design versus coding

[Solver]

If anyone is to release any evaluation, it should be the project's leader. Not any fan of the project and not anyone else working on it.

[TCO]

A simple "unwilling" suffices.

So anyhow, stop with the blather about how closely you've followed it, since you are unwilling to engage in discussion based off of that. It's like talking about having a diamond in your pocket, but being unwilling to show it to anyone.

[Nikolai]

Originally posted by TCO
Nikolai, they are bullshitters.

I don't know either Solver nor Vel very well, but from what I know, both are far from that. I very much respect Vel from his contributions to Civ in the past, and likewise Solver have given me no reason to not respect him from what he's done, public as not public.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Nikolai


I don't know either Solver nor Vel very well, but from what I know, both are far from that. I very much respect Vel from his contributions to Civ in the past, and likewise Solver have given me no reason to not respect him from what he's done, public as not public.

The proof is in the pudding. You can blather about what great guys they are and I'll just get more "show me, show me".

[Solver]

Sure enough. You might even have been right if Vel had given a deadline for the game to be shown. But he hasn't. You can say "show me" - he can say "will do when it's ready to be shown".

Anyway, there are only two ways this can end.

1. Something is released to the public.
2. The project gets abandoned with no one working on it.

It's either the former or the latter. We'll see.

BTW, I have always been amazed, in a good way, at the project's great ability to survive. From experience, most projects die rather quickly - say, within a year of initial conception. By most estimates, if Candle'Bre had been going the way most projects do, it should've been dead by the second half of 2004 at the latest. It's not, though.

Someday I'll even explain why not

[TCO]

It's a joke. And prattling about him not giving a deadline is silliness. Regardless of an estimate (which he was too much of an evasive ***** to give when challenged for one), the objective fact is 5 years with minimal progress. And a bunch of bullshit about sales of real estate funding the thing. Cripes.

I got a mouse in my pocket. Want to buy it? It's worth a million dollars. Give me the money and then I'll show it to you.

[TCO]

It's dead, Solver. You're just walking around a corpse.

[Solver]

Sorry, your attempts are pathetic. Not only you don't know what the actual progress is, you're also acting as if you're entitled to having a product here and now - or at least a detailed report.

That's okay, too. The only thing that I really don't like is how you want the project to fail just so you can brag about being right.

[TCO]

I know that you guys don't have balls to give a report or make a deadline. You are evasive little schoolgirls.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Solver
Sorry, your attempts are pathetic. Not only you don't know what the actual progress is, you're also acting as if you're entitled to having a product here and now - or at least a detailed report.

That's okay, too. The only thing that I really don't like is how you want the project to fail just so you can brag about being right.

I want it to fail because of all the bullshit about new business model. the stupid need to feel pain so that they learn. thus is the world bettered.

[Solver]

Now now, resorting to insults? I guess I'm done with this conversation - I've made my point

[TCO]

what that you"re evasive?

Here's you:
*I've followed this closely
*you don't know what the status is
*we refuse to disclose the status

That's macaca. When I see that, I'll take it and ram it up your ass sideways.

[Solver]

"stupid" and "bullshitters" count as insults ya know.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Solver
"stupid" and "bullshitters" count as insults ya know.

And in other news, 2+2=4.

[Velociryx]

Ahhh, and what a refreshing afternoon it was.

Based on the posts here, I see that TCO didn't bother with the fresh air, but that too, is to be expected.

TCO, for the record:

* The project will be deemed a failure if, at some point (as Solver has already mentioned), there's no one working on it.

As this is currently not the case, your conclusion is obviously incorrect.

* The particulars of how we're organized are of concern to those who are currently involved in the project. As you are not currently involved in the project, we "owe you" exactly zero in terms of disclosure.

If you don't like that....it's fine. If you don't agree with that...it's also fine. This isn't a democracy, and our answers to those types of questions are the same now as they were the last three dozen times you've asked.

