Beyond Alpha Centauri:::: Discussion Thread 5 - Page 13

Mellian · June 5, 2002, 12:20

anyway, the concept of "the more rare it is, the higher its value" is becoming more and more obsolete, else we wouldn't be having inflation problems. Economy should be shaped base on the value of "how useful it is". Since energy is abundant and easilly acquired the more technology advances, and used more on more for a variety of things, should have an higher value. Anyway, Energy credit would probably be in its purest form.

Confused? here is something basic...Total Annihilation's Energy and Mineral economy and resource idea. Energy powers stuff as well as able to transform into minerals. Minerals is needed to build stuff, but can easily transforms into energy.

The Universe is reso7l+ved ar7ound energy, so why wo7ul+dn't it be va+luebl+e?

-*Mel+l+ian (disl+ike co7recting the mess up meybo7ard mistakes.1.1.1i think there is a virus o7r just the thing is wacked o7ut)

Mellian · June 5, 2002, 12:23

Energy and Minerals wo7u+ld be the mo7st val+uebl+e co7mmo7dities in a universe l+ike BAC.1

-*Mel++lian

Kataphraktoi · June 5, 2002, 12:35

i havnt played total annihiliation....and what exactly happaned to your keybord anyway?

i think energy would(maybe) be the center of economy on a single planet scale like chiron-not in a BAC setting where solar panals in space could pick up energy as fast as you could use it.i think a material economy would work here,but i havnt thought that out really yet....

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No, I am talking the next Great Depression that will come due to heavy inflation and so on, which is increasing every single year. people treated 1000 dollars US as we do a Million now. the way the rate is go7ing, well be treating a billion the same way as we do with a million now

i dont see how this would lead to a depression...

i still think an economy based on materials rather than ''energy'' is better...

and being able to read so called ''l33t'' talk decently,reading your text is easy....

Mellian · June 5, 2002, 13:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Cataphract887
i havnt played total annihiliation....and what exactly happaned to your keybord anyway?

Not MY keyboard, the katimahouse's keyboard :P my project leader thinks there is virus or something.

Quote:

i think energy would(maybe) be the center of economy on a single planet scale like chiron-not in a BAC setting where solar panals in space could pick up energy as fast as you could use it.i think a material economy would work here,but i havnt thought that out really yet....

So can solar panels on a planet. as you say, would use the energy pretty quickly...and requires energy to contruct more solar panels and so on. It is possible to use an energy economy in a interplanetary scale...just one all be connected in one energy grid network.

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i dont see how this would lead to a depression...

prices that constantly increases will piss people off, and become harder to pay. anyway, no time right now to discuss it this right now.

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i still think an economy based on materials rather than ''energy'' is better...

how is it better?

-Mellian

Kataphraktoi · June 5, 2002, 14:34

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prices that constantly increases will piss people off, and become harder to pay. anyway, no time right now to discuss it this right now.

as prices rise,the ammount of money people are paid rises.

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So can solar panels on a planet. as you say, would use the energy pretty quickly...and requires energy to contruct more solar panels and so on. It is possible to use an energy economy in a interplanetary scale...just one all be connected in one energy grid network

an atmosphere weakens the energy coming in.

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how is it better?

because i have doubts about an energy economy working at all,and if it dosnt work,it[material econ] is better

Mellian · June 5, 2002, 15:23

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as prices rise,the ammount of money people are paid rises.

Yes, and it rises and rises and rises....and the amount of time it takes to get around to increase ones pay is getting longer and longer. Also,to have the silly thing as comparing onecurrency to another is pretty silly too.

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because i have doubts about an energy economy working at all,and if it dosnt work,it[material econ] is better

YOU have doubts, which isn't a good answer to prove a point. And, how would a material economy be better if a Energy Economy fails (especially when we never have one yet)? It is like saying that Democracy is better then Communism (which is more of a form of economic system then a government one) simply because it failed in Russia JUST because is a pretty silly answer. Why did Communism failed?

Energy is fixed rate, material currency is not. Meaning, Energy is more stable then a Material economy, and Energy is becoming more important then currency itself as time goes on.

Anyway, in BAC we are using a Energy base Economy, like it or not mainly because it is base on SMAC/X.

