Oil Supplies

[wrylachlan]

I was just reading another thread about naval supply lines and was thinking about how the supply chain is not really represented in the game.

Specifically I was thinking about how tanks can run forever even if they are not connected to oil. Once you build the tank (or anything else which requires oil) you can totally loose your oil supply and they still work.

My proposal is that oil-burning vehicles have a grace period of say 2 turns where they can be disconnected from an oil source without penalty. After that, for each turn they remain unconnected their stats decrease by 20% (obviously the exact percentage need not be hardcoded, you could set it in the editor). To be connected you must have a solid road or RR from the unit to the resource.

This would do a couple of neat things:

1.) Air superiority would be much more important since bombers can cut you off from your resources.
2.) Marines would become much more important since to do a tank invasion overseas you would first have to take a city with a harbor using your marines before your tanks arrive or else the tanks would be useless.

As a side note, ships would have a much much longer grace period before they need oil, maybe 10 or 20 turns.

[zulu9812]

I know that some people think that Civ3 was 'dumbed down', but I think this is going too far in the complication stakes.

[wrylachlan]

Originally posted by zulu9812
I know that some people think that Civ3 was 'dumbed down', but I think this is going too far in the complication stakes.

Yes it is a little more complicated... but I don't think its a concept that people will have that hard a time understanding - no gas and your car doesn't run: I think that's pretty basic.

The trick is really to find a clear visual representation of what is happening so that players aren't surprised when their out-of-gas tanks become useless. Maybe as you run out of gas the unit becomes more and more red-tinted. Or each has a pop-up like when your citizens go into riot. It would definitely make sense no matter how you visually represent the units, to have your Military Advisor pop up and tell you that "Our troops on the front line are running out of gas, maybe we should send workers in to build some supply roads".

One of the most consistent gripes about the game on this forum is that the warfare isn't tactical enough, making most people use brute force. The bottom line for me is that this is a simple idea, easy to grasp, which has complex ramifications on gameplay and military tactics specifically.

[Bella Hella]

i can see your point, but i'm fine with that aspect of the game as is. it's already pretty difficult to get oil if you don't have the appropriate terrain types in your land. you often have to go to war just to get the resource in the first place. then, having the oil run out. i don't think all your tanks should be disbanded when you lose your oil source!

i think of it this way: i've been pumping oil out of that source for years, and have a surplus, which i store in barrels. or, even though the main source is gone, there's still oil somewhere in the ground, just enough to keep the tanks fueled. *shrug*

one way to make the runing-out-of-gas idea a little more feasible would be to have the tanks use a little fuel each time they move.
if you have an oil source, no problem; you don't see the meter go down. if you DON'T have oil, though, you'd better save them for an emergency, or use them as defenders in your town. (in town, i don't think they'd use any oil since they'd just be sitting there like roadblocks in the role of defender).

[wrylachlan]

Originally posted by Bella Hella
i can see your point, but i'm fine with that aspect of the game as is. it's already pretty difficult to get oil if you don't have the appropriate terrain types in your land. you often have to go to war just to get the resource in the first place. then, having the oil run out. i don't think all your tanks should be disbanded when you lose your oil source!

No, not disbanded, just loose all movement points. And I agree with you, for this idea to work, oil would have to be a little more plentiful

i think of it this way: i've been pumping oil out of that source for years, and have a surplus, which i store in barrels. or, even though the main source is gone, there's still oil somewhere in the ground, just enough to keep the tanks fueled. *shrug*

one way to make the runing-out-of-gas idea a little more feasible would be to have the tanks use a little fuel each time they move.
if you have an oil source, no problem; you don't see the meter go down. if you DON'T have oil, though, you'd better save them for an emergency, or use them as defenders in your town. (in town, i don't think they'd use any oil since they'd just be sitting there like roadblocks in the role of defender).

That's a good point. Maybe this effect only happens in enemy territory. So if you are defending in your city - no problem. But if you advance on the enemy and it takes a few turns to take his city, and there are no supply roads running back to your territory - that's where you run into trouble.

