Custom Race- Best Stats? - Page 7

vmxa1 · November 12, 2002, 14:48

I think most know that you get 4 techs from Orion and can capture ships and possibly get tech from them (anyones). Not sure what you mean by pop cheat. I would guess you mean capture a planey and them give it back or let it be taken? Yes that is too much trouble.

vmxa1 · November 12, 2002, 16:23

Any chance you want to give a run down on your game. Starting save and some highlights of the process for the first 100 turns?

bakalov · November 13, 2002, 04:05

OK

I will give you the details about the first 100 turns with my fav race - may be it's not too easy to explain but ....

Some general hints:
1. since my race concentrates on research it has drawback on production ... I almost every time have 2 workers that produce "wasteless" production - usually the third one begins to add waste. This may be not true only for the first few turns or if I get a megawealth leader so i have much money and can afford to buy buildings. These workers have to construct colony base, but I NEVER allow them to finish it - just when I research a new tech and have a building to build, I change the colony base to the desired building. Later I change the colony base with battlestation or a ship.

2. I usually buy buildings when the price falls down to 2:1 (money : production) or it is close to that. There may be exceptions.

3. When a leader comes up and I want him but dont have the money I set my workers to build trade goods and raise the tax to 50% - this way I convert the production to money with 3/4 ratio instead of 1/2

4. When a leader comes and I want him, but want him for later stages of the game (there is no instant benefit from him) I hire him the las turn possible (saving money for 30 turns from his salary)

5. My second colony is ALWAYS a conquered one

And here is my sequence of research/buildings (for large maps, for small it can be changed according to the events):

1. Research Lab
2. Automated Factory
3. Hydroponic Farm
-- (Biospheres may be here if I have a megawealth leader, else I leave them after Robo Miners)
4. Cloning Center
5. Soil Enrichment
6. Supercomputer
7. Holo simulator
8. Spaceport
9. Robo miners (I completely build this by turn 80)

I research straight to the buildings; dont bother to research other techs - even dont have ships :-)

While I am building the robo miners I put some ppl for scientists (to gain about 100 RP/ turn) and research the
3 50RP techs for a turn (these required for ships); then raise my science to 160 and research the colony ships.

then I aim for the following techs:
Battle Scanner
Class III shield
Tritanium Armor
Space Academy

When I have these I build an academy and a battleship that has:

5 Hv AF Mass Drivers
10 Pd AF Mass Drivers

Battle Pods
Battle Scanner
Heavy Armor
Inertial Stabilizer

5 Free space for some more defence :-)

next: Outpost ship? may be ...
next : a few transports

If I have a pilot I add him to the ship ... and happy hunting ....

No one this time of the game can beat this ship, it can beat any count of enemies. It can't beat missile bases though unless they are with very low armor :-( If the enemy has missile bases I go for 4th level of force fields and throw in ECM Jammer + raise Hv Mass Drivers to 7 and lower PD Mass Drivers to 9 (1 free space

And with 2 such ships I can beat missile bases too; may be 3 ships if there are some with very high armor.
I can finish this ship about turn 110 (may be a bit sooner or a bit later, depends on luck

Zortrium armor helps too

bakalov · November 13, 2002, 04:18

Yesterday I played 4 games on Impossible, Small galaxy, max number of opponents with this race and won them all :-) There was some intrigue though ....

In one of the games there was a time space anomaly on my starting system, and I survived it; Another game the computers decided to ruin me with spies - even they destroyed my starting starbase - I built missile base for def and continued - rebuilt my star base after I had Robo Miner Plant

. Another game the first face I saw was Darlok's and it was very early (about turn 10) - very unpleasant, they declared war on me and again I beat them (that time I had to research force fields 1 very early, but it helps

and build a cruiser with shields/ mass drivers to defend myself for some time.

On small maps it may be a good idea to research Xeno Psychology early on so you can make good relations with the non-repulsive races.

