A challenge for StrategicKingMi

[Eyes_Of_Night]

Here's the challenge, I post one of my strategies I've written, then you post one of yours. First one to run out of strategies to post loses. And I mean real thought out strategies, not 1 paragraph stuff. Also it must be original, not something you copied off of someone else. I'll go first.

MAP VISUALIZATION

As everyone knows, customizing a map will change the way the map looks. 3 billion will make the land less random, while 5 billion will put desert right next to arctic in many cases. So we will already know how the map is going to be generated just by these settings. Everyone also knows that if you click on a dark area or on a water mass or land mass, next to the coordinates will be a number designating it as such. This is all common knowledge. But the question is, how is it useful rather than just telling you if there is a water mass or land mass there? As we all know, exploration is key in the very beginning turns of the game, no matter what setting you play. The decision of whether or not to go left or to go right, to go up or to go down, can be the difference between finding your opponent early on, or allowing him those precious extra turns to gain more ground. Up might lead to a hutless alcove forcing you to turn around and go back over the exact same terrain you came over, while choosing to go down could lead to a nice river filled with huts and on the path to your opponent. In my opinion the decision making in the very first turns of the game are what set the good players apart from the bad players.
So then, back to the basic question, how does that number tell us where to move, and when to move? Lets take a small map for demonstration. Lets say we start out on the map with land all around us. We build our first city and we now have a warrior to move, but which way? First, click on the land, usually it will be 1. If it is not 1, then your job is that much easier. 1 is the designation of the main land mass (in most cases), and 1 is also the designation of the main water mass (in 99.9% of the time). The land mass number we won't worry about because it is the same as the water mass. We want to know exactly where the main water mass is located. The reason for this is because it is impenatrable. There is no way around it and it determines whether you're on an island or a continent. Water masses designated as 2, 3, 11, etc. will always have a way through them or around them. 63 is always a lake or a really small water mass, maybe no more than 6 squares. This is key knowledge.

Ex. 1
You start the game with land all around you, but you are north of the equator. You have just 1 ocean square in your view to the left of you. The rest is land in every direction. Click on the ocean square. If it is 1, then you're going to explore to the east. Don't bother going up, and don't bother going straight down for right now. Leave it black. Those 2 areas