-Mellian

Frankychan · June 5, 2002, 19:48

Oooook, Here's what I think-

(1)Quantum stuff-I don't know so I cant be much help here. Sorry

(2)Energy/Money-Hive uses energy how its supposed to be used. GHE uses credit to "pay" its workers. Like today's debit cards, the money really isn't tangible, it's just electronic units.
However, GHE has stockpiled TONS of precious minerals (gold, diamonds, etc) and this is usually used when dealing with those that are not members of the GHE that don't want our goods.

Although this form of economy hasn't been used much, mainly paying Pirates for....services performed. But for other factions like the Drones or Morganites, they'd probably be paid with precious minerals like Mr. Sym was going to be paid before his capture.

TheBee · June 6, 2002, 03:31

I've recently begun to read BAC, and I must say that it is fascinating. You've created a great piece of fiction!

I haven't read it all yet: the size is staggering! When I first saw it, I thought something like: "Oh, fourteen pages, that'll take an hour to read." Then I found out that you need an hour for each page!

So I was wondering: what actually happened to the Cult? has Dawn founded a star empire?

I'd figure that he depents heavily on Planet, the worms and everything, and talking to the Planet-being.

Can anyone help me out on this?

Mr. President · June 6, 2002, 03:35

I think the Cult amalgamated with the Gaians, who moved far from Alpha Centauri and now live on the moon of a Hive planet or something complicated like that. We used to have a writer who covered the Gaians, but she is in self-imposed exile for reasons which are not entirely clear to me.

TheBee · June 6, 2002, 04:59

The Gaians took the Cult in? How did they pull that one of? But the Gaians depent also quite on fungus and worms and everything, though not as much as the Cult.

Have they imported fungus on that world or what? Sounds kinda cool to me: instead of terraforming a new world, they had to xenoform (or whatever) it... see for example the Dune epos, as they try to find a way to make other worlds habitable to worms.

could work out nice in space combat too. Imagine locusts swarming down upon a ship and devour its crew... dunno if they need to breathe or anything...
or imagine a torpedo that buries itself in the enemy's ship hull, and releases hordes of mindworms into the ship. pretty scary

, like the assassination attempt at Amidila (sp?) in SWII.

Mr. President · June 6, 2002, 07:11

Somebody wrote down how the Gaians and Cult amalgamated. It'll be buried somewhere in this forum; I'll see if I can find it for you sometime. If it was me writing it, I'd have guessed that the reasons were mainly economic, but it wasn't me writing it.

I haven't seen Star Wars Episode II, but that thing you mentioned sounds cool. I'm guessing mindworms and whatnot breathe oxygen or nitrogen, so you could have an oxygenated or nitrogenated environment inside the missile where the warhead would go. Some Gaians would probably balk at the "unethical" use of Planetlife.

TheBee · June 6, 2002, 07:30

Prancing treehuggers

. But I'm sure that even the most eco-ethical-correct Gaian would see the use of a undamaged captured spaceship!

Mellian · June 6, 2002, 08:19

no7 time to7 co7rrect keybo7ard mistakes, but here go7es:

Gaians c7ontro7l+ a few systems, and have o7ne o7r two7 bases in Hive territo7ry. they are is7ol+io7nists, yet o7ther factio7ns stil+l+ ko7w where they are and that they are stil+l+ aro7und. Gaians are Enviro7nmental+ists, which do7esn't sto7p them t7o l+eave Chiro7n as they do7n't depend o7n mindwo7rms. .1.1.1and i wo7n't al+l+o7w the idea o7f mindw7orms in space fo7r o7bvio7us real+istic reaso7n.1 they stil+l+ have a few bases l+eft o7n Chiro7n, the didn't +left co7mpl+etl+y..1.1but Al+pha Centauri is m7ostl+y co7ntro7l+l+ed by the Peacekeepers tho7ught.

The cul+t stil+l+ exist, just genera+ll+y stuck o7n Chiro7n mainl+y because they are no7t interested in l+eaving Chiro7n, as unl+ike the Gaians, they depending o7n mindwo7rms and Pl+anet as their who7l+e factio7n is base aro7und mindwo7rms and Pl+anet.1 sure maybe so7me o7f the factio7n jo7ined the gaians, but the cu+lt HASN'T al+gamated with the Gaians.