And I usually build little or no spies for defence. May be some if they are sabotaging

Dont bother if they steal a tech - I have much more them. I'm just saying: "You will see, bastards!"

vmxa1 · November 13, 2002, 13:37

There are reasonable steps, but you would need to be creative to do them.
Soil and Clone are on the same track, so if non creative, you only get one or the other. Same for Holo as it is with super computer and no one is going to pass up the super comp.
Heavy Armor is with Automatic factories, so can not have both as a non creative.
Here is what I am looking for : see save and logs are all in the thread Mirv Missiles...

bakalov · November 14, 2002, 03:28

Yes, vmxa1, you have to be creative for that strategy ...
as I said before my fav race is:

Creative
Aquatic
Artifacts HW
Large HW
+1 Research

Low Gravity HW
-10 Espionage
-20 Ship Attack

You have to try that race :-) and experienced player like you will see that there is no chance to lose to AIs with it, no matter the map or starting tech level. It is very powerful at the start and well-balanced .....

On prewarp it starts with 30 RP from turn 1 and IS Creative. With full homeworld and supercomputer tech it generates more than 200 RP without leaders or treaties. You only have to overwhelm the opponents by tech :-) Never build colonies, just conquer all :-)

For huge maps again dont build colonies, build some outposts to get to the enemies quickly if necessary.

bakalov · November 14, 2002, 03:49

BTW are we all eager for MOO3 ? :-)

vmxa1 · November 14, 2002, 03:52

Yes I have played it and of course won with it and variants of it, with many map sizes and configurations. It is one of the strong races, but my point is I have not found any that are invincible. So the people that tell me they are, make me ask, what the heck am I doing wrong? What part of the game do not understand. What do they do that I don't? I have not found the answer. Of course I can think of a few things that are not quite kosher, but they all claim that is not the case. So I keep saying, just give me a save at the start and maybe log of the first 100 turns and a save at that pointl and one where the game is on hand. Then I will see what the thing is that I have failed to grasp. So far none have and I understand that may a bit of an effort, but not much and could be interesting to do. I mean I do not want to come out and say I am a master player, but OTOH I have a great deal of experience with this game. I keep hoping to get that answer and improve some more. So if you can clue me in, that would be great.

vmxa1 · November 14, 2002, 03:53

Yes most here are ready for Moo3.

bakalov · November 15, 2002, 02:59

Today I have the logs + saves of 2 games and will post them in the other thread where your logs are. I played these last night with the only purpose to make logs :-)

xoham · November 15, 2002, 21:34

With Bakalov's race:

Creative
Aquatic
Artifacts HW
Large HW
+1 Research

Low Gravity HW
-10 Espionage
-20 Ship Attack

... I seemed to do very well. However, I took a ship defense hit instead of ship offense. I researched straight to planetary supercomputer and out-researched everyone (use the Psilon face). It was surprsingly easy. I started fighting with mass drivers, then moved to a graviton BB (I think BB as an abbreviation for Battleship make no sense... at all). I was a bit concerned when the Mrrshans surrendered to the Darloks, who were already doing well. But I stomped them anyway.

Man, creative is really easy; at least in my experience FOR SINGLE PLAYER GAMES.

originalbork · November 16, 2002, 00:46

Looking at the rookies make claims that creative is the best is almost comical. In a single player huge prewarp organic 100-130 turns is all it takes to exterminate the competition. Not that single player games count for squat.

The simple combination is always

Unification
Aquatic
+2 Production
Large & Rich Home
Repulsive
-20 Ground & Defense

By the time you roll out your mirved emg BB's with Class 3 they never go out of style when playing single player. Everything past that is gravy for mop up time.

If you play Multiplayer, creative will handcuff you unless left untouched for over 100 turns.

1 on 1 a creative in Pre or Ave tech will never have enough population to match that race. They will need to have a complete mismatch of a start to have prayer 1 of being in the game when it counts.

Bork

vmxa1 · November 16, 2002, 05:00

Quote:

Originally posted by originalbork
Looking at the rookies make claims that creative is the best is almost comical. In a single player huge prewarp organic 100-130 turns is all it takes to exterminate the competition. Not that single player games count for squat.

