Axis of evil expands!

[Arrian]

Marcus has a point, Ned. Double standards.

I have a major problem with our government running around demanding that various countries stop trying to build The Bomb when we have enough nuclear weapons to make the planet glow.

I think trying to stop the spread of nuclear weapons is a good idea, but if we're going to do it, we need to start at home. I think a drastic, unilateral reduction (or multilateral elimination) of our nuclear arsenal might go a long way. Instead, our government spouts rhetoric that implies we have the moral highground while we remain the only nation on earth to have actually used a nuclear weapon.

Look, I don't want terrorists to get their hands on nukes any more than you do. But other countries? Specifically weaker countries we don't like? Take North Korea for example. I have no fondness for the NK government - I think they are despicable. However, they aren't going to nuke the US or Japan. No way. Because of MAD. There was a great line in a movie called "The Peacemaker" an otherwise uninspiring movie: "I'm not afraid of the man who wants 10 nuclear weapons. I'm scared to death of the man who only wants 1." If you want to prevent terrorists from getting nukes, I think you have to try to get rid of all nukes. And like I said, we've got hundreds of 'em lying about the place.

-Arrian

[chequita guevara]

The best way to keep terrorists from getting their hands on nuclear weapons is not to have any existing in the world. Get rid of them, stop making the weapons grade material, get rid of nuclear power altogether. If you can't make the stuff to make the bomb, you can't make the bomb.

[Arrian]

Che, I agree. How rare.

-Arrian

[DinoDoc]

These comments are only in reference to North Korea:

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
2. "because they are developping WoMDs."

Since the early 1990s, when its economy collapsed, the North Korea has pursued trade with such states as Angola, Burma, Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, Pakistan, and Syria as a means of earning hard currency. Most of this trade involves arms, chemical and biological weapons materials, and even ballistic missile technology. Libya, for example, recently bought 50 Rodong-1 missiles from North Korea with a range of 1,000 kilometers.

"because they train terrorists". If that's the criteria, many other nations should be added to the Axis of Evil, and Cuba and North Korea should be taken of it.

They have also sold the weapons to the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam and the United Wa State Army. North Koreans have also been seen at terrorist training camps in Afghanistan. They also continue to harbor terrorists from the Japanese Red Army.

[rah]

Geeze, get over it.
IT"S A PR SCAM.
Fodder for unsuspecting masses. (and believe it or not, most of us aren't that stupid to fall for it)
IT's not a double standard, it's Bush waving The US's collective Chaney. It's been happening the whole century, why should it be any different now.

When we start lobbing missiles, then we can talk.

[DinoDoc]

rah: I'm just explaining how one of the Sinister Six earned its membership.

[Saint Marcus]

They have also sold the weapons to the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam and the United Wa State Army.

And the US gave weapons to the Mujahedeen and the UCK. point being?

I believe we have had a very long prohibition on WoMD in Cuba, dating from Kennedy. We virtually have no defense against short range missiles launched from Cuba.

We put NK in the same category because they seem to like shooting missiles at Japan. We have insisted that Japan not develop nuclear weapons of its own. So we protect them.

I know that as well as any other person. Though does that make them "evil"?


Rah: I know it's a PR stunt, but I don't understand why. Like you said: "and believe it or not, most of us aren't that stupid to fall for it." So what is the point of this?

[Ned]

Guys, In the matter of Cuba, location is everything for the U.S. If you put the matter to a vote in the U.S. on whether we should permit Cuba to develop and deploy nuclear weapons against which we can develop no defense, I am sure the Amercian people would overwhelmingly vote for no nukes in Cuba.

Ask the same question to the people of Holland, and the answer will be entirely different.

I remember the crisis in 1962. The people of American overwhelming supported what Kennedy did then. Castro got a bye only because he agreed not to develop or deploy nuclear weapons.

Even with the lapse of 40 years, nothing really has changed. If Castro attempts to deploy nuclear weapons, we probably will act.

Ned

[Chris 62]

Bet you will have forgotten all this when bombs fall on Havana and Pyonyang, and Bush will do that at some point, he's wacky enough.

The MTV generation sure has short attention spans.

[Ned]

On the matter of NK, I believe the situation is extremely complicated. I think we would seek the support of China to pre-empt the NK's. Otherwise, our intervention may cause another war between the U.S. and China.

Russia would also have to be consulted.

Given that both China and Russia are on board on the war against terror, I think the Chinese will "pursuade" the NK's not to develop WoMD. Russia will say the same thing.

I think the combined pressure from the U.S., China and Russia will be enough.

Ned

[Saint Marcus]

Ned: You still haven't answered why Cuba and North Korea are "evil". You are only explaining why the US doesn't like them, but that doesn't make them "evil".

[Saint Marcus]

Bet you will have forgotten all this when bombs fall on Havana and Pyonyang, and Bush will do that at some point, he's wacky enough.

Do you really think Bush will start an invasion of North Korea and Cuba??

[Chris 62]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
Do you really think Bush will start an invasion of North Korea and Cuba??

Invasion?

No.

Bombing?

Yes.

[Saint Marcus]

Damn...that would suck

[Arrian]

Guys, In the matter of Cuba, location is everything for the U.S. If you put the matter to a vote in the U.S. on whether we should permit Cuba to develop and deploy nuclear weapons against which we can develop no defense, I am sure the Amercian people would overwhelmingly vote for no nukes in Cuba.

