Magic: The Gathering

[Urban Ranger]

Your deck seems to be loose and slow. What is the underlying idea?

[Jon Miller]

look at the atogs (especially the phantatog), the enchantresses, and rancor

thaumatog and land tax also fit

Jon Miller

[MrBaggins]

My type1 now (on MTG:IE) back in the day I was missing the mox pearl and mirror universe. Obviously no soldevi digger, quash's, temporal adept or diplo immunity, as there are now.

Type1 can now make a very competent denial/antidestruction deck.


ARTIFACT MANA
Black Lotus
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
LAND
4 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
3 Island
3 Gemstone Mine
2 Reflecting Pool
Thawing Glaciers
Mishra’s Workshop
COUNTERS
4 Mana Drain
3 Counterspell
2 Arcane Denial
2 Dissipate
Quash
Drain Power
CREATURES
2 Vesuvan Doppelganger
Guardian Beast
Ali from Cairo
Temporal Adept
CREATURE PROTECTION
3 Diplomatic Immunity
Lifeline
Bubble Matrix
DRAWING
3 Howling Mine
3 Demonic Tutor
Ancestral Recall
Timetwister
DAMAGE EFFECTS
2 Black Vise
OTHER
Copy Artifact
Time Walk
Mirror Universe
Reset
Soldevi Digger
Cursed Totem


The idea is quick blue/black/red and generic mana, fast draws with the howling mine and specific picks from tutors, just soak damage until ali from cairo and a diplo immunity gets down. Counters out the ying-yang. The bouncing from the temporal adept, to give me another shot at the counter, and graveyard/library control from timetwister/soldevi/tutors. Dopplegangers are there to use anything useful that an opponent puts out, or to dupe temporal adepts or ali or gb. Together, ali + diplo, gb + diplo, lifeline and bubble matrix are just about end of game if you can counter the odd mass spell... then all you do is mirror universe (when you're on 1 and he's on 20) and 2 black vices (or 3 with the copy artifact) + 3 howlings (4 if need be from the copy artifact) and when absolutely necessary ancestral recall on him, to get him over 4 cards at the end of his turn. EOG

[Jon Miller]

ok, here is an example of what ou can do know

Player A has a creature in play (let's say it is big) plus an island and a plains untapped

he has an alexi's cloak in his hand

PLayer B has no creatures, a rystic study in play, and 2 islands and a plains untaped

he has a swords in hand

it is player A's turn

player A declares an attack, and attacks with his creature

before blockers are assigned player B plays his swords on the creature

swords goes on the stack

in response, player A plays his Alexi's cloak on the creature

(if it was allowed to resolve, the Alexi's cloak would go on the creature and then the swords would fizzle cause it does not have a target)

but since player A does not pay the extra 1 (for rystic study), player B draws a card

he lucks out and draws a counterspell, which he plays

so the stack currently is this

counterspell (targetting alexi's cloak)
alexi's cloak
swords

the counterspell counters alexi's cloak and so the swords goes through and the creature is eliminated before it damages player B

Jon Miller

[Chowlett]

Ok, here's my deck-in-progress. It's a little rough around the edges and the main problem is a lack of ability to deal with flyers. Any suggestions?

Land:
9 Plains
9 Forest
4 Elfhame Palaces
3 Meteor Craters

Creatures:
4 Basking Rootwallas
2 Llanowar Elves
3 Confessors
4 Mystic Penitents
3 Quirion Elves
4 Wild Mongrels
3 Patrol Hounds
3 Standard Bearers
3 Fleetfoot Panthers
2 Coalition Honour Guards
2 Arrogant Wurms
1 Serra Angel

Enchants:
4 Armadillo Cloaks
1 Narcissism

Instants:
4 Disenchant
4 Shelter
4 Reviving Dose

[Jon Miller]

too many cards

you want no more than 60

a question, what do you normally not play in your deck??

if there is nothing, then try to make judgement calls on creatures

if there are small ammounts of enchantments and artifacts arround you can drop to 2 disenchants

Shelter
Narcissism
Reviving Dose

I don't recall what these do

it might be good to have a few creature controls also

go with 20 land also and 40 other cards

you don't really have the cards in to really need the manna acceleration from the elves that badly (so maybe cut a few of them)

Jon Miller

[Chowlett]

Shelter - 1W - Inst - Target Creature gains protection from colour of your choice until eot
Narcissism - 2G - Ench - G, discard: target creature +2/+2 until eot. G, sacrifice: ditto
Reviving Dose - 2W - Inst - gain 3 life, draw a card.

