Thread Tools
Old April 24, 2002, 13:53   #31
punkbass2000
Civilization III MultiplayerCivilization III Democracy GameApolyton UniversityCivilization III PBEM
King
 
punkbass2000's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:28
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Waterloo, ON, Canada
Posts: 1,500
I feel honoured!
__________________
"I used to be a Scotialist, and spent a brief period as a Royalist, but now I'm PC"
-me, discussing my banking history.
punkbass2000 is offline  
Old April 24, 2002, 14:28   #32
Arrian
PtWDG Gathering StormInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Cake or Death?
Deity
 
Arrian's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:28
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Kneel before Grog!
Posts: 17,978
Very interesting, Soren.

So with respect to culture *in a given city*, all that matters is who has more, not the ratio. Now with overall culture, is it also simplified like that? Whomever has more gets their number doubled in the city flip calculation? Or is it a range? 1 - 1.9 = even, 2.0 - 2.9 = 2x, 3.0 - 3.9 = 3x, etc.?

So, if snoopy captured a size 4 city (4 greeks) which has 4 "greek" squares, and snoopy's culture in the city is less than the prior owner, but his overall culture is equal, and the capitol factor is average (2000), and he puts 14 units in the city. Size 4 means no WLTKD. Assume no disorder.

(4+4)2 = 16 for the greeks. 16 - 14 units = 2. 2/2000 = .1%

The overall culture ratio is really important to the formula. If it simply doubles the number for whichever civ has more culture...

More culture for snoopy: 16 - 28... no chance of flip.
More culture for Greece: 32 - 14 = 18/2000 = .9% chance

If it's a ratio...

Snoopy's culture is 1.5x: 16 - 21 = no chance
Greece's culture is 1.5x: 24 - 14 = 10/2000 = .5%

Worse case scenario: Greece has 2x culture of Snoopy, city in disorder...hmm, is the Greek number (32)doubled for disorder or is Snoopy's (14) halved? Big difference: 32x2 = 64. 14/2 = 7.

Anyway, lets go along with worse-case: 64 - 14 = 50. 50/2000 = 2.5%

Hmm... any way you cut it, the chances of a flip under the circumstances Snoopy described are low.

Sorry for the rambling post... for some reason I find the nuances of the culture flip formula interesting.

-Arrian
__________________
grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
Arrian is offline  
Old April 24, 2002, 16:45   #33
Soren Johnson
PtWDG Gathering StormC4WDG The GooniesC4DG Gathering StormApolyCon 06 ParticipantsApolytoners Hall of FameC4BtSDG Realms Beyond
Civilization IV Lead Designer
 
Local Time: 18:28
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 335
Quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
Very interesting, Soren.

So with respect to culture *in a given city*, all that matters is who has more, not the ratio. Now with overall culture, is it also simplified like that? Whomever has more gets their number doubled in the city flip calculation? Or is it a range? 1 - 1.9 = even, 2.0 - 2.9 = 2x, 3.0 - 3.9 = 3x, etc.?

So, if snoopy captured a size 4 city (4 greeks) which has 4 "greek" squares, and snoopy's culture in the city is less than the prior owner, but his overall culture is equal, and the capitol factor is average (2000), and he puts 14 units in the city. Size 4 means no WLTKD. Assume no disorder.

(4+4)2 = 16 for the greeks. 16 - 14 units = 2. 2/2000 = .1%

The overall culture ratio is really important to the formula. If it simply doubles the number for whichever civ has more culture...

More culture for snoopy: 16 - 28... no chance of flip.
More culture for Greece: 32 - 14 = 18/2000 = .9% chance

If it's a ratio...

Snoopy's culture is 1.5x: 16 - 21 = no chance
Greece's culture is 1.5x: 24 - 14 = 10/2000 = .5%

Worse case scenario: Greece has 2x culture of Snoopy, city in disorder...hmm, is the Greek number (32)doubled for disorder or is Snoopy's (14) halved? Big difference: 32x2 = 64. 14/2 = 7.

Anyway, lets go along with worse-case: 64 - 14 = 50. 50/2000 = 2.5%

Hmm... any way you cut it, the chances of a flip under the circumstances Snoopy described are low.

Sorry for the rambling post... for some reason I find the nuances of the culture flip formula interesting.

-Arrian
actually, 2.5% is pretty high... the city will probably flip once every 10-15 turns with those kind of odds. but that is the worst case.

the culture value in the city is a simple less-than/greater-than proposition. If the former owner has more culture there than you, the effect of their citizens/tiles is doubled.

the overall culture factor is a ratio. For example, if the Romans have 10,000 total culture points and the Greeks have 15,000, the citizen/tile value would be (((citizens + tiles) * 15,000) / 10,000).
Soren Johnson is offline  
Old April 24, 2002, 17:09   #34
Harovan
staff
PtWDG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Monty PythonC4DG Gathering Storm
Civ4: Colonization Content Editor
 
Local Time: 00:28
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 11,117
Although I can live with culture flipping as it is, I think the element of emigration/immigration could have been implemented more "soft". A city could lose pop points to an adjacent city of another civilization, even repeatedly every few turns, till his own culture is built up. But it should not flip entirely. That would find more acceptance than the current system does.
Harovan is offline  
Old April 24, 2002, 17:38   #35
Arrian
PtWDG Gathering StormInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Cake or Death?
Deity
 
Arrian's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:28
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Kneel before Grog!
Posts: 17,978
Soren,

Ok, I understand now. Culture in a city is a 2x bonus for whomever has more, whereas overall civ-wide culture is turned into a ratio and then added as a multiplier.

Looks like strong culture is a warmonger's best friend I know it works for me.

Thanks,

-Arrian
__________________
grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
Arrian is offline  
Old April 24, 2002, 18:05   #36
Andrew Cory
Warlord
 
Local Time: 15:28
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: SF bay Area
Posts: 198
Quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
Looks like strong culture is a warmonger's best friend I know it works for me.
Oh, good lord yes! And I am glad that someone else seems to see this. I tend to be big big culture happy, often times putting liberaries and univerities as the first buildings built after temples. When you take into account that several of the culutral buildings are also happiness ones, having several of them helps keep your Republic or Democracy from expericencing war-weriness durring long conflicts...

Beyond that the abilty to "buy" a city (induce a revolt) is wonderful. All I have to do is ensure that I have 2 times the culture and then wait for a player to undergo a revolution (which usualy come when I am at war with the computer), and _wham_, I can pick up several new cities without having to go to war for them, and without any resistors...

Yep, culture is a warmonger's best friend...
__________________
Do the Job

Remember the World Trade Center
Andrew Cory is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 19:28.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team