Why Firaxis' implementation of unique civs is bad for gameplay

Cyclotron · May 7, 2001, 16:05

No, this is not another thread about hisotry and racism and other irrelevant topics relating to unique civs. Don't judge me yet... I think unique civs are a good idea, but Firaxis just isn't doing it right.

Unique civs, if implemented properly, should be a great tool. So why does Firaxis' implementation sound more like a straightjacket? Well, because uniqueness is created, not born. I will not oppose the idea on realism anymore... too subjective. Instead, I will say that the idea of Uniquee Civs that have built in characteristics that can never be changed, altered, or earned during the course of a normal game is inherently destructive of gameplay. Civ-specific features should enable civs to earn and customize their advantage in the course of a game; instead, Firaxis proposes to give each Civ a "historic" unit, even if this unit has no value to the player due to his geographical location.

In addition, I have heard that each civ will have only one unique unit... which is the greatest mistake of all for gameplay. What happens when that Zulu impis goes obselete? Well, as a culture, they no longer have any distinguishing traits... just the thing that proponents of unique civs try to say the idea will avoid! Firaxis' implementation so far means that the Americans will be the same as the Germans until the modern era... which is obviously not unique.

Differing Civs is a good idea, but not in this implmentation. Realism, whatever... Civ is not a simulator, it's a strategy game. But for gameplay, Firaxis' idea of unique civs is incredibly shortsighted, and for gaming is a giant leap backwards.

Any gameplay (not realism) comments?

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- Cyclotron7, "that supplementary resource fanatic"

Roman · May 7, 2001, 16:08

Well, cyclotron 7, I don't think you need to worry about unnique civs at all. Firaxis said the civilizations will be editable, so you can just 'erase' all the differences between them in the rules.txt, or an editor if there is one and play with non-unique civs.

That will also have the advantage of keeping everybody happy - those that do and those that do not want unique civs.

tniem · May 7, 2001, 17:02

Roman,

Everytime everyone mentions Unique Civs you say not to worry because you can edit it in a .txt file. Well, first I would believe that Firaxis will go further and let you turn them off in a menu.

But, the second thing is that if Firaxis is going to take the time to make unique civs a feature of the game it would seem to be a disadvantage to be turning them off everytime you don't want them. You will be turning off most of the strategy, the AI technique, etc that the team built into the game. I just don't see turning off such an option as a viable option to play the game.

I really don't have a stand on the unique civ issue. If done right I will probably love it and be glad that Firaxis put it in the game. I am willingly to let them decide whether or not it should be in the game. But if it is in the game, it will have to be an important part of the strategy and turning it off in my opinion will not be the solution.

Roman · May 7, 2001, 18:07

I guess you are right, tniem. It will negatively impact the AI if you edit the civs in the text-file. I haven't thought of that

. On the other hand, what would be the point of making civilizations customizable if this did negatively affect the AI? Perhaps Firaxis will not create civilization specific AIs at all.

I also don't have a stand on the issue. I used to be against it, but if it is well implemented it could probably be made to work well.

theohall · May 7, 2001, 20:48

This is my first time posting on this subject so here goes.

Making a comparison to Alpha Centauri - all of the factions (read civs) have unique features. The gameplay is still surprisingly balanced and with the number of other things a player can decide, a great deal of control is still available to the player. Civ 3 appears to be similar in that the civs will have numerous modifiable options but a few unique characteristics to make the civ unique - just like factions in AC.

As to unique units - who says the unique unit won't advance in time as the civ progresses? Yes, a Zulu Impis would be useless later, but what if that Zulu Impis develops into some kind of super infantry unit as the civ advances?

Just some thoughts to consider.
[This message has been edited by theohall (edited May 07, 2001).]

lord of the mark · May 8, 2001, 13:03

history is irrelevant when discussing civ?

great. Let them print that on the box, in large letters.

LOTM

Mokael · May 8, 2001, 13:20

at first, I was glad to hear about the unique units, and I couldn't understand what all the argument is about. But I'm starting too see the other point of view now ...

However.

I think reason the units were added, is the main theme behind all CIV games -- to rebuild Human Civilization on Earth. That means, if you play on Earth map, all CIVs will start at histrocialy correct geographical locations. In this case, unique units may not be such a bad idea.

But, yeah. I think we should be able to create our own "unqiueness". Just as we can create our own Tribes!

ancient · May 8, 2001, 16:05

why dont they just make unique units only be available in scenerios?

ancient · May 8, 2001, 16:06

ooh i have something else to say.. why do they insist on putting the design your own unit feature in the game? i hate it i hate it so..

tniem · May 8, 2001, 16:07

quote:

Originally posted by ancient on 05-08-2001 04:06 PM
ooh i have something else to say.. why do they insist on putting the design your own unit feature in the game? i hate it i hate it so..

You mean like SMAC's unit workshop. I am almost positive that Firaxis has confirmed that isn't in Civ III, which is too bad. I at times liked to tinker with a new type of unit.

Ralf · May 8, 2001, 16:35

quote:

Originally posted by ancient on 05-08-2001 04:06 PM
ooh i have something else to say.. why do they insist on putting the design your own unit feature in the game? i hate it i hate it so..

This is a clear misunderstanding from your part. It have already been 100% confirmed that the SMAC-style mix-an-match unit-workshop feature will definitly NOT be included in Civ-3.

The "Civ-specific units" is something quite different - its only about complete Civ-2 style units, but specific for each Civ (perhaps some units will be mutually shared by all the Civs). Also, perhaps its only the graphics that differs. If not, the ADM-data can easily be changed by tweaking the rule-files - so regardless graphics, the ADM-data for each similar-type unit (tanks, for example) can still be equal, if you rather prefer that.