[zulu9812]

I always imagined aunit in Civ3 as having the infrastructure along with it: officers, comm-link, food, fuel, ammo, etc..

[wrylachlan]

Originally posted by zulu9812
I always imagined aunit in Civ3 as having the infrastructure along with it: officers, comm-link, food, fuel, ammo, etc..

I agree, but there is currently no way to make supply-lines a strategic importance. I'm not saying my way is the best way. I'd love to hear some other ideas. I would just like some way of giving tactical significance to the supply lines.

[zulu9812]

Perhaps if cities could be besieged? i.e. if all 8 squares are occupied by enemy units then that city loses all resources (excluding the resource in the square the city was built on, if any)...

[wrylachlan]

Originally posted by zulu9812
Perhaps if cities could be besieged? i.e. if all 8 squares are occupied by enemy units then that city loses all resources (excluding the resource in the square the city was built on, if any)...

You can already "besiege" a city by pillaging all the roads in and blockading the harbor. (Does Air Superiority over an enemy city with an airport negate the Airport connection to the trade netwrok?).

My point was a supply line for the units. Yes the unit includes its officers and comm equipment and a reasonable supply of gas, but if America air-dropped a tank into the middle of Russia, and somehow it wasn't blown up on the spot, eventually it would run out of gas. There is no mechanism for this in the game.

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

The way I see it working best is as follows:
If the resource (such as coal or Oil) is lost to the internal trade network, through a loss of infrastructure or resource disappearance, then resource dependant units (like tanks and mech inf) should lose 1hp for every turn that they are in enemy territory, the only exception being if they are in a fortress or a captured city! Even in these structures, they cannot heal unless they regain access to the resource in question! On home soil, any damage recieved can only be healed at the rate of 1hp/turn unless they regain access to the resource! This will make your internal trade network all the more VITAL but, of course, appearance and disappearance ratios would need to be changed considerably!!
Anyway, just my $0.02c worth.

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by wrylachlan
I was just reading another thread about naval supply lines and was thinking about how the supply chain is not really represented in the game.

The reason is because supply line computations simply take too much computational power for a home computer game. Currently, each unit has to complete a shortest path algorithm to its destination, a primary cause of lag; but then each unit would have to find a path to a supplied city. When there is a large war, even among the AI's, the computations can already take several minutes.

If you got carried away, you could require three resources for tanks; ammo, fuel and spare parts. Of course, now we would be talking about a different game -- and a different generation of computers. Civ4?

[wrylachlan]

Originally posted by Zachriel


The reason is because supply line computations simply take too much computational power for a home computer game. Currently, each unit has to complete a shortest path algorithm to its destination, a primary cause of lag; but then each unit would have to find a path to a supplied city. When there is a large war, even among the AI's, the computations can already take several minutes.

If you got carried away, you could require three resources for tanks; ammo, fuel and spare parts. Of course, now we would be talking about a different game -- and a different generation of computers. Civ4?

I'm not sure that I agree that it is the shortest path algorithm that is slowing things down. Did someone at Firaxis make this statement? Do you have some figures as to what percentage of the lag is from this algorithm vs. AI deciding where to go strategically?

I'm not saying that you're wrong, I don't know. But I remember doing pathfinding algorithms as part of a programming class years ago, and they really weren't outrageous, definitely nothing capable of bringing a high-end P3 to its knees. So you may be right, but I'd be willing to bet it is the strategic computations of the AI that take the processor time.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by wrylachlan
I'm not sure that I agree that it is the shortest path algorithm that is slowing things down. . . . So you may be right, but I'd be willing to bet it is the strategic computations of the AI that take the processor time.

One clue is that map size is directly related to lag.

Heuristics is a very subtle problem. Generally, pathfinding belongs to a class of problems that increases exponentially with size. Here are a couple of links on the subject:

"Why are pathfinding and its related analyses so difficult for a computer?"
http://www.tcnj.edu/~games/papers/Fisher.html

"One Algorithm to Rule Them All – A*"
http://www.cs.csustan.edu/~rsc/CS4960S02/Messer.pdf

[Jethro83]

This concept sure would work wonders for this game. I don't find it that complicating. It just gives you more to think about when you're playing. This concept could also go into other resources too...