As fo7r gems and so o7n with the advancement 7of nano7techn7ol+o7gy and rep+licatio7n/synthetics, gems can easil+y be created which requires ENERGY to7 d7o so.1 Evenm if yo7ur facti7on do7esn't use currency, stil+l+ depend o7n energy fo7r vario7us o7f things. Brian Reynold added bl+o7o7dy go7o7d reaso7n why he added the Energy Eco7no7my co7ncept into7 SMAC/X because it makes real+istic sense, and near future thing fo7r humanity to7 get into7 as material weal+th start to7 fai+l and energy beco7ming mo7re impo7rtant.

-*Mel+l+ian

Mellian · June 6, 2002, 12:02

[QUOTE(2)Energy/Money-Hive uses energy how its supposed to be used. GHE uses credit to "pay" its workers. Like today's debit cards, the money really isn't tangible, it's just electronic units.[/quote]

Lot harder to steal Energy via hacking then digits on a computer. Also, when there is a system crash, higher chance of keeping the Energy safe then a co7mputer keeping track of debit card accounts.

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However, GHE has stockpiled TONS of precious minerals (gold, diamonds, etc) and this is usually used when dealing with those that are not members of the GHE that don't want our goods.

i don't gold and gemstones would worth all that much, especially if some factions can produce the stuff from ENERGY and using nanotechnology or advance chemistry. Pirates will not be interested in Gold and Gemstone all that much, as it doesn't exactly help to survive.

with 50 million Energy Credits, TA will+ be able to contruct several more battlecruisers and bunch of other stuff.

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Although this form of economy hasn't been used much, mainly paying Pirates for....services performed. But for other factions like the Drones or Morganites, they'd probably be paid with precious minerals like Mr. Sym was going to be paid before his capture.

you wouldn't be to7 get much with precio7us mineral+s l+ike go7+ld o7r gemsto7nes as the Energy credit va+lue to7 produce the stuff fro7m scratch wo7ul+d be l+ike zero point so7mething of a energy credit.1

Anyway, Energy based Economy is pretty simple. All factions that uses any form of technol+o7gy that requires energy to o7perate uses Energy. The three basic commodities in SMAC/X that as much value is Energy, Minerals and Nutrients. Nutrients is not a pro7bl+em unl+ess yo7u can't pro7duce eno7ugh o7f it t7o feed yo7ur peo7pl+e.1 To7 pr7oduce nutrients, do7es require minimal+ energy use (/depending on the metho7d o7f creating nutrients).

For the Scions to reproduce Biometal requires Energy and Minerals. because 7of that, Scio7ns val+ue ENERGY and MINERALS lot more then go7l+d and gemsto7nes.

-Mellian

GeneralTacticus · June 6, 2002, 18:34

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Lot harder to steal Energy via hacking then digits on a computer. Also, when there is a system crash, higher chance of keeping the Energy safe then a co7mputer keeping track of debit card accounts.

You're forgetting that crime is largely non-existent in the GHE, due to Thought Control.

Mr. President · June 6, 2002, 18:45

Still gotta trade energy for something. Energy for energy = stalemate.

Kassiopeia · June 6, 2002, 19:10

Party! I just found my writing knack, probably was hidden in the woods or something. I had to do unimaginable things to lure it back.

Collins and Latchett, now, they might appear as the reincarnation of a certain other duo, but worry not. They are making a guest star visitation for a little subplot of mine, that will, with the way things have sorted out, in time be yet another unfolding chapter in the neverending saga of Greg and Filkins.

Kataphraktoi · June 6, 2002, 19:54

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Anyway, in BAC we are using a Energy base Economy, like it or not mainly because it is base on SMAC/X

i was not implying we needed to change from a energy econ to a material one in BAC!in fact,i like the SMAC economy energy model,i just have doubts to as wether it could work in real life.

and why dosnt my computer log me in automaticly when i open apolyton now?!

i have ''use cookies'' enabled,but it dosnt log me in anymore.suggestions?

Frankychan · June 6, 2002, 20:22

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Originally posted by GeneralTacticus

You're forgetting that crime is largely non-existent in the GHE, due to Thought Control.

Bingo, General Tacticus-you nailed it square on the head. GHE doesn't have "crime" per se anymore.

Anyway....Cataphract, I see that your got your pm thing working now. But I forget what I was supposed to pm you....

DUH!! on my part!
As for your log-in problem, sorry but I don't have a clue on how to solve it.

But to clarify the Hive economy here goes:

We indeed use energy as a form of economic currency, but also use material goods as well. I don't doubt that it would take a lot more precious minerals to equal energy, but I don't think that humanity would just ignore it. "Shiny objects" have been used as currency for thousands of years and I personally believe that this is inherent in humanity.