I know I have too many, I don't know what to drop. I'd drop the penitents, but they are about the only possible flyers I have atm. I still might.

For creature controls, I could consider Shackles and/or Pacifism

[Jon Miller]

do you have any kill, like topple or afterlife or swords or second thoughts??

pacificism is usually better than shackles

I would drop the shelter (not worth enough)

narcism is pretty interesting in a discard madness deck

do you have any card drawing (I probably already asked you this)

currently I would drop reviving dose, it just replaces the card, does not give you cards for those you discarded

drop these

3 Fleetfoot Panthers
2 Coalition Honour Guards
3 Quirion Elves
2 Llanowar Elves

add the devoted caretaker

you might have too much discard (do you have a howling mine even?/)

that leaves a few less than 40 so that you can put in some creature removal and card drawing

(I am actually not sure about the mystics or the patrol hounds, fleetfoot panthers and coalition honor guards might be better)

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

oh, see if you can get more arrogant worms

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

oh, I just had an additional thought

keep the fleetfoot in and use them for creature protection

if your creature has a terror played on it, play your fleetfoot panther in response to the terror play and bounce your endangered creature back to oyur hand

Jon Miller

[Chowlett]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
do you have any kill, like topple or afterlife or swords or second thoughts??

The first three don't exist anymore. I have 3 second thoughts, but it costs 4W, a bit expensive?

pacificism is usually better than shackles

Agreed, I often carry 4

I would drop the shelter (not worth enough)

Worth a go, I have only used it once so far.

narcism is pretty interesting in a discard madness deck

do you have any card drawing (I probably already asked you this)

Not much at all. I think I listed them all earlier

currently I would drop reviving dose, it just replaces the card, does not give you cards for those you discarded

Worth a go, although the 3 life on an instant can come in handy. Healing Salve is probably better on the front though.

drop these

2 Coalition Honour Guards
3 Quirion Elves
2 Llanowar Elves

add the devoted caretaker

Nice card! Shame I only have 1.

you might have too much discard (do you have a howling mine even?/)

No mines, no. I will "buy" some more and see what I get.

that leaves a few less than 40 so that you can put in some creature removal and card drawing

(I am actually not sure about the mystics or the patrol hounds, fleetfoot panthers and coalition honor guards might be better)

Jon Miller

get more arrogant wurms

Yeah, will try.

use fleetfoot for protection

Yep, done that a few times already...

[Jon Miller]

The first three don't exist anymore. I have 3 second thoughts, but it costs 4W, a bit expensive?

- yah, I had forgotten why I do not use them

pacificism is usually better than shackles

Agreed, I often carry 4

- stick them in

I would drop the shelter (not worth enough)

Worth a go, I have only used it once so far.

- there were far better cards for cheaper in the past and I bet there are currently

narcism is pretty interesting in a discard madness deck

do you have any card drawing (I probably already asked you this)

Not much at all. I think I listed them all earlier

- you might need to rework it then

currently I would drop reviving dose, it just replaces the card, does not give you cards for those you discarded

Worth a go, although the 3 life on an instant can come in handy. Healing Salve is probably better on the front though.

- you have more than enough healing in the 3 confessors

- healing sucks (well maybe not wil a new judgement card)

drop these

2 Coalition Honour Guards
3 Quirion Elves
2 Llanowar Elves

add the devoted caretaker

Nice card! Shame I only have 1.

- yah, but stick it in, is far better than shelters

you might have too much discard (do you have a howling mine even?/)

No mines, no. I will "buy" some more and see what I get.

get more arrogant wurms

Yeah, will try.

- ok

use fleetfoot for protection

Yep, done that a few times already...

-those with the caretaker should be enough

Jon Miller

[Chowlett]

I've also added a Tiger-Eye cameo to the deck. As I have discovered, it's useful against land destroyers. I have a reasonable set of cameos if you reckon any others would be useful.

Right, vaguely interesting cards found with the new set:

Wing Snare
Hurricane
Whip Silk
Quirion Dryad (not necessarily useful, just interesting)
Samite Elder
Gerrard's Command (at least 2 of)
Divine Light
Life/Death
another Pianna, Nomad Capt. (why haven't I got her in already?)
Piper's Melody
Divine Sacrament
Moment's Peace
another Pay No Heed
Transcendance (bizarre card!)