The simple combination is always

Unification
Aquatic
+2 Production
Large & Rich Home
Repulsive
-20 Ground & Defense

By the time you roll out your mirved emg BB's with Class 3 they never go out of style when playing single player. Everything past that is gravy for mop up time.

If you play Multiplayer, creative will handcuff you unless left untouched for over 100 turns.

1 on 1 a creative in Pre or Ave tech will never have enough population to match that race. They will need to have a complete mismatch of a start to have prayer 1 of being in the game when it counts.

Bork

Yes this is a std MP race and may be fine for SP. But are not going to exterminate anyone in 100 turns in a huge map. You may not even met anyone before t110. It is quite easy to goto 150 turns before first contact.

originalbork · November 16, 2002, 12:10

What works in MP is like a hot knife through butter in SP.
That race will have 2-3 colony ships down by turn 50 plus their entire home system will be based immediately.

If you have 4 systems I guarantee you have made contact.

I haven't played in 3 years but I promise if I found my CD I could beat the computer in less than 200 first game.

Until you play on Kali for a month you have no frame of reference as to how good the players are.

I was always one of the top 3 players on Kali or Ten. I'm sure they have added some wrinkles since I was there.

vmxa1 · November 16, 2002, 15:01

What I am sure of is that they are lots of good players on Kali and not on Kali. I am also quite sure that there is nothing new and the game is not complex. Now you are up to 200 turns, what happen to the 110?

xoham · November 16, 2002, 15:04

Allow this "rookie" to qualify my statement about Creative. I only play single player games. Those seem to take too much time as it is. I suspect multiplayer might take even longer. Thus my comment about Creative was for use in a Single player game only. I imagine that strategy is very different in MP since you really can't negotiate real peace with anyone.... and so on.

I will edit my earlier post to indicate "for single player".

vmxa1 · November 16, 2002, 15:04

Oh, and several players from Kali have stopped by to make the T110 claim and were not able to produce, but maybe you can. What new wrinkles could exist in a game this old (not cheating that is).

vmxa1 · November 16, 2002, 23:51

Quote:

Originally posted by originalbork
What works in MP is like a hot knife through butter in SP.
That race will have 2-3 colony ships down by turn 50 plus their entire home system will be based immediately.

If you have 4 systems I guarantee you have made contact.

I haven't played in 3 years but I promise if I found my CD I could beat the computer in less than 200 first game.

Until you play on Kali for a month you have no frame of reference as to how good the players are.

I was always one of the top 3 players on Kali or Ten. I'm sure they have added some wrinkles since I was there.

This just crap. You will not have 3 colony ships in a prewarp game by t50, you will not have one.
Using the race you posted I am sitting at turn 40 and switched production to a colony ship. The pop is 3 farmers, 7 industrial and 1 scientist. even with a small prebuild the CS is 8 days off. I have AF and RL in place.
I have no doubt contact would be made by 4 systems, but that is way past T150 for me. If I have 4 systems I consider the game in the bag. The AI wil have 10 systems +/- depending on the races. I just echo your own words, after a month we would all be palying more or less the same. The tactic for mP are not required for SP, that does not make MP players better, only used to different tactic, not mysterious. Again I ake you at face value, if you are the best, great. None the less, the game is not unknown to me and others here.

vmxa1 · November 17, 2002, 00:01

Oh here is the save at t40 so you can point out any reason why I am short two colony ships. This is 131 any other version is not worth looking at. No cheats, no editors.
T0 - R- EC
T4 -R- labs
T11 -R-Hulls building labs
T18 srt colony base
T21 R - AF Hire Crassis
T29 colonize
T31 R- colony tech, start AF and buy it
T34 srt freighters
T35 Mentar III srt AF, Mentar IV srt CB
0/1/0 3/1/7 Reserve 157 Income +6 Pop 12 RP 38
T38 R- std cell
T40 R- laser switch to colony ship reset all pop
8 days to build 3/7/1

vmxa1 · November 17, 2002, 00:02

Here is the start game to verify or try another means.

originalbork · November 17, 2002, 03:02

You still don't get it. You aren't starting the game properly.

