usage of raw numbers

Atahualpa · May 1, 2001, 13:01

in this screenshot: http://www.apolyton.net/civ3/images/...lay-cities.jpg

are lots of raw numbers. numbers for food, production, science,... .
Somehow I dont like that.

I dont really mind at all how many food a city produces. I just mind if the city is doing average, good or below-average depending on the size of the city. Thats all I need to know.

So I can see very quickly were to spend improvements and which cities to protect most.

The rest is nice: unit icons instead of their names and so on.

I think that was what ctp lacked of. They had just too many numbers and text.

For example, do you want to read: Sir, we have discovered blabla. or do you want to see a nice big picture of an icon of the advance and blabla somewhere on top (like in civ1).
I like the civ1 approach much more. I need less power to decrypt the message and its a pleasure to the eyes too, seeing beautiful screens.
With decrypting the text its less fun, and you got no eye-candy.

ATa

Roman · May 1, 2001, 13:03

Yes, numbers, please!! Numbers are good. They enable you to see what's happening more precisely. I think we should keep the numbers.

Atahualpa · May 1, 2001, 17:21

somehow I have the feeling I have been misunderstood!

why do you cry for numbers?
pfff I can really in no way understand that.
What use is there to see precisely how many food you have?
I mean you cant really do anything with the value.
Or just say: You have Civ3 and your city produces 15 food.

Isnt that great? or wait? 15 food. hmm how large is that city? err is 15 food for a city of that size much or little? err wait, from my experience I know, *computing computing* hmm yeah I think that should do well. Oh my god what is that so many numbers on one screen. The whole screen is filled with boring numbers. So boring it really hurts to look at. Quick look away. AAAAAAAAAA

pfff what use is there in the display of all the numbers?

Please Sid, cut out all those freakin numbers. Just tell me, if a Bank would make any profit if I would build it, or tell me if that certain city doesnt grow as fast as it should be. I really dont want to figure that out on my own comparing numbers

comparing numbers

yeah fine if you like that, go and play with your calculator. pffff

Ata

Atahualpa · May 1, 2001, 17:27

btw, keep?????
IIRC Civ2 had not that much numbers. And that was exactly why it was so good. Cause everything was iconfied.

I mean you could display the city and then display a text that says: 2 happy, 3 content and 1 unhappy

and that for all cities. Or rather display the heads. Now what is easier to read and much more fun?
Obviously the second.

We dont dream text, we dream pictures. And Civ3 should be a dream (game)

ATa

Roman · May 1, 2001, 17:28

I see what you meen, but numbers allow for a more precise management of your empire and allow you to judge opportunity costs, so I still support using them. Perhaps it would help you if they were numbers you could relate to? Eg. Instead of 15 food, it would be 15 thousand tons of grain.
If that is so, I am sure that just as in Civ 2, that will also be editable.

Atahualpa · May 2, 2001, 15:51

You still havent understood me.

15 food or 15 tons of food or 15 tons of grain or 15 tons of whatever is all the same actually.

Look: They can display a number of how many food you have for exmple 15, or they can display something better, perhaps a colored circle that is green if the city is growing fast, orange if medium and red if slow.
And for Heavens sake they can put the number in the circle as well, for more precise managing.

Ata

Ralf · May 2, 2001, 16:34

quote:

Originally posted by Atahualpa on 05-02-2001 03:51 PM
Look: They can display a number of how many food you have for exmple 15, or they can display something better, perhaps a colored circle that is green if the city is growing fast, orange if medium and red if slow.
And for Heavens sake they can put the number in the circle as well, for more precise managing.

I really must agree with Atahualpa on this one. Numbers are OK, but only numbers? No thanks! Graphics are often much more intuitive - especially then displaying fraction-values relative to each other. Heres a simple example:

Lets compare with the horisontal coins-bar in Civ-2/city-screen. With a blink-of-an-eye you could immediately estimate how much was greyed out; thus wasted by corruption. You didnt have to "think" and "calculate" - you just saw it instantly.

Now, compare with the figures in the INCOME/EXPENSES section in the Domestic advisor screenshot.

Notice that you eyes moves erratically back-and-forth, while you is bizzy translating the left-brain abstract number-info, into a right-brain spatial "making-sence-images"?

Why not ADD two horisonal graphic INCOME/EXPENSES bars, with colour-coded shifting partitions relative to the fixed lenght of the bars? Below those bars the existing (but now indevidually colour-coded) INCOME/EXPENSES "explanation: numbers" data can appear - more or less exactly as they do in that screenshot. It doesnt have to be one way or the other - it can be both!

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited May 02, 2001).]

meriadoc · May 2, 2001, 16:59

After having played Civ2, CTP, and CTP2, I can say this: the iconified representation of things such as food, production, and trade (to name a few) was much more pleasant to look at than just plain raw numbers. But there were numerous times also where having a numeric representation was useful. This was especially useful in the tables of information that CTP and CTP2 provided. In my opinion, therefore, a little of both would be perfect; pictures for in-close looks at a city, numbers for empire-wide looks.

Ralf · May 2, 2001, 17:05

quote:

Originally posted by meriadoc on 05-02-2001 04:59 PM
In my opinion, therefore, a little of both would be perfect...

Exactly my opinion also. Both right-brain graphics and left-brain numbers representation, as much as reasonably possible. Important issue - keep on bumping this one, if you agree, or have other ideas.

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited May 02, 2001).]