While I have no more drawing cards, I do have a lot of land-search cards, and a couple of Madness cards that I didn't really consider worth mentioning, such as Frantic Purification. I also possess 5 Mystic Familiars, which may come in useful.

[Jon Miller]

what is your deck currently

Jon Miller

[Jaakko]

IMO there are some things that need to be fixed in your deck Chowlett. First of all, try to make it as close to 60 cards as you can. Consistency in getting what you want is the most important thing in a deck.
Second, your creature base is a tad too underpowered. You have a lot of good weenies there, but I fear the flagbearers aren't going to carry their weight in most matchups (they aren't that good as fighting creatures).

I'm too tired to think about the composition any further, but the cards I'd definitely eliminate from the deck are Meteor Crater and Reviving Dose. Meteor Crater is only useful when you play double-casters, and that's assuming you already have a critter with the appropriate colour on the table. It's just too limited and unstable.
Reviving Dose on the other hand is simply ineffective for a lifegain spell. Being a cantrip helps, but it can't hope to compete with the likes of Life Burst and Heroes' Reunion. Not that you should make any of them maindeck, as it only dilutes your offensive power without giving you any real advantage (if you like lifegain, try turbo-fog ).

And finally, if you are in need of spot removal, Reprisal (bury tgt creature with power >4) is usually the best option. Your creatures are very good for what they do, but stuff like Spiritmonger and Laquatus's Champion can really ruin your day.

[Chowlett]

8 Plains, 6 Forest, 4 Elhame Palace, 3 Meteor Craters
Tigereye Cameo
2 Arrogant Wurm
4 Basking Rootwalla
3 Confessor
1 Devoted Caretaker
3 Fleetfoot Panther
4 Mystic Penitent
3 Patrol Hound
1 Serra Angel
3 Standard Bearer
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Armadillo Cloak
4 Pacifism
1 Narcissism
4 Disenchant

[Velociryx]

Chowlett: Thus far, what is your impression of the deck? How does it play? Does it seem fast? Slow? How many rounds (in general) until you can begin to develop your position? Are you finding yourself holding onto certain cards that you just don't seem to be able to use readily?

Do you have problems with color-specific mana (ie - find yourself holding a card that costs 3w simply because you can't seem to draw that third plains).

As I see it (and admittedly, I've not played with the majority of the cards that currently make up your deck), it's probably on the slow side. I'd guess 3-4 rounds of play before you're really in a position to start developing the deck. If that's the case, what defenses do you have against weenie decks and pure burn (don't know how powerful red is in this latest incarnation, but when I played regularly, the real powerhouse decks were black speed and burn decks, with white weenie making a strong showing as well).

On the surface, it looks like a pretty stable, solid deck, that would be greatly aided by the addition of some card drawing ability (howlers, jayemdae tomes, or whatever else you could put together).

I would imagine your worst nightmares to play against though, would be decks relying on raw speed (decks that have 1-4 casting cost creatures, backed up by stat-bumping instants and burn). Also, how many spells in your current arsenal have a casting cost of 3+ color specific mana. If you have too many of these, you open yourself up to vulnerability to land destruction decks.

What I would recommend would be to play this deck against a deck say....black/green, composed of nothing but 1-4 casting cost creatures (just whatever you happen to be able to lay your hands on)...exactly 60 cards, 18 land, the rest creatures. (when I was playing regularly, I'd test my decks against a 60 card "rat deck" (18 land, 42 rats) (I forget the name of the rats in question, but they were */* creatures, where * = the number of rats in play) When you can beat that deck regularly, you're there.

-=Vel=-

[Jon Miller]

try it out!!

6 midsize creatures
22 small creatures
4 creature control
5 creature boost (enchantments)
4 enchantment/artifact destruction

the Tigereye is questionable (what land search do you have??)

I am unsure about meteor crater, I would probably decrease the number of those down to 1 or so

it should be a decent weeny deck

you should be near winning by the time you attack with a Serra

oh, and stick in Pianna (you have a weeny deck)

try to pull out a few things to get down to 60 cards

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Chowlett: Thus far, what is your impression of the deck? How does it play? Does it seem fast? Slow? How many rounds (in general) until you can begin to develop your position? Are you finding yourself holding onto certain cards that you just don't seem to be able to use readily?

Do you have problems with color-specific mana (ie - find yourself holding a card that costs 3w simply because you can't seem to draw that third plains).

