Turns of SMACDatAss

[smhfan86]

I thought we had found the problem.

You and Fromage signed a pact and you sent him techs before you had made contact, which explains why Mong could still offer you the Hive comm, and the Hive your comm, and why it never showed pact in your profiles, even though you two were clearly getting energy from the pact.

Fromage, u did not kill 7 of my mindworms, more like 2 or 3 at most.

And you've got plenty more trance units than you claim.

[DilithiumDad]

Well, I thought something was fishy when I sas that the Spartans had a pact with the Hive, and when I asked for the Hive's commlink they were unable to produce it and pass it to me. You may have noticed that I went around to every other faction begging for the Hive's commlink, as that was the "missing link" for my being able to call elections.

I'm sure no one will believe me, but I'm not sure how I got the Hive's commlink. In 2205 I couldn't call countil and the next turn (2206) I could. I had two windows saying "so-and-so has accepted our diplomatic efforts" but of course with no details as to what was traded. I had thought it was from the Spartans, but maybe not.

I have my saved game files through 2198. I suggest we jump in the time machine and go back to the turn that the erroneous pact was formed. Granted, we all have knowledge that we did not have in 2200 or 2201 (location of unity pods, unexpected drones popping up, random events, etc.). It will be interesting to see how things turn out when everyone has forknowledge of what is to be.

[Mongoose]

I must retract a remedy I suggested in error.

Hive possession of Secrets of the Brain predates the Spartan relationship...it must have been IceCube's tech fromm the beginning. There is no need to disband trance units.

Likewise, CDS, Hive has had High Energy Chemistry for as long as I know about. No action need be taken in regard to any plasma armoured units.

[DilithiumDad]

If we go back to 2200 before the erroneous pact and tech trades were made, there will be no need for disbandment of units or other such strageness.

[KrysiasKrusader]

Following is everything that I am aware that has happened concerning the Spartan - Hive contact; pact; and call for election. This has all been checked and verifyed several times over.

- 2199: Fromage mistakes a probe foil (probably a Believer one) for one of my units. He contacts me by e-mail saying we made contact. I assumed it was legit (actaully it never crossed my mind that it wasen't), so I never bothered to check. My mistake, that (hopefully) shouldn't happen again.

- 2200: We treated. I don't remember who sent the offer in the diplomatic box (I think it was me), but we obviously both agreed to it.

- 2201: Fromage offers me a pact in the diplomatic box, I accept. I sent him Planetary Networks ( I have this in an e-mail).

- 2202: I sent him Industrial Automation (indirect evidence suggested from an e-mail I have).

- 2203: I may have sent him another tech (I can't remember).

- 2204: I probably sent him Sythetic Fossil fuels (I can't remember either, but it would fall in with our strategy). Myself, claw919, Fromage, and DilithiumDad start passing around everybodies comm. freq.'s to each other.

- 2205: Comm. freq.'s pass around completed. Election called by the P.K.'s.


So that's the story...

I would like to thank all the people who helped in finding out what happened.

EDIT: Corrected from new evidence.

[smhfan86]

Well, if we replay starting from before KK and Fromage contact each other, then all agreements made between the two no longer hold. And anyone else Fromage contacted afterwards.

Of course, they can make contact if and when they meet physically in game, however, they do know where each other are now, so that's an advantage.

Also, I believe that no email negotiations can take place until after contact in game, correct?

[Claw919]

Sorry - extreme chaos right now.

Okay - what does everyone want to do about this? We could either:

1) Continue the game as is, with some sort of sanctions against the 2 violators

2) Replay from turn 2199 (6 turns back), with caveat that KK and Fromage don't know each other

3) Drop the bugger altogether.

If anyone has any other suggestions, I'm all for it. Personally, I *HATE* replaying turns, so I'm personally for #1 - but whatever the majority would like.

And yes - no email negotiations before contact.

Thoughts? Anyone?

Dave

[Fromage]

I would vote for 1, but we should replay from 2205 so elections wouldn't be arranged and I wouldn't get those techs I got in 2206. I won't use any techs I got, before I contact someone willing to give them to me. That would include:
- Missile units
- Probes
- Planned

If we start from the 2205, I will chance away from planned, dispand my only probe and make just a truce with spartans. Then I would only have got some energy from trade, but I will lose 2-3 times more energy to useless probe teams and switching between planned and simple.