Do you know what a pop farm is?

Your openning turns are wrong. First, you don't do R-Labs right off the bat. It is colony base first and you only have enough research to get colony base tech 1 turn before you build a spy. Then you change production to colony base. build out your system with colony bases other than 1 pop planets, full production no reasearch. All planets other than your home remain at 1 pop farming until you convert them to production for AF & RL, you must make sure you have at least 1/2 production so the buy is cheap.

vmxa1 · November 17, 2002, 15:39

Quote:

Originally posted by originalbork
You still don't get it. You aren't starting the game properly.

Do you know what a pop farm is?

Your openning turns are wrong. First, you don't do R-Labs right off the bat. It is colony base first and you only have enough research to get colony base tech 1 turn before you build a spy. Then you change production to colony base. build out your system with colony bases other than 1 pop planets, full production no reasearch. All planets other than your home remain at 1 pop farming until you convert them to production for AF & RL, you must make sure you have at least 1/2 production so the buy is cheap.

The point of the run was not to play my normal mode, which is to CB my system, but to see if I could get 3 colony ships by turn 45-50 as you stated. You seem to like to attribute things to me that are not matching what I do. Without the labs it will be hard to get the AF, which is needed to boost production.

originalbork · November 18, 2002, 02:05

You don't actually need anything to produce colony ships when you are at 10.5 per worker minus pollution on your home world. AF is a nice add on but may not be necessary. If I have 10 pop working that would be about 60-70 production after pollution and it would make a CS a 8-9 turn venture.

The best I can remember I think I have A-F between turns 32-39 with an average beginning position (1 planet to pop farm).

vmxa1 · November 18, 2002, 03:45

I have not check the number and will accept yours, but 10 workers will come way after turn 40. At turn 40 it will be 3 farmers, 8 workers or 3/7/1 if you want some research. Off the top of my head I am not sure how many farmers would be needed it could be 3/10 or 4/10, so maybe by turn 48 or so to get that many workers. So 3 ships by turn 70 is about right. Although, I would image that you would not really want to go that route as you would be working on colony bases first. AF would be right in that range, I had it up on turn 32 with a less than optimal run.

bakalov · November 18, 2002, 04:10

originalbork,

What would you do if your starting system is a real junk? It may happen that you even don't have other planets in your system? ...

I see that your race is repulsive too ..... This means that you dont have any other choice than conquest. And in large maps in MP you may be unpleasantly surprised when another player makes an alliance with your neighbour and has access to your space while you can't access his .... If one plays creative race he can make alliances with others really fast by giving them tech. On a small map one can research Force Fields I in no time and send you a cruiser that can even kill your starbase... And this may happen even while you are building colony ships. And you can be in war with everyone you have contact with before you can think of it .... I think that espionage and diplomacy are things that can not be underestimated in MP. I have only a limited circle of ppl to play MP with but

I have played against different strats, even the klackon one that you describe. Most of the time I am successful as you are :-). I am not playing always the same race in MP. I don't find it funny ....

I think that always can be designed a race dedicated to be able to beat a specific one .....
In MP the surprise is the best ally. What would you do if a bulrathy-like player (with huge ground fight bonus) attacks your star bases with four scouts and captures and destroys them? and then blokades your system? Or even worse - he can have stealthy ships and be telepathic with a cruiser ...... I have played races that can sometimes win by conquest around turn 70. As you said it is important to understand the breakpoints in the game. But could they depend on the race?

You can not be always ready for everything .... The game wouldn't be interesting if there was a best strat.

originalbork · November 18, 2002, 11:20

You always accompany a CS with an empty scout. If you hit a monster the scout may or may not get roasted but your CS stays in tact.

a little tidbit. It only takes 4 mirv nuke frigs to beat an amoeba. No more than 6 for a crystal and 7-9 for a hydra or dragon. I never build frigs in SP so this occurs late for me.

Next any MP game that allows tech trading I will go non-repulsive, using low-g instead.