* We set no timetables because we are still, by and large, a volunteer group. The funny thing about volunteers is that they have these things called "lives"....and those tend to get busy more often than not, which means that our project sees periods of rampant creativity, discussion, and development, followed by periods of not much going on. Perfect? Hardly, but it's where we are....just like every other, largely volunteer driven project. No big secret there.

I am very sorry that you feel slighted in some way by the fact that we've not produced a product yet for you to evaluate. Perhaps when we do, you'll give it a go. If not...well, you certainly aren't risking anything, as we're not planning to charge for it, so I'm not sure where the anger and venom stem from. In fact, I'm outright amazed. I've never seen or heard of a free-when-complete product be the focus of such ire. It's really quite remarkable when you think about it.

As always, Candle'Bre will be finished when it's finished, and not a day sooner. The remarkable thing is, after all this time, you're still checking in here. I wonder...why is that? Oh, I'm sure you'll have some snide comment, but I'm also willing to bet that there's this part of you that, almost despite yourself, really hopes we pull it off.

It will mean eating some crow, sure, but in the end...wow...wouldn't that just be something?

And the truth is that the only way this project ends prematurely is if I die.

That IS a possibility, as my heart condition has set the clock ticking, for sure, but I'm not going to dwell on that. I'm going to continue doing what I have been doing, which is slowly....ever so slowly inching this project toward completion.

What will you be doing?

-=Vel=-

PS: Point of interest: Stephen King's "The Stand" (Signet Edition), ranks 2,053,018 on Amazon. Looks like I"m in good company!

[TCO]

I don't feel slighted. But I will draw my own conclusions. Oh...and save me the crap about how I don't know the inside crap, when you are too evasive to share it. What a cop out.

Vel...you can do better than this. But you need a stern talking to first.

[TCO]

Oh...and on the stand. What are your sales numbers. You know them. what are they. Bet you are too gutless to share them.

[TCO]

Oh...and here's all the editions of the Stand: http://amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/104...ords=the+stand

You are being an incredible sophist by citing one old edition. but of course, you tend to live in dream rather than reality.

[hexagonian]

I restate what I said earlier...

Who give a rat's @ss what loserboy TCO thinks about our progress. He who has no involvement whatsoever in the project.

He continually comes in here in a stupid attempt to bring some sort of validation to his meaningless existance - a sad cry for attention to his lonely, bitter, and ultimately pathetic life.

Oh, oh...please notice me and my opinions CB team. Because no-one else ever does.

Happy to be of service to bring a little validation to your life.

It gets done when it gets done.

[hexagonian]

And to add this perspective.

Until recently, I was working a full-time job and two part-time jobs. My priorities are my family life, putting food on my table, paying my son's college bills...and then gaming/modwork.

Modwork is a hobby for me, as it is for all of us.

If it works out for us and makes a little cash, great. If it does not, life goes on, but I had the opportunity to meet some great people online through working together towards something.

I will repeat this in every post too...let's bold it this time...
================================
Who give a rat's @ss what loserboy TCO thinks about our progress.

He continually comes in here in a stupid attempt to bring some sort of validation to his meaningless existance - a sad cry for attention to his lonely, bitter, and ultimately pathetic life.

Oh, oh...please notice me and my opinions CB team. Because no-one else ever does.
================================

You can crawl back under your rock now.

[TCO]

Vel: I'm done harshing on you. I think it's for your own good. But I don't want to hurt you...unless it helps you.

Hex: relax. If this is your hobby, fine.

[LordShiva]

I hear TCO is a former business consultant.

to teh CB team for getting him to give you advice for free.

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by TCO
Vel: I'm done harshing on you. I think it's for your own good..

Good... don't let the door hit you in the @ss either.
Wait, let it hit you...

Originally posted by TCO
But I don't want to hurt you...unless it helps you.

Bullcr@p...

Originally posted by TCO
Hex: relax. If this is your hobby, fine.

It's a hobby for all of us, so shut the #@%! up. Or don't offer your so-called moronic and petty 'insight' in a sneering, condescending manner.