The Hive uses "credit" within its own society. For example, an average Hive citizen wanting to by cavern apples would use his/her allocated credit disk. This credit is based on the stored energy of the Hive.

For other factions, the Hive uses either its energy as currency or our stockpile of precious gems. I think that everyone would have a use for diamonds!

Kataphraktoi · June 6, 2002, 22:05

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As for your log-in problem, sorry but I don't have a clue on how to solve it.

seems to have ''fixed itself'' or in other words,went away for now.

Mr. President · June 7, 2002, 03:25

I don't think the exact details of how the economy works are that critical, since this is a story-telling exercise and not a pure world-building activity. Even in the real world, there's maybe twenty people in a country who really understand how the stock-market works.

Has anybody read The Tough Guide to Fantasyland by Dianna Wynne Jones? The entries under Economy, Animals, and a few others might be interesting for those agonizing over economic bases.

Mellian · June 7, 2002, 18:25

Quantum Computers doesn't require Quantum Reactors... meaning, can't have a Quantum tech and have both quantum computers and quantum reactors.

Would probably get Quantum Computer first, as your just storing light in crystal or whatever. Quantum Reactor is when your splitting a light particle. Quantum Lasers requires the Quantum Reactor tech.

Pretty Simple man and don't argue with me about Quantum Computers, because some scientists already succeeded in stopping light, meaning they get lot closer to Quantum Computers then quantum power.

-Mellian

Mellian · June 7, 2002, 18:29

Quote:

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus

You're forgetting that crime is largely non-existent in the GHE, due to Thought Control.

Your forgetting that Probes exist

Anyway, Energy is a resource which SMAC/X uses as money as well.

-Mellian

Kataphraktoi · June 7, 2002, 19:14

Probes?Probe teams?thats not crime.thats a...act of espionage.

GeneralTacticus · June 7, 2002, 19:49

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Originally posted by Mellian

Quote:

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus

You're forgetting that crime is largely non-existent in the GHE, due to Thought Control.

Your forgetting that Probes exist Anyway, Energy is a resource which SMAC/X uses as money as well.

It would be pretty damn useless for a Probe Team to steal Hive money, seeing as how it can't be spent anywhere outside the Hive.

Frankychan · June 8, 2002, 08:51

Well....thank you all Mellian, GeneralTacticus, Mr. President, Cataphract887:

Your input has been most helpful in my idea's of Hive society. However, it has not changed thanks to GeneralTacticus' last post (listed above). Stealing Hive "money" would be useless unless he/she was part of our "plans".

Like GeneralTacticus and Cataphract887 basically say,

It would be useless to hack into GHE databases to "steal" our "money" because it would only be useful if the perpetrators were to buy Hive items only.

As I stated before, precious minerals are the GHE's main source of bargaining with other factions. I think every faction (including the Pirates) would like SOME diamonds in their coffers when they decide to plan a course of action...

ANYWAY....GeneralTacticus:

What's up with Lysander??? The Hiver aid is on it's way as we speak. I've modified our post (w/Sprayber's help). I wanna know who prevails in the Cadre's civil war.....even if Lysander may be defeated.

Frankychan · June 8, 2002, 08:59

However, Mellian does bring up a good point,

If some individual was to hack into GHE files, they would find a cornucopia (sp?) of valuable wealth. Becoming rich through the GHE may be difficult...but it is possible.

I'm just trying to make it more fair to the other factions out there...

I don't want anyone to think the GHE is the "most-powerful-faction-out-there" government.

.....even though we are (sarcasm)

[j/k!]

oh BTW, I won't have normal access to a comp as I did last semester, so please be patient if I don't respond to your PM's or regular questions over the course of this summer session.

Thank you-frankychan

Mr. President · June 9, 2002, 02:17

I might not be in for a day or a week or two or three, so if anything really important comes up, send me an e-mail.

GeneralTacticus · June 9, 2002, 05:05

Franky: Sorry about the delay, I've had another attack of writer's block and have some quite urgent homework which requires my writing skills currently as well.

Frankychan · June 9, 2002, 21:56

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Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Franky: Sorry about the delay, I've had another attack of writer's block and have some quite urgent homework which requires my writing skills currently as well.

nah, its all good! I've also had a case of writers block so no worries!