As I see it (and admittedly, I've not played with the majority of the cards that currently make up your deck), it's probably on the slow side. I'd guess 3-4 rounds of play before you're really in a position to start developing the deck. If that's the case, what defenses do you have against weenie decks and pure burn (don't know how powerful red is in this latest incarnation, but when I played regularly, the real powerhouse decks were black speed and burn decks, with white weenie making a strong showing as well).

On the surface, it looks like a pretty stable, solid deck, that would be greatly aided by the addition of some card drawing ability (howlers, jayemdae tomes, or whatever else you could put together).

I would imagine your worst nightmares to play against though, would be decks relying on raw speed (decks that have 1-4 casting cost creatures, backed up by stat-bumping instants and burn). Also, how many spells in your current arsenal have a casting cost of 3+ color specific mana. If you have too many of these, you open yourself up to vulnerability to land destruction decks.

What I would recommend would be to play this deck against a deck say....black/green, composed of nothing but 1-4 casting cost creatures (just whatever you happen to be able to lay your hands on)...exactly 60 cards, 18 land, the rest creatures. (when I was playing regularly, I'd test my decks against a 60 card "rat deck" (18 land, 42 rats) (I forget the name of the rats in question, but they were */* creatures, where * = the number of rats in play) When you can beat that deck regularly, you're there.

-=Vel=-

his deack is mostly small creatures

arround 2 manna or less

Jon Miller

[Velociryx]

If the spells are that cheap, then I'd heartily recommend stripping out two lands and that tiger's eye thing, to bring it down to sixty cards even. I assume the mulligan rule is still in force, and if so, you get a reshuffle if you get screwed on land.

At that point, the only thing you have to worry about is your lack of card drawing ability. Fortunately, IIRC, Howler's are universal (you gain the card drawing benefit too, if the other guy lays one down...and if weenie decks are still all the rage, then a lot of the people you'll play against will be sporting them....that's good for you).

And considering the cheap price of many of your cards then, your biggest trouble will come from being able to empty your hand all too easily. Looks like card drawing is your only real weakspot in the deck....well, that and, if I'm understanding the definitions of most of these cards, you've got precious few stat-bumpers, meaning that you'll need high survivability among your creature suite in order to get the kill. From some of the specials that have been discussed, it looks as though you DO have a measure of durability there tho, so that shouldn't be debilitating.

-=Vel=-
(a pity Feldon's Cane is, in all probability, a goner....would be worth making it 61 cards just to include it...)

[Chowlett]

It plays reasonably well atm, it's putting up at least a 50/50 win/loss ratio. I'll chuck in Pianna, and remove the cameo and the meteors and see what it's like. What do people reckon on a hurricane, since I don't have much flying?

[Chowlett]

Ok, I howked out the cameo, the meteors and the Standard bearers, and put in 2 Pianna's, a plains and a forest. 60 cards, and we'll test it tomorrow.

[Velociryx]

Personally, I think Hurricane would be a good addition to the deck. IIRC, the Armadillo thingy plays like a Spirit Link with stat-bumping effects, meaning life for you. Hurricane's groovy, in that it's very mana-efficient when you're up against a deck with lots of fliers, and even when you're not, it's a good way to nail down the kill, if you don't mind getting buffetted a bit yourself (which you shouldn't, given the Armadillo things). It's also a nice way around the fact that you don't really have a lot of stat-bumping.

Good fix, and gives you something to do with all that land you've got in the deck, considering that your critters are, by and large, cheap to cast. How many do you have? If you can find two cards to squeeze out, adding two in might not be a bad thing.

-=Vel=-

[Chowlett]

I have 1. I don't know what I'd throw out for it though, it's tricky. Any thoughts anyone?

[Velociryx]

If it was me, I'd start by ditching a Disenchant for it.

See how that plays....

-=Vel=-

[MrFun]

I feel like a misplaced MTG orphan now.

I need to get back into the game that I enjoyed so much.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
ok, here is an example of what ou can do know

Okay, so instants now resolve like interrupts (LIFO) instead of first-in-first-out.

So that means if you want to lightning bolt a creature of mine, I can put giant growth on it so it doesn't get smeared?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by MrBaggins
My type1 now (on MTG:IE) back in the day I was missing the mox pearl and mirror universe.

Why don't you go with a more counter/denial deck? Even my old type II blue/white control deck got 12 counters (4 each of counterspell, power sink, and spell blast) plus some critters with power spikes.

Arcane Denial and Quash are powerful cards.

[Urban Ranger]

What, they banned swords? Sheesh!

[Urban Ranger]

Whoa, they banned dark rituals.