. 3 turns later, I took my first city from them.

200 years later, I ask the Japanese for a right of passage treaty, and they say something to the effect of "Never! We remember your sneak-attacking the Chinese while you had a similar treaty with them!" and I went "WTF!? .... DAMN YOU FIRAXIS! ARRGGHHH!!!"

All my hard work, making sure I wasn't abusing the ROP, officially cancelling it before declaring war, not sneak attacking... Only to have every other civ despise me for something I didn't do!

(This was with 1.17f.)

wrylachlan · April 23, 2002, 22:18

1. Change the way railroads work
In the end game every single square is covered in rr. That just looks ugly and takes the strategy out since no single railroad has strategic value.

Instead make rrs significantly harder to build. Also take away the commerce bonus. Instead, for every one of the five nearest cities, that your city has a direct rr to, the city gets an overall 5% bonus. The end result of this would be a grid of railroads connecting the cities, and if an enemy civ attacked, you could bomb out the railroads, making it harder for them to advance as far on a single turn. It would just make the military tactics more interesting.

2. Troop Moral / Surrender System
I like the fact that individual towns no longer pay the upkeep for troops, but with the new war weariness thing, I think that troops should be connected to their home town. The more troops from a town that are killed, the more war weary that town gets. Also war weariness goes up dramatically if you send a unit to certain death just to wear down the enemy. This war weariness from having hometown boys killed continues for a little while after the war representing the reduced productivity of the shell-shocked.

Coupled with this you could have a surrender system, where that tank that is trapped behind enemy lines could surrender to the enemy. You then have an option to trade for POW's in the trade screen, and if you buy them back their hometown is happy. If not they have the same effect as if they were killed.

On the flip side of the coin, if one of the hometown boys becomes a great leader, that town experiences an increase in production out of pride.

3. Immegration/Emmigration/Foreign Nationals System
In the real world, there is no way that France would ever go to war against Algeria, for the same reason that the US would never go to war against Israel. Namely there are too many people in those countries that would be up in arms because they are of the other countries ethnic descent.

If your culture rating is high, and you are a democracy you begin to attract immegrants. This will be population that appears in your cities from another civ. Conversely if your citizens are not happy they have a greater chance of emmigrating to another civ.

If you have immegrants in your civ and you attack their homeland, they immediately go into resistance. If their homeland is in a war with a third civ and you come to their aid, however, the immegrants productivity increases.

4. Metropolis/Suburb system
In this system you could designate a town as a Suburb of the next city over (The Metropolis), and when the Suburb hits 21 population, all the excess food is shipped over to the Metropolis. This would allow truly massive Metropoli. Couple this with a small overall production bonus for high city size (say 5% for every 5 citizens) which represents the increased efficiency of everyone working together. Also make some small wonders, or even buildings that can only be built in a Metropolis. Maybe a Public Transportation center which makes people happy and eleviates some pollution???

5. Limited resources
The resources should have a total amount available in that square, and the total number per turn that can be extracted. Also units that require strategic resources use up a certain number of them to build, and you can't build more than you have resources. To trade you would trade a total number of each resource, just like gold.

For luxury resources you would need a certain number of units per city to get the happiness bonus. If you have less than enough to give the happiness bonus to all your cities the AI would automatically allocate them to the least happy cities. And if you need to use less than you are extracting per turn you could stockpile it.

6. Basic Finishing Touches
These things are things that should have been in CIV3 but weren't, easy things that I shouldn't even have to mention:
- No commands that are inaccessible from the GUI. Its not that I don't like keyboard commands, or even that I would stop using them if the commands were available in the GUI. I just feel that having keyboard commands without a corresponding GUI way to do it makes the game feel unfinished. And to have those keystrokes not thoroughly documented in the civilopedia is a sin.

-Move the establish embassies and espionage to the Advisor's area. It makes no sense whatsoever that I can't establish embasies from my foreign advisor's screen. Also, all espionage should go through an espionage advisor. Its just not good game design to spread out the functions so that you have to go on the map to your pentagon in order to do espionage. It should be central.

-Make the Governor's screen less of an afterthought. I mean come on, it should have at least a nice graphic, and some way to access it other than Ctrl-G in the city screen. I think that the Governor's screen should be accessible through a "Council of Governor's" Advisor, again a central location would make sense for setting civilization wide preferences, with a way to drill down to individual cities to set exceptions to the whole civ rules.

-Wake All, Sleep All, Fortify All - Nuff Said

-A simple technology age modifier for combat so that middle age units can't take out tanks, thank you.

-Armies as fast as slowest unit in the army

I'm sure I could think of a dozen more. I love civ3 but am kind of disappointed in it at the same time. My feeling is that there are a lot of ideas out there that probably should have gone into civ3. It feels kind of unfinished.

Pius Popprasch · April 24, 2002, 10:30

Quote:

Originally posted by LordAzreal Anyway, in Diablo II, the Amazon society still has men. Women are the only ones allowed in the military and ruling class but the men are allowed jobs in the clergy, parliament or labouring.

Men are working in labor camps and mines. Those who survive illtreatment over many years(the fittest) donate sperm.

on-topic #8: With the help of the editor you can make Frigates available earlier, e.g. with Astronomy. Magnetism should be medieval. It was discovered earlier than Bach(1600AD).

Nym · April 24, 2002, 13:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
I would add a vastly improved diplomacy overview, where I can see ALL 16 civs at once, and the ability to check the status of another civ (war, pacts, trades) without leaving the diplomatic window (sorta "secret service" in CtP2).

Totally agree. I think it's one of the most important changes needed.

Nym · April 24, 2002, 13:36

Good ideas wrylachlan!

Some probably difficult to implement, but good ideas indeed!

Killazer · April 24, 2002, 15:51

Well the point of my post wasnt to change anything fundamental in the game. I simply want a few relatively easy to implement additions that would make the game easier to play and take a lot of uncessary tedious tasks out. Smoother flowing play where you are more concerned with the actual war battles and general town management rather than click click click click (x500) to move things around where that can be down with just a few key presses would make the game a better game overall, I think.

Theseus · April 24, 2002, 16:47

More GREAT ideas!!!

wrylachlan's Metroplis / Suburb system spawned a new thought:

Why can't I demand food as tribute??

Wasn't that very often the case?

Inverse Icarus · April 24, 2002, 16:48

the food trade has been asked for by apolytoners for quite a while. thanks firaxis.