Smh, you are right about the trance units. In last two turns I have build much more of those. Anyway, I checked the 2199 file and IceCube really allready had techs for plasma/trance units, so that shouldn't be any problem.

Is playing from 2205 ok with everyone?

[Fromage]

KrysiasKrusader, those first years are a bit wrong.

2199 was the first turn I played.

2200 I saw the beliver's ship and contacted you.

Rest of them is correct, I think.

[DilithiumDad]

We only need to replay from 2202, when you consumated your tech deals. The treaty of 2201 is irrelevant --I doubt you got any commerce as Hive.

So I vote for replay from 2202, or from my 2201 save (2202 for Claw and Fromage).

I am also OK with comtinuing with penalties if they can be agreed to by Fromage, K.K. and Mongoose. I don't care about those details --anything is fine by me.

[KrysiasKrusader]

Yeah Fromage, your correct.

I had thought that we danced around for a year before the treaty, but obviously not since your first turn was indeed 2199.

I will edit my previous post to show this.

[Claw919]

DD does have a point - 2201 (and 1/2) would be a good starting point, but with the extra caveat that until KK and Fromage actually DO exchange commlinks (be it from another player, or contact, or the CEO calling an election), no election can be called.

It's most appropriate to hear from the people directly affected by this (eg. those currently attacking Fromage), as it's obviously directly affecting them most.

[Mongoose]

Originally posted by Fromage
I would vote for 1, but we should replay from 2205 so elections wouldn't be arranged and I wouldn't get those techs I got in 2206. I won't use any techs I got, before I contact someone willing to give them to me. That would include:
- Missile units
- Probes
- Planned

If we start from the 2205, I will chance away from planned, dispand my only probe and make just a truce with spartans. Then I would only have got some energy from trade, but I will lose 2-3 times more energy to useless probe teams and switching between planned and simple.

Smh, you are right about the trance units. In last two turns I have build much more of those. Anyway, I checked the 2199 file and IceCube really allready had techs for plasma/trance units, so that shouldn't be any problem.

Is playing from 2205 ok with everyone?

From whose 2205, Fromage?

We could proceed from DD's 2205 (his last turn) but we must do so with the knowledge that the Hive/Gaian and Hive/PK commlinks are unknown, as well as the Hive/Spartan. As best I can determine, Fromage's acceptance of the PK commlink in his 2205 turn is what gave DD the ability to call the council. That ability is nil until the Hive comm can be legally provided to him, or becomes unnecessary. (sly wink)

Sanctions - I agree to limit Hive sanctions to the SE change from PLANND to SIMPLE and the disbandment of the probe team. Of course, no units enabled by the techs you had received by your 2205 can be buikt until you can legally obtain them...probes, missile units and crawlers. Also, of course, the PLANNED and WEALTH SE choices cannot be used unitl the requisite techs can be obtained.

I disagree about shielding the Spartans from any sanctions. They have received about 50 commerce from this relationship since its inception. More importantly, they are as culpable in this entire fisasco as Hive is. It is the responsilility of both players to assure that the contact rules are followed.

However, I modify my suggestion that the Spartan penalty be the disbandment of all probes to limit that disbandment to 5 rows of probes...one foil or one speeder and one infantry or three infantry.

I suppose I ought to put this in the form of a resolution and submit it for a vote.

I propose we recommence play from DD's 2205 turn.

I further propose that the Hive/Spartan, Hive/Gaian and Hive/PK commlinks be considered not to ahve been obtained by either party until one of the three is obtained by legal game mechanisms and 'passed' to the others by diplomatic transaction. This will have to be a phantom transaction, as the game will no longer generate the item in the diplomacy screen.

Sanctions to be imposed on Hive: Disbandment of all probes, in the open, without mineral benefit to ongoing construction. Immediate change of SE away from PLANNED (Frontier or Fundy are OK, Hive has had Brain from the start) Neither PLANNED nor WEALTH can be selected until industrial automation can be legally obtained.