Umm... the thing about sovereignty is that the US people don't get to vote on whether or not Cuba should have nukes. The fact that Cubans can't vote about it either... well, the world isn't perfect.

-Arrian

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Chris 62
Bet you will have forgotten all this when bombs fall on Havana and Pyonyang, and Bush will do that at some point, he's wacky enough.

The MTV generation sure has short attention spans.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
Ned: You still haven't answered why Cuba and North Korea are "evil". You are only explaining why the US doesn't like them, but that doesn't make them "evil".

Saint Marcus, I have never been comfortable with Bush's choice of words since 9/11. "Evil" puts the whole question of "them" against "us" into a religious context. The mere fact that they, al Qaida, have declared war on us should be sufficient.

Adding states such as Iraq and Iran to the equation further amplifies a the first mistake because nations are not "evil." They may be enemies, but "evil" is simply not the right term. Ditto adding Cuba and NK to the "axis."

Another thing I didn't like was Bush labelling the 9/11 hijackers as "cowards." This really is not an apt desciption. Kamakazi is far more apt, but the choice of that term may have offended our current ally Japan. Clearly, the 9/11 bombers are the same, exactly the same, as the suicide bombers in Israel. They are religious fanatics who truly believe that what they do will grant them a place in paradise. This is exactly what the Pope told the Crusaders and the Japanese told the Kamikazi's. The Pope, the Japanese and the moslem religious leaders are all wrong. But are they "evil?"

No.

But even so, they are a threat, and must be taken seriously.

Ned

[Ned]

Originally posted by Arrian


Umm... the thing about sovereignty is that the US people don't get to vote on whether or not Cuba should have nukes. The fact that Cubans can't vote about it either... well, the world isn't perfect.

-Arrian

Arrian, Regardless of whether we have a right to vote on specific issues of war and peace, we did elect Kennedy. And he did keep us informed on what was going on and why we were threatening war over nukes in Cuba. You really can't get more democratic than that.

As to the MTV generation, it is remarkable how uninformed they are. 52% could not answer the following question: Which was a ally of the U.S. in WWII?

a. Germany, b. Japan, c. USSR, d. Italy.

Ned

[Saint Marcus]

As to the MTV generation, it is remarkable how uninformed they are. 52% could not answer the following question: Which was a ally of the U.S. in WWII?

I'm ashamed to be part of that generation.

[Saint Marcus]

Thanks for your responses, Ned.

"Evil" puts the whole question of "them" against "us" into a religious context.

Does this thing really live in the US? Is religion really a part of this conflict? If our governement would ever say a thing like that (if something similar would happen) I doubt anyone would take them seriously (at least, after the first shock has passed).

[Ned]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus


I'm ashamed to be part of that generation.

But let me say that I am also impressed with their intelligence and genuine good will. You, Saint Marcus, are a good example.

Ned

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

I second that. Either he's trying out an extra-dry form of sarcasm, somebody's hacked his account, or he's gone MAD MAD MAD!!!!

[Saint Marcus]

But let me say that I am also impressed with their intelligence and genuine good will.

I'm not, and I'm around them every day...

You, Saint Marcus, are a good example.

Thanks. I appreciate it.

[ahenobarb]

Evil:


The people in the cellar were panicked. They had fled downstairs to escape the
bombardment, and it was difficult to abandon their shelter. Only splinters of light penetrated
the basement, but the dark provided a strange comfort. "We wanted to stay in hiding, even
though we were getting sick," Nasreen said. She felt a sharp pain in her eyes, like stabbing
needles. "My sister came close to my face and said, 'Your eyes are very red.' Then the
children started throwing up. They kept throwing up. They were in so much pain, and crying
so much. They were crying all the time. My mother was crying. Then the old people started
throwing up."

Chemical weapons had been dropped on Halabja by the Iraqi Air Force, which understood
that any underground shelter would become a gas chamber. "My uncle said we should go
outside," Nasreen said. "We knew there were chemicals in the air. We were getting red eyes,
and some of us had liquid coming out of them. We decided to run." Nasreen and he relatives
stepped outside gingerly. "Our cow was lying on its side," she recalled. "It was breathing
very fast, as if it had been running. The leaves were falling off the trees, even though it was
spring. The partridge was dead. There were smoke clouds around, clinging to the ground.
The gas was heavier than the air, and it was finding the wells and going down the wells."


http://www.f24.parsimony.net/forum58...ages/13260.htm

[Stefu]

Oh my God! Chris said something that could be interpreted as critique of US administrative foreign policy!

Okay, who is the hacker?

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by Ned

As to the MTV generation, it is remarkable how uninformed they are. 52% could not answer the following question: Which was a ally of the U.S. in WWII?

a. Germany, b. Japan, c. USSR, d. Italy.

Where was this survey conducted?

[KrazyHorse]

c&d are both proper answers...

[Immortal Wombat]

a b c and d are proper answers. c and d are correct answers.

[KrazyHorse]

Blah blah blah. Language nazi.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat

Where was this survey conducted?

I saw this on CNN's site last week, I believe. You may find it with a little searching.

I believe the story is about American kids.

No doubt, EU kids are better educated than this. At least I hope so.

Ned