City Bribing.

markusf · May 1, 2002, 13:17

The cost for bribing an enemy city depends on a number of factors. The formula below contains all the details; it is taken from an alt.games.civ2 post by Daniël Proost:
Cost = ( ( enemy gold + 1000 ) / ( distance + 3 ) ) x citysize

I am not sure which distance is meant in this formula. It is probably the distance between the city and its capital. However, the cost depends on the square your Diplomat or Spy bribes from. It often pays to try to bribe from different squares - I have observed the cost vary by as much as 20%. At any rate, the distance is also influenced by the following factors:

Courthouse in city half distance
Enemy government is Communism max. distance is 10
Enemy has no palace distance = 32

The following (cumulative) modifiers apply to the cost for bribing:

City in disorder -50%
No units in city -50%
City was yours before -50%
Spy is bribing -16%
Veteran unit is bribing -33%

rah · May 1, 2002, 13:52

Great library entry

http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum1/HTML/001678.html?36

RAH

finbar · May 1, 2002, 19:43

That's the formula listed in the "Civ 2 Strategy Guide" by David Ellis. There are some other interesting bits and pieces. The distance is from the enemy's palace and diagonal squares count as 1.5 squares when figuring distance.

It has been noted prior to this that the bribe cost is affected by the direction from which you approach the city. But I've never understood why. Or, at least, why it can have such an effect. Presumably the difference between the various approaches amounts to the number of squares within the city radius, which aren't all that many. Or is the difference in bribe cost in this case related to something else altogether?

The book also lists the formula for the cost of bribing a unit:

Bribe Cost = ((enemy treasury + 750) / (distance + 2)) X (Enemy Unit Cost / 10)

Some of the other factors are the same as the forumla for bribing a city - distance calculation, 32 if there's no enemy Palace, 10 for Communism, etc. But the distance is a given 16 if the unit is a Barb, and the bribe cost is "Bribe Cost /2" if the unit is a Settler.

It should be noted that I've posted a couple of these formulae from the Strategy Guide over the years and some of the arithmetically-inclined posters have questioned them.

ravagon · May 1, 2002, 21:37

I came to the conclusion some time ago that there was some sort of big price rise when trying to bribe a city away from a civ with a fundamentalist govt.

Can anybody else confirm/deny this?

finbar · May 1, 2002, 22:20

There's no specific reference to Fundy in the modifiers. It's probably the fact that a Fundy government accumulates a really massive treasury, so the treasury figure in the equation would be monstrous.

rah · May 2, 2002, 08:50

Quote:

Originally posted by finbar
It has been noted prior to this that the bribe cost is affected by the direction from which you approach the city. But I've never understood why. Or, at least, why it can have such an effect. Presumably the difference between the various approaches amounts to the number of squares within the city radius, which aren't all that many. Or is the difference in bribe cost in this case related to something else altogether?

I believe it was determined that the distance component was calculated on the square the diplo was in when it entered the city. So depending on which side you entered the city from, the distance component could vary by as much as 3 squares (if diag.)
Depending on the other components, this along could make a significant difference on cost. So it was always considered best to bribe a city from the side of the city that was farthest from your opponents capital.

RAH

DrFell · May 2, 2002, 09:26

Quote:

Originally posted by ravagon
I came to the conclusion some time ago that there was some sort of big price rise when trying to bribe a city away from a civ with a fundamentalist govt.

Can anybody else confirm/deny this?

Fundie has 0 corruption so perhaps it counts palace distance as 0 in the calculation.

May 2, 2002, 12:06

do you people use sliderules when you play. for all these calculations.. just wondering : )

finbar · May 2, 2002, 19:48

The formulae are of arcane interest. The bottom line is - either you've got the cash to bribe, or you haven't.

rah · May 2, 2002, 19:53

Yes, knowing what impacted the formulae just helps you figure what will be the cheapest without approaching the city and then finding you don't have enough money.

RAH

Alexander's Horse · May 2, 2002, 20:05

Why are we even talking about city bribe - does anyone play this rule?

rah · May 3, 2002, 08:27

Good point.
But someone did bring it up,
and posts count here.

RAH

SlowwHand · May 3, 2002, 11:33

What do you mean, does anyone play this rule?

rah · May 3, 2002, 12:19

He means, that most mp groups disallow city bribing and was wondering if there were many people that allow it in their mp games.

Flatlander Fox · May 3, 2002, 22:49

I used to play city bribes, but then was appalled when I would lose entire civs to some trade-mongering ***hole who would wipe me out in a turn or two.

I need all the protection I can get

.

markusf · May 4, 2002, 02:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Flatlander Fox
I used to play city bribes, but then was appalled when I would lose entire civs to some trade-mongering ***hole who would wipe me out in a turn or two.

I need all the protection I can get

.

For some reason not to many people want to play bribing anymore.. I played a 7 player a week ago on the zone.. horrid start, only had 5 cities at 2000 bc but i made 800 gold a turn from taxes.. Destroyed a civ every 3 turns after that

DrFell · May 4, 2002, 11:10

I play on the zone, and I'll play bribes, but almost noone else does.

