War vs. Iraq - Ousting Saddam?

David Floyd · May 2, 2002, 15:15

US officials have said several things recently regarding Iraq, the implication being there are plans in the works to invade and oust Saddam.

Given that most-all Arab States won't let the US stage military forces out of their country, how will this be done, in your opinions?

Az · May 2, 2002, 15:23

turkey.

Ecthy · May 2, 2002, 15:24

that'd mean marching through Kurdistan... that likely?

David Floyd · May 2, 2002, 15:27

Also, an invasion over the mountains? We'd take large numbers of casualties, which is usually politically unacceptable. It would be an infantry fight - we'd be largely unable to exploit our advantages. We'd certainly win, but would it be worth 5-10,000 casualties? I think not.

Also, Turkey doesn't have to let us invade from there.

Garth Vader · May 2, 2002, 15:28

I think they will come up with an offer that the Saudis will accept.

Ecthy · May 2, 2002, 15:29

Terrain is not that much of a problem, Turkey tends to cross the border with tanks (German tanks

) in order to persecute Kurd warriors. Plus, you could take out the Iraqis with air force, but then that wouldn't be 100% effective. So terrain wouldn't be that big a problem, but Kurdish resistance against anything non-Kurdish might become one

Ecthy · May 2, 2002, 15:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Garth Vader
I think they will come up with an offer that the Saudis will accept.

That would have been a reasonable answer 10 years ago, but not anymore I'm afraid.

Kropotkin · May 2, 2002, 15:31

Attacking from turkey would possibly give the US a chance to link up with the anti-saddam forces that stil seems to survive there but it's hard to say if they can fill the ranks to such a degree that the US army can avoid causalites. Also, they would probably not like the fact that the US gets there with turkish help considering what turks have a tradition to do with minorites.

It would in any case be a gamble so it's not likely...

How about Kuwait? They do have a favour to return.

David Floyd · May 2, 2002, 15:34

The Kuwaiti people recently demonstrated against the US.

Just because Turkish tanks go after Kurds doesn't mean it's good terrain for mobile warfare.

Kropotkin · May 2, 2002, 15:35

Who cares about the people?

Ecthy · May 2, 2002, 15:35

Are your tanks worse than theirs then?

David Floyd · May 2, 2002, 15:39

Certainly not. But what we did in 1990 - with the huge flaking maneuver, US Marines threatening an invasion tying down the Republican Guard, etc., could not be repeated.

Az · May 2, 2002, 15:39

as far as I know , the mountains end in Turkish territory. the Iraqi side of the border is a plateu.

I think that this might be a good opportunity to settle once and for all the issue of the kurd people , and create a homeland for them in northen Iraq.

since there is no Iraqi nation, but rather simply an iraqi state, this could be done. Turkey could also contribute a small parcel of land.

Then , all the kurds in the world will have a place to call their home.

laurentius · May 2, 2002, 15:41

First we should oust PM Sharon and his fellow war criminals

Kropotkin · May 2, 2002, 15:41

Yeah just like the palestinians

oh sorry couldn't help myself....

Ecthy · May 2, 2002, 15:43

I'm for a Kurdish nation and state.... if they behave

kolpo · May 2, 2002, 15:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Dalgetti
turkey.

It think it is not that sure or they will allow it. Especial since the Israeli operation has Turkey moved towards a more pro arab stance. Also the improving relations between Turkey and Greece means that Turkey doesn't needs there military cooperation with the US and Israel that much as it did in the past.

The Turkish economy isn't already doing very well, worsening relationsships with there arab friends wouldn't help there economy at all, it could even lead to economic embargo's.

In my view will turkey only help if they can gain a lot for themself, Like a part of Iraq.

David Floyd · May 2, 2002, 15:46

Quote:

since there is no Iraqi nation, but rather simply an iraqi state, this could be done. Turkey could also contribute a small parcel of land.

No. Both Turkey and Iraq are sovereign states - we have no business taking land from either of them, or the moral authority.

mactbone · May 2, 2002, 15:57

David, how does morality fit into this at all? Why does every action a state takes supposed to be moral?

Az · May 2, 2002, 15:57

blah, David, you know that your moral authority doesn't matter. We're talking RealPolitik. the thing that does.

and turkey will gain.
It won't have as much trouble with the kurds, for example.
also , with the renewed flaw of oil from Iraq that will , surely , have to pass through turkey , when the dust settles down , the turkish economy has much to gain from such a developement.

The turkish leadership is imo pro-Israeli. even the street is pretty neutral in the cities.
There is an Israel captain in one of the top turkish football teams. I don't think there is a major problem , except with muslim fundies.

David Floyd · May 2, 2002, 15:58

Morals and right and wrong always matter.

mactbone · May 2, 2002, 16:00

OK... and you live in a world with clear right and wrong...

...as decided by you

David Floyd · May 2, 2002, 16:02

As decided by natural rights and principles of non-coercion.

Kropotkin · May 2, 2002, 16:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Dalgetti
with the renewed flaw of oil from Iraq that will , surely , have to pass through turkey

Iraq do have a coastline...

Kropotkin · May 2, 2002, 16:05

on morality: In conclution; David argues that the US doesn't have the moral right to give away land owned by a sovreigen country but all the rights in the world to invade them, destroy their buildnings, burn their crops and kill them.

DinoDoc · May 2, 2002, 16:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Kropotkin
on morality: In conclution; David argues that the US doesn't have the moral right to give away land owned by a sovreigen country but all the rights in the world to invade them, destroy their buildnings, burn their crops and kill them.

David is against the invasion of Iraq.

Kropotkin · May 2, 2002, 16:11

Notice the

David Floyd · May 2, 2002, 16:11

Indeed - I oppose virtually every war we've ever fought

DinoDoc · May 2, 2002, 16:12

Quote:

Originally posted by David Floyd
Indeed - I oppose virtually every war we've ever fought

Which one's do you support?

Oldenbarnevelt · May 2, 2002, 16:14

Before starting Desert Storm II, the American government will have some explaining to do. The fact that Iraq is an ugly dictatorship is hardly reason enough to mount a massive attack. I can see two valid reasons to oust Saddam:
1) Iraq supports al-Qaeda on the same scale as the Taleban did;
2) Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, or is about to get them.
So far I haven't seen proof of either. Before George W goes ahead with his new war, he should disclose parts of the intelligence he has (intelligence as in CIA, not as in IQ

) and present ample evidence to the American people and America's allies.

2) seems very likely, 1) seems less likely, considering Saddam is a secular leader, not an Islamist.