Buck Birdseed · May 2, 2001, 17:16

Ata: Civ has a tradition of on-the-surface mathematics, so that if you pay enough attention you can calculate how any single change will affect your civ using pen and paper, if you like. Compare this to, say, SimCity, where there are much more complex models buried deep within the code, so most of the game is spent trying to figure them out.

Ralf · May 2, 2001, 17:26

quote:

Originally posted by Snapcase on 05-02-2001 05:16 PM
Ata: Civ has a tradition of on-the-surface mathematics,

It has?

Most - if not all city-data in Civ-2/SMAC is graphically displayed. Besides, does it HAVE to be one way or the other?

quote:

so that if you pay enough attention you can calculate how any single change will affect your civ using pen and paper, if you like.

Pen and paper? Are you serious? Not each and every turn, I assume?

Buck Birdseed · May 2, 2001, 17:52

quote:

Originally posted by Ralf on 05-02-2001 05:26 PM

It has?

Most - if not all city-data in Civ-2/SMAC is graphically displayed. Besides, does it HAVE to be one way or the other?

Graphical but countable.

quote:

Pen and paper? Are you serious? Not each and every turn, I assume?

"Can" means "In principle possible, I suppose" here.

airdrik · May 2, 2001, 17:59

How about, instead of in the advisor screens having it say city X produces y food, and you have to figure out if it is growing or not, have it say city X has a y surplus of food (after settler consumption). I also like the idea of colored numbers, that way you can see that a red -1 means that that city has a food deficit that needs corrected, or a white 0 means that their growth has halted, or a green 3 means that they are growing fairly rapidly.

Also, make them bold, because then you can see the difference in colors easier.

jdlessl · May 4, 2001, 08:20

Might I direct yor attention to Colonization, where maximizing a colony's production required knowing the raw numbers. I could look at the terrain types around the colony, calculate the maximum amount of food that could be produced, and populate it accordingly. There was also a graphical representation, which was nice, but having to count up the number of wheat and fish icons would get old in a major hurry.

--
Jared Lessl

Russian King · May 4, 2001, 08:26

quote:

Originally posted by Roman on 05-01-2001 01:03 PM
Yes, numbers, please!! Numbers are good. They enable you to see what's happening more precisely. I think we should keep the numbers.

I wont do very well with no numbers: give us numbers AND icons

Cyberbugs · May 4, 2001, 11:33

I want nice graphics as well as I want detailed information about, for example, how much food my cities are producing - in NUMBERS.

airdrik · May 4, 2001, 11:50

You can have your numbers, just let them be colored so that those of us who don't really care about the exact numbers, but the relative amounts can just look and compair. So if a city is producing abundant surplus food than it would have a green number for it's food, yellow for 0-1 suprlus, and red for deficit.

Cyclotron · May 4, 2001, 11:54

Looking at the screenshot you provided, space seems to be the problem. I too would like to see both graphical representation and actual numbers, but it doesn't look like their layout (which looks like the screen from CTP) will allow icons.

It is true, however, that the city screen screenshot uses icons for food, etc.... so I don't see what the problem is, we have both already!

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- Cyclotron7, "that supplementary resource fanatic"

N35t0r · May 4, 2001, 15:17

I rather have numbers than only images...

i would appreciate colored backgrounds like in civ2 (like the support, waste and production shields in the bar)

Combinations are usually the best thing to show stuff..

Gramphos · May 4, 2001, 15:26

I would also like a combination of graphics and numbers. The graphics to give me an overview and the numbers to micromanage.

Ralf · May 4, 2001, 16:04

quote:

Originally posted by cyclotron7 on 05-04-2001 11:54 AM
Looking at the screenshot you provided, space seems to be the problem. I too would like to see both graphical representation and actual numbers, but it doesn't look like their layout (which looks like the screen from CTP) will allow icons.

Well, obviously they HAVE to redesign that game-screen (and others) of course.

I have read somewhere that they are only about 50% complete with the overall game.

quote:

It is true, however, that the city screen screenshot uses icons for food, etc.... so I don't see what the problem is, we have both already!

Have I missed something here?

Do you refer to that "Domestic advisor" screen? If NOT, please give me a direct link to that other screenshot instead.

Ralf · May 4, 2001, 16:46

quote:

Originally posted by Ralf on 05-04-2001 04:04 PM
Have I missed something here?

I have found it: http://www.pczone.co.uk/guest/newrev....php3?id=33692

What can I say? Nice!

But where are the tile-output & allocation info?
[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited May 04, 2001).]

Cyclotron · May 4, 2001, 17:44

Ralf, I'm glad you found it. I don't see the big debate here, since it appears that both icons and numbers are used.

I couldn't tell you where the tile allocation icons are, but I have three hypothesises:

1) They are somehow on a seperate subscreen you can reach through a button, a la CTP.
2) They exist, but have been removed in this picture to show us eager gamers a bit of Civ3 terrain.
3) They do not exist... but I don't see how this could work.

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- Cyclotron7, "that supplementary resource fanatic"

Atahualpa · May 6, 2001, 06:06

Thanks for the support so far.

I dont spend that much time here, I was just curious how my last thread did? Glad I found it on page 2 (topmost).

About maximizing output of a city:
You know what, I liked CtP's maximize buttons very much! I used them frequently, under normal circumstances I optimized for food. When I needed production I just clicked on production and it would find me the best setting to maximize my production. Great thing that is!
The only drawback was, that you had to click on every single city to maximize it own its own. Some more batch operation would have been useful.
Also I couldnt see to what the city was maximized in the city screen. Another major drawback.

Ata