Units enabled by Synthetic Fuels (missile and fungicide) Industrial Automation (crawlers and trawlers) and Planetary Networks (probes of whatever chassis) cannot be built until the requisite tech can be legally obtained.

Sanctions to be imposed on Sparta: Disbandment in the clear of probe units which aggregate construction cost must be at least 5 rows of minerals, in the open, without mineral benefit to ongoing construction.

Please vote. I vote for the proposal, of course.

[Mongoose]

Cross posted with Dave.

I wish to minimize the replayed turns. I do not share DD's fascination with seeing how differently the campaign against the Hive might go if he has foreknowledge of what I will or can do. I cannot see any justification for providing Hive that reward.

Why should I lose the benefit of achieving strategic surprise?

[Fromage]

I meant replaying from the first player who plays 2205. I got two com links and Synthetic Fuels in that turn, so we wouldn't have to worry about those.

I would vote for 2205, but everything else will be fine too.

[smhfan86]

i think mongoose's proposal is agreeable.

also, i think for this one time only that whoever plays the turn first, fromage or kk, should use the right click feature of demand withdrawl to cause a state of vendetta, so that they do not gain any more energy from thier pact(which can only be downgraded to treaty in the trade screen).

they can then go to a truce. but after that, they would have to legally obtain a commlink before upgrading.

oh, and if fromage has stolen from or infiltrated anyone, then we must take that into account as well.

[Fromage]

First probe saw action in 2206, so that shouldn't be a problem.

[Claw919]

Okay, then.

We have Mongoose, SMHFAN, and (I vote) myself in agreement with Mongoose's proposal in its entirety. One more vote carries the day - and DD would then replay 2205 and we could proceed as noted (with, I suppose, the addition of the SMHFAN Vendetta addition to nullify commerce).

Anyone else have input? Fromage? KK? Sinman? DD?

I'm *VERY* pleased that we wouldn't have to rebegin from like 6 turns prior.

[Claw919]

P.S. Mong - I love your defence of your (and SMHFAN's) cowardly, cooridinated shang-hai of Fromage.

[Mongoose]

Coordinated!!? I charge in from the sea with my miniscule expeditionary force while my continental ally sits in base and builds crawlers! Some coordination!

It's just Fromage's bad luck to step in the path of a bullet meant for Ice Cube.

And how cowardly?

[Fromage]

Everything is fine with me.

BTW. Mongoose's attack was very brave assault from the sea. Those women and children in my colony pods should have stopped the landing of your highly trained missile marines.

Anyway, it is nice to be the losing part when playing with Hive, because that never happens in normal games

[DilithiumDad]

It's fine with me, although the penalty to the Spartans seems very harsh, especially with their industry penalty! Also, KK is a relative newbie. But anyway, I'll go along with it.

Guess I won't have a chance to undo any of my major screw-ups over the past 6 turns!

[KrysiasKrusader]

I am currently replying. It just takes me long to type...

[smhfan86]

harsh, dd?

considering the time lost, frustration, etc... it's probably not harsh enough, but i can live with it.

[smhfan86]

oh, if fromage has stolen a map or gained infiltration, that's foreknowledge that he and his allies shouldn't have. so we must take that into account too, because simply replaying from before doesn't erase that info from memory.

[KrysiasKrusader]

Please, keep in mind that: The following does not in any which way suggest that I am trying to absolve myself from the current situation...


But before I decide on a proposal, I usually like to consider all the facts first.

And then, I take a step back and try to look at things from - the outside

looking inwards.

It is a simple matter to make either assumptions and/or suppositions, basing a

decision on what we percieve (or would like to) instead of, going thruogh the

trouble of finding out what the actuall facts are first. This is just the way that I

approach things anyways.


Now please note: I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing with the proposal yet,

perhaps after this, a new proposal will emerge...


Now, as to the amount of energy Sparta generated during the Hive - Sparta union:

2201: 3
2202: 8
2203: 8
2204: 8
2205: 9

For a total of 36 energy.

I havent veryfied the Hive (but I can go back and do so), but it should be in the order

of 18 - 24 energy (or there abouts).