I will repeat this in every post...and let's bold/ital it this time...
================================
Who give a rat's @ss what loserboy TCO thinks about our progress.

He continually comes in here in a stupid attempt to bring some sort of validation to his meaningless existance - a sad cry for attention to his lonely, bitter, and ultimately pathetic life.

Oh, oh...please notice me and my opinions CB team. Because no-one else ever does.
================================

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by LordShiva
I hear TCO is a former business consultant.

to teh CB team for getting him to give you advice for free.

I wonder how many businesses he drove into the ground...

EDIT: I have to add this again...

I will repeat this in every post...and let's ital it this time...
================================
Who give a rat's @ss what loserboy TCO thinks about our progress.

He continually comes in here in a stupid attempt to bring some sort of validation to his meaningless existance - a sad cry for attention to his lonely, bitter, and ultimately pathetic life.

Oh, oh...please notice me and my opinions CB team. Because no-one else ever does.
================================

[Leland]

Can't... resist... urge to respond... to message board drama...

I've been reading up on the progress every now and then, and at no point did I get an impression that this particular project is even trying to be a "business". It seems a lot more like a hobbyist endeavour. TCO is absolutely right that the business model is crap, but is that really the main concern (for anyone except the paid coder that is)? He is also right that there has been very little visible progress but then again it's not like the rest of us are shareholders in Vel's company or anything. Nope, we're just bystanders looking forward to playing a fun game, preferably sometime before the sun burns out.

What somewhat bothers me is the secrecy surrounding the game itself. As a lazy spectator, I'd be interested to read the core mechanics for example rather than get a screenie every six months or so.

[Velociryx]

Hey Leland!

And I think I can oblige you on that front.

I'm in the process of tweaking the way that the provincial improvements appear on the map (which is a big, tiresome project all on its own, and not terribly interesting to discuss), but after that, I'll be getting back to tackling the particulars of the social dynamic framework I'm adding to the prototype, and will certainly open up a thread to kick the particulars around...

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Question for TCO:

Now that the trilogy has been completed, I was wondering if you would be interested in joining the reading group?

You have been one of this project's biggest detractors and doomsayers from its inception, and this would a) give you an inside peek at what's going on, b) give you a firsthand taste at the quality of what's being produced, so you can judge for yourself, and c) your skepticism would likely yield some good insights.

$0.02

-=Vel=-

[TCO]

Hell no. Most stuff that get's published is not good enough for me. And you weren't even good enough to get published. Go play forts or treehouses or something.

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by TCO
Hell no. Most stuff that get's published is not good enough for me. And you weren't even good enough to get published. Go play forts or treehouses or something.

And thus the pathetic blowhard isn't even willing to back up his criticism with some objective judgement of the product. After all, he cannot fairly judge the story without reading it first.

My guess is that he cannot read - somebody probably has been reading all these posts to him...

But that would also imply that somebody cares enough about him to do so. Probably a false assumption on my part though.

Crawl back under your rock...

Carry on Vel!

[hexagonian]

And let's deconstruct this to it's essence...

TCO is critical of the (game development) model, saying it has and never will bear anything worthwhile.

Vel counters with the idea that the model encompasses not only gaming, but also was to be the jumping off point for other things like story creation.

Books I-III of the trilogy, as well as the prequel are finished, except for the final editing. So right there, the project has borne tangible fruit. Maybe not as originally envisioned, but the team has adapted to the situation. After all, that is what a good business does...it adapts.

And by no means has the gaming aspect been tabled as a dead issue.

TCO counters that since the books are not officially published, they are crap. So he uses the act of publishing as the standard to judge...Let the marketplace moguls decide what he personally will and will not like.

But wait, he make the addition that much of the stuff that is published is crap too. Here's the rub though - he ultimately gives more weight to their opinions. He qualifies his liking on first and foremost, whether it has been published.

Thus, letting others decide the value for him, rather than judge the end product on it's own merit with an honest opinion, based on firsthand experience of reading the story himself.

What a lemming...