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited May 08, 2001).]

ancient · May 8, 2001, 21:12

well heres where i got the idea.. a dirrect quote from firaxis.. the very oldest ask the civ team says "Yes, you will absolutely be able to create your own units! With regards to unit customization, we're committed to the scenario/mod community, and we realize that the ability to create diverse, interesting scenarios is one of the major reasons for Civilization II's enduring popularity. To that end, we'll be developing extensive tools for scenario and mod creators to use which will allow them to create whatever they can think of. Flexibility is the order of the day. " maybe i just took it the wrong way,, but if its the SMAC thing i hate it...

MazaNaza · May 8, 2001, 21:40

The whole unique units thing is kind of a paradox for me; I thought they were cool at first, and then after I thought about them I hated them. I like the idea, but like many other people, I think that Firaxis may be going about it all wrong.

I think that a better implementation for the special unit idea would be to create "paths." If a particular civilization follows a certain path through the game (i.e. focuses on war, economics, peace, happiness, exploration, etc.) then it could be awarded special opportunites along the way (like units). This would allow the player to chose his or her own destiny rather than have it dictated by the choice of civ. It wouldn't be something you'd be stuck on once you started, either; you'd be able to shift between them gradually throughout the game. This would help to create advantages and disadvantages for following a particular strategy rather than simply starting as a particular civ.

I really don't want Civ 3 to turn into an RTS - unique units are important in those games, but they wouldn't work the same in Civ. Let me know what you guys think about this.

MarBaS · May 8, 2001, 22:13

You obviouly know more about Civ then the game creaters themself to say that its not going to work. Sid seems to think uu are a good idea, and i do to.

Grumbold · May 9, 2001, 08:58

I have my reservations too. One or two unique units tied directly to your choice of nation in 4000 BC seems very bizarre, far more so than the concept of units only available whiel you have the right government model. Germans may have had a short term advantage in tank tactics for a few years but does that warrant them a unique WW2 tank style if the Russians aren't getting a T-34 and the US a Sherman? If every nation was getting unique skins for every unit then that is an entirely different and laudable ambition. One I hope will be open to the mod community even if Firaxis have not got the resources to achieve it.

Ralf · May 9, 2001, 13:01

quote:

Originally posted by ancient on 05-08-2001 09:12 PM
well heres where i got the idea.. a dirrect quote from firaxis.. the very oldest ask the civ team says "Yes, you will absolutely be able to create your own units! With regards to unit customization, we're committed to the scenario/mod community, and we realize that the ability to create diverse, interesting scenarios is one of the major reasons for Civilization II's enduring popularity.

Firaxis is refering to modpacks and unit-rules tweaking. Hence; the comment; "With regards to unit customization, we're committed to the scenario/mod community".

Its definitly NOT about any SMAC-style unit-workshop. If you want further official confirmations on this, click and read The official verdict: NO "unit workshop" in Civ-3.

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited May 09, 2001).]

tniem · May 9, 2001, 13:02

quote:

Originally posted by ancient on 05-08-2001 09:12 PM
well heres where i got the idea.. a dirrect quote from firaxis.. the very oldest ask the civ team says "Yes, you will absolutely be able to create your own units! With regards to unit customization, we're committed to the scenario/mod community, and we realize that the ability to create diverse, interesting scenarios is one of the major reasons for Civilization II's enduring popularity. To that end, we'll be developing extensive tools for scenario and mod creators to use which will allow them to create whatever they can think of. Flexibility is the order of the day. " maybe i just took it the wrong way,, but if its the SMAC thing i hate it...

I believe you took it the wrong way. The way I read it is that you will be able to create units (images and attibutes) outside of the game. This will be done through an editor similiar to the SimCity building editors or The Sims furniture editors. I believe this is what they mean because of in the quote the keywords are we're committed to the scenario/mod community...diverse, interesting scenarios

This isn't for the actual game. And I am almost positive that the unit workshop has been confirmed dead by a member of the Firaxis team either on this website or in the ask the team section (just don't feel like looking right now).

lord of the mark · May 9, 2001, 13:37

quote:

Originally posted by MarBaS on 05-08-2001 10:13 PM
You obviouly know more about Civ then the game creaters themself to say that its not going to work. Sid seems to think uu are a good idea, and i do to.

Sid probably thinks that UU's are necessary to create "cool" things like panzers to draw in casual gamers and increase sales. Which i cannot blame him for at all - this is a business after all. I think we can help point out the possible negative implications of this idea, and the designers can decide it they think it is worth it. and when it cames out we can decide if we like it. Sid is very smart, but he is not god. Just because he chooses to include a feature doesnt mean it was a good idea.

LOTM

MazaNaza · May 9, 2001, 17:54

I'm the first person to speak out against all the "prophets of doom" out there and have been known to say things like "trust in Sid" on occasion. That does not, however, mean that I am willing to simply accept every innovation that Firaxis comes up with. I'd like to once again draw everyone's attention to Civ 2 and the number of ideas that were cut from it. Many of them were created by Sid himself, and most of them were later disregarded by Sid himself. Many eyes can often see what a few cannot, and I have no problem pointing out a possible issue - this is the reason why games have design teams. While Sid may be running the show, he's got dozens of people below him who are doing the same stuff we do here.

I have no problem with constructive criticism, even the kind we do here that is unlikely to have any real effect. It helps those of us who do have a line to Firaxis come up with the suggestions that they do accept. Remember, "The List" wasn't created in a vacuum; it was the result of hundreds of threads just like this one.

I don't claim to know Civilization better than Sid, but I can and will say that the years of experience most of us in this forum have does give us a license to make suggestions.