The further we go back in time (if we were to replay), the less that amount will be,

of course.


Other things to consider:


- I (as well as evryone else now), is pretty well aware of what is in store for the Hive.

I (we) are now armed with this knowledge, and will surely adjust our strategies in order to

incorporate this new found knowledge.



- In 2201: Since the Brelievers and the Morganites were already aware of something that was

out of the ordinary (refer to Mongoose's post of: 13-08-2002 21:26). Why did they not contact

me or Fromage ? Or at least claw919 (the CMN) ? And ask for an explanation. Nothing against the rules

with: " Hey ! You and the Hive have commerce. How can that be without each others comm. links ?"

Then perhaps it would not have gotten this far.




- Sometime around 2200 - 2202 ( I have it in an e-mail ). The Gaian's had told me that they had

everybodies comm. freq. also (!). It never occured to me to verify this either. Although now that I have,

this was not the case. (hmm...)




- The Peace Keepers asked me for the Hive comm. freq. in 2203. At that time, it was not that I couldn't give it to

them (refer to DilithiumDad's post of: 14-08-2002 15:16), but more like I was holding out

till we had reached an agreement first! (lol) I was not yet aware that I couldn't pass it on.

The next year, 2204, when the Gaian's, Peace Keepers, and Spartans had reached an agreement and attempted to call an election,

we found out that we couldn't. I couldn't figure out for the life of me how come (shakes head) this was so. I thought it was a

bug in the game. So... the solution we come up with, was to pass all the comm. links amongst ourselves and the first one who

could call the election, would do so. Obviously this came about in the P.K. 2205 turn. (needless to say that there was a few e-mails

between us regarding this.)


So even though the Hive and Sparta union are the root cause of all this, I

would like everybody to consider what was just presented, before imposing a

resolution or voting on a proposal.

Let's keep it fair and think about what part we had ( or at least could have done about it ), also.

And one final note...

At the begining of the game, when the rules were established. We we're all

advised that we had a CMN ( claw919 ) that was there to settle something like

this. I don't remember any of us changing this.

Thank You.

[KrysiasKrusader]

Well, do I type slow or what !

[smhfan86]

Firstly, M and I simply thought it was a bug in the game, and that it would be resolved the the next turn year.

Secondly, I believe the sanctions should be greater than the calculated ecs, etc, because the perpetrators of the illegal actions now have foreknowledge of what is to take place.

Thirdly, it's caused a lot of frustration.

Also, as a rule of thumb, always tell the person you're contacting in game how, when, and where contact was made.

If someone's contacting you and doesn't say how, when or where, then ask and verify.

This could have all been avoided if that was followed.

[Mongoose]

KK - I made two errors. First, I presumed at first that it was merely a display bug in the faction profile. When that seemed not to be the case, I could not figure what was causing it. The second error was that I let it go because I didn't think the game effect would be great enough to warrant making an issue of it, particularly since I didn't know how it came to pass. Better, I thought, to avoid any of the acrimony that transpired in CGN 12.

The game effect proved to be immense. When that immensity was brought home to me, I began to howl.

I do not understand why the sanction proposed is considered harsh. Consider that the research effect alone of these years' of comerce might shave a year off of your development of D:AP and/or MMI. Would you prefer a sanction that required you to change research goals, subsequently losing 50% of your accumulated labs? THAT would be harsh.

Myself, methinks thou protesteth overly.

Are you seriously advocating that Claw919 serve as CMN to a game in which he is playing? Excuse me, but that is ridiculous. The CMN must be a neutral party, not a particpant with a vested interest in the outcome. I certainly would not wish to serve so in any of my games.
Claw's 'CMN' role was merely to organize and to start the game, not to moderate it after it was going.

We have two options. We can settle this ourselves, collectively, or we can seek an outside authority to do it for us. If my suggestions seem unreasonable to you, I reiterate my suggestion that MariOne set the sanctions, if he's willing to do so. If not him, perhaps Knowhow2, since he is holdiing the passwords for the game.

[smhfan86]

fromage, when u say your first probe saw action in 2206, you meant you actually used it in 2206, right? because you had one built in 2205, and would've had a second one built by 2206.