SlowThinker · May 4, 2002, 11:53

Quote:

Originally posted by finbar
It should be noted that I've posted a couple of these formulae from the Strategy Guide over the years and some of the arithmetically-inclined posters have questioned them.

Could you post them again?

finbar · May 4, 2002, 20:55

Markus has already posted the city bribe and trade formulae (in another thread), I've posted the unit bribe formula - what else would you like?

SlowThinker · May 5, 2002, 12:07

Quote:

Originally posted by finbar
Markus has already posted the city bribe and trade formulae (in another thread), I've posted the unit bribe formula - what else would you like?

my order:
Corruption, waste,
the system how the red/black hats arise due to city number (for example, we know that deity under despotism causes that first 4 cities have 1st citizen content. But we don't know the formula that reveals number of red/black hats for higher numbers of cities)

finbar · May 5, 2002, 20:48

Ask and ye shall receive!

Corruption

Under most systems of government, the corruption and waste experienced by a city increase with distance from the capital. The formula:

Corruption = ((Trade x Distance) x 3 / (20 x (4 + Government))

Where:

Government = 1 (Despotism), 2 (Monarchy), 3 (Fundy), 4 (Republic), 0 (Communism and Democracy)

Distance = the city's distance from the capital (diagonal squares count as 1.5 squares). The maximum value of Distance = 36.

Government = Government + 1, if the city is celebrating "We Love The * Day".

Distance = (Distance x 2) + Difficulty Level (possible values = 0 through to 5), if the government is Despotism.

Waste

Waste is calculated based on the city's surplus shields. It doesn't take into account shields utilised to support the city's units. The formula:

Waste = ((Shields x Distance) x 3) / (20 x (4 + Government))

The modifiers are the same as for the Corruption calculation, except the maximum value of Distance = 16.

Happiness

The number of cities you can control without experiencing additional unhappiness is based on a number of factors, including the difficulty level and type of government. The formula:

Max. Cities = Riot Factor - ((Difficulty Level x 2) x ((Government /2) + 2))/2)

Where:

The default value of Riot Factor = 14

Difficulty Level = a range from 0 through to 5

Government = 0 (Anarchy), 1 (Despotism), 2 (Monarchy), 3 (Communism), 4 Fundy), 5 (Republic), 6 (Democracy).

So there you go! If you want the formulae for the calculation of resource and population pollution, they're here, too.

Remember, one or more of these formulae have been questioned by algebraically-inclined posters before today. I just can't remember which ones.

rah · May 7, 2002, 14:35

So world size doesn't effect either?
God, my memory is failing.

RAH

finbar · May 7, 2002, 19:54

According to the formulae, no. But, from memory, map size does impact on tech turns.

rah · May 7, 2002, 20:43

That must be what my feeble mind was thinking.

RAH
Just another senior moment

finbar · May 7, 2002, 21:29

Actually, I'm now inspired to hunt through the book for a forumla for tech research to see what effect the map size has.

I have to tell you, though, transcribing all these brackets and + and - and / symbols is sending me cross-eyed!

Okay, so it's causing me to roll my eyes. Near enough.

finbar · May 7, 2002, 22:51

Mmm. There's no formula - per se - for tech acquisition. Under Map Size, it just says that the larger the map, the amount of time required to research techs is subtly altered (increased). Interestingly, the increase is predicated on the thinking that, the larger the map, the longer the game.

The only stats given, which I think I've posted before, apply to difficulty level. The Science Increment - the modifier used to help determine how many light bulbs are required to discover the next tech - is as follows:

Chief: 6; Warlord: 8; Prince: 10; King: 12; Emperor: 14; Deity: 14. With the rider that the Deity number may be adjusted +1 or -1 depending on how far ahead (or behind) you are in research. This, I assume, applies to SP games.

The AI's Science Increments are different:

Chief: 14; Warlord: 13; Prince: 12; King: 11; Emperor: 10; Deity: 10. The higher the level - assuming the better the human player - the more help the AI gets.

deity · May 8, 2002, 05:16

good work finbar, but I think the Happiness formula is missing something or brackets are wrong. Try entering figures into it...

finbar · May 8, 2002, 06:32

That might be the one that one of the algebraically-inclined posters shot down last time. I will, though, double check what I typed against what's in the book.

SlowThinker · May 8, 2002, 07:54

Thx, finbar.

Pollution formulas are at CivFanatics.

Quote:

Max. Cities = Riot Factor - ((Difficulty Level x 2) x ((Government /2) + 2))/2)

So no formula that would define >number of additional red/black hats< in relation to >number of cities< ? Only the first city that riots is defined?

finbar · May 8, 2002, 08:45

ST - that's the only formula in the book that refers to unhappiness. Deity, in the post above, has queried the formula. I've double-checked what I typed against what's in the book. I typed it correctly. From memory, whomever queried it last time might have queried the number of brackets. I'm no maths expert, but there do seem to be a lot of brackets.