Once we are at the point of meeting I have scouts ships out at max range to any lane to my empire. The surprise strategies you mentioned can work, although not the bulrathi, you won't have enough ships to get to my SB, remember I outproduce you by a long shot. In a 1 on 1. They can work depending on WH. Whatever prod race I choose I always stretch out my eyes to see the opponent coming. You will usually need to op once or more to get to my home. I pick those off and you take a slow journey home. The best surprise strat I have seen is still a near prod race (arty, +1 pro) from an average game will build the op's a laser bb, transport and a couple frigs and come around turn 50 from an average start. Other than that the rest is easy to take down.

For someone to make a good early game attack they need to bring more than a cruiser, you need op's and transport. If I have my eyes out I have more than a few turns notice before you get to me. I will take out your OP as you pass so you need to take a planet not blockade or you get sent back. My cruiser (I just switch production) and support ships will be good enough about 75% of the time to hold people off. I have been jumped and jumped successfully but usually only in 1 on 1.

If you play creative in a 4 or more player game. Noone should want to ally with you, if they do they let are signing their own death warrant unless everyone stays in the game until max tech is reached (boring), then creative was wasted. I usually attack creative on sight. I have been beaten by them, very rarely and only when the start is lopsided. MP on Kali & Ten, usually played any game with more than 2 players with a rule you had to at least have a small in your home or the game was too lopsided. There were adv games with far more varied races. Everyone was creative but the mods were much different. At that time demo & dic seemed to get favored, because their deficiencies in prewarp were wiped out.

VXMA I have tried to walk you through the start of a game. If you don't follow the basics of the start I am giving you, you won't make a production race work to it's capabilities. Why do you believe you need AF to make a colony ship with that race or Uni-Tol? If someone jumps you, you take heavy armor and you are set for 75 turns on defence. Plus those races outproduce most anything else with AF.

bakalov · November 18, 2002, 11:46

ok, I'll agree with the most of your words but I still think that there is no best race that cannot be beaten ..... any or other way :-)

vmxa1 · November 18, 2002, 13:58

Quote:

Originally posted by originalbork

VXMA I have tried to walk you through the start of a game. If you don't follow the basics of the start I am giving you, you won't make a production race work to it's capabilities. Why do you believe you need AF to make a colony ship with that race or Uni-Tol? If someone jumps you, you take heavy armor and you are set for 75 turns on defence. Plus those races outproduce most anything else with AF.

I still do not see where you get the idea that I do this or that? I know I have posted a response that I have used the very strategies you mention, long before I ever heard of you or Kali. The run I tested the colony ships with is NOT a normal run for me if I use a Uni race, it was just a test, not meant to be anything but a a quick look see, not meant to be an optimal style. You do not have any idea of how I play, I do not play the same race every game and will often experiment. Near as I can tell there is not much difference in what you have said and what I have done or said. About the only thing I see different is you percieve MP as the end all be all and others as lessor beings, not worthy of any respect. I see MP players as different not better, not unfathomable. People with the ability to reason and understand can master either or both. Note master does not mean being the best, only that they comprehend. The strat that you posted is as old as the game of Moo2 and I have used at least as far back as 1997.

originalbork · November 19, 2002, 01:26

Last try at logical thinking, then I give up on helping you.

There are 100's of players that will beat the computer on impossible 99% of the time (I once had a start where I couldn't reach a 2nd non monster planet with duets and ext fuel). Take 8 players and play 100 SP games. Each will win 99. Now those same players play each other 100 times. There are 100 total wins instead of 792. Did they get worse?

What other than starting position will determine the difference in games won amongst those 8? The answer is the amount of skill between those that can beat an impossible computer and those that can beat a human who beats an impossible computer.

What challenge exists in SP that does not in MP, other than playing for end score, (not a skill)?

bakalov · November 19, 2002, 02:57

I personally dont like the part in MP which says "You MUST play this way or you WILL lose!". Then everyone starts to play the same manner and if the skill is (almost) equal then the starting position indeed determines the outcome of the game ....