Iron - when the supply is cut off, swordsmen, pikemen and knights have reduced attack and defense because their armour cracks, their weapons get dull, and they can't replace or repair them because of a lack of iron.

Saltpeter - Attack and defense of Musketmen is nil after about two battles.

Horses - Horse units movement rate reduced after about two turns (horses do age you know).

Coal - Railroad movement rate dropped down to standard road. Ironclad movement rate reduced (reducing consumption of coal), coal plant shield bonus negated.

Uranium - No effect on existing nukes. Nuclear plant shield bonus negated.

[Ijuin]

Originally posted by LordAzreal
This concept sure would work wonders for this game. I don't find it that complicating. It just gives you more to think about when you're playing. This concept could also go into other resources too...

Iron - when the supply is cut off, swordsmen, pikemen and knights have reduced attack and defense because their armour cracks, their weapons get dull, and they can't replace or repair them because of a lack of iron.

Saltpeter - Attack and defense of Musketmen is nil after about two battles.

Horses - Horse units movement rate reduced after about two turns (horses do age you know).

This is a little complicated. How about instead, units cannot heal when the necessary resource is unavailable, representing that the resource is needed to produce replacement parts?

Coal - Railroad movement rate dropped down to standard road...Coal plant shield bonus negated...Uranium - No effect on existing nukes. Nuclear plant shield bonus negated.

I like this part. Also, if a resource gets cut off, then production on any units or improvements needing it under construction gets suspended? Currently, you only need the resource to START producton, and can finish the unit or improvement even if the resource gets cut off halfway through.

[Jethro83]

Originally posted by Ijuin
This is a little complicated. How about instead, units cannot heal when the necessary resource is unavailable, representing that the resource is needed to produce replacement parts?

I don't find it that complicated. But that's just me. I guess what I mentioned should be a selectable option at the beginning of the game, and what you mentioned about the inability to heal when the resource is unavailable should be in place otherwise. Or maybe in both cases.

I like this part. Also, if a resource gets cut off, then production on any units or improvements needing it under construction gets suspended? Currently, you only need the resource to START producton, and can finish the unit or improvement even if the resource gets cut off halfway through.

Yeah. Feels like too much of an exploit to be able to build tanks when you don't have oil or rubber. Definitely add the option to suspend production when the prerequisite resource is unavailable.

[Panag]

Originally posted by wrylachlan
I was just reading another thread about naval supply lines and was thinking about how the supply chain is not really represented in the game.

Specifically I was thinking about how tanks can run forever even if they are not connected to oil. Once you build the tank (or anything else which requires oil) you can totally loose your oil supply and they still work.

My proposal is that oil-burning vehicles have a grace period of say 2 turns where they can be disconnected from an oil source without penalty. After that, for each turn they remain unconnected their stats decrease by 20% (obviously the exact percentage need not be hardcoded, you could set it in the editor). To be connected you must have a solid road or RR from the unit to the resource.

This would do a couple of neat things:

1.) Air superiority would be much more important since bombers can cut you off from your resources.
2.) Marines would become much more important since to do a tank invasion overseas you would first have to take a city with a harbor using your marines before your tanks arrive or else the tanks would be useless.

As a side note, ships would have a much much longer grace period before they need oil, maybe 10 or 20 turns.

hi ,

well a solution to that will not be possible in the game , ....
however they could put in the editor an upkeep for resources , like one gold and one oil or so , ....

have a nice day

[wrylachlan]

Originally posted by Zachriel


One clue is that map size is directly related to lag.

I'm sorry, I know that path-finding is difficult, but the fact that a larger map leads to longer lag does not necessarily mean it is the pathfinding algorithm that is slowing things down. The larger the map the more units you have. Have you compared lag times between a huge map with 20 cities and 20 units total and a small map with the same? That would be comparing apples to apples.

And even if you had the same number of units and cities, a larger map will always take longer for the AI to make strategic decisions on since it has more territory to defend, more potential places to go.

What takes so long about the path algorithm isn't that running it any one time takes a long time, but that for each unit you have to run it multiple times so the AI can decide which path to take. Adding a run or two of the algorithm to figure out supply lines shouldn't be that difficult.

Also it could be done with a "supplied" flag in the tile. If you have 32 civs then that would be 4 bytes of info per tile. On a 100x100 map that's 10KB total to store the supply info of every tile. That shouldn't break the bank memory-wise. Then you would only have to run the pathfinding algorithmn when a road or RR is destroyed, not for every unit.

[Captain]

how about this:

no oil, you have ten turns remaining for your mechanized units to move. after that, they lose all mvt points (so you'd better make use of them quick and get that supply back, or move them into good positions where you want to keep them for a while). just put a counter on the side of the screen counting down.

this would also put infantry and other foot units back in the game. makes them worthwhile again.

[zulu9812]

Whatever the outcome of this, there needs to be an easy-to-follow on-screen reminder, and we don't want to clutter up the screen.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by wrylachlan

a larger map will always take longer for the AI to make strategic decisions on since it has more territory to defend, more potential places to go.
. . . .
What takes so long about the path algorithm isn't that running it any one time takes a long time, but that for each unit you have to run it multiple times so the AI can decide which path to take.

"More potential places to go," is exactly the problem with pathfinding algorithms. Not only does the AI have to calculate each path for every potential move, but then it would have to calculate what the supply situation would be after each potential move and what the supply situation would be after each potential enemy move. Otherwise, the AI would be very vulnerable to having its supply cut off.

[Catt]

Originally posted by wrylachlan


I'm not sure that I agree that it is the shortest path algorithm that is slowing things down. Did someone at Firaxis make this statement? Do you have some figures as to what percentage of the lag is from this algorithm vs. AI deciding where to go strategically?

Wrylachlan and Zachriel -- from the Apolyton 1.21f chat with Firaxis:

[[m]ike] Are there any efforts at making the larger maps more playable? I have heard it is something in the culture routine that slows down turns on huge maps.
[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] mike: it is the pathfinding which slows down the larger maps...

Best excerpts from the chat can be found here .

Catt

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Catt

[Soren_Johnson_Firaxis] mike: it is the pathfinding which slows down the larger maps... [/B]

Catt

Thanks Catt.

But we have hope! Computers are improving so rapidly, that what may seem impractical today, may be easy with tomorrow's machine. So, it is still worth while passing ideas back and forth.

[Panag]

Originally posted by Zachriel


Thanks Catt.

But we have hope! Computers are improving so rapidly, that what may seem impractical today, may be easy with tomorrow's machine. So, it is still worth while passing ideas back and forth.

hi ,

if it was only to do one thing , .....to keep us on track , .....

have a nice day

[Willem]

Originally posted by wrylachlan

My proposal is that oil-burning vehicles have a grace period of say 2 turns where they can be disconnected from an oil source without penalty. After that, for each turn they remain unconnected their stats decrease by 20% (obviously the exact percentage need not be hardcoded, you could set it in the editor). To be connected you must have a solid road or RR from the unit to the resource.

It's not a bad idea in principle, but there's already so many things for the game to take care of that the turns at that point, figuratively speaking, take forever. By adding yet another calculation to the mix, it would slow things down even more. Maybe in a few years, when we all have 1.6 ghz machines sitting in our livingroooms, it might be an idea to consider.

[Willem]

Originally posted by zulu9812
Perhaps if cities could be besieged? i.e. if all 8 squares are occupied by enemy units then that city loses all resources (excluding the resource in the square the city was built on, if any)...

Isn't that called Pillaging at the moment? Just blow the roads, no more oil going to city.

[zulu9812]

what about airports?

[Lonestar]

Dear Lord, I was hoping this would be a thread wondering why there wasn't any oil off shore....

carry on....

[Willem]

Originally posted by zulu9812
what about airports?

Bring in Artillery.

[KrazyHorse]

This is going a bit far; if we're going to do this then we may as well actually implement some sort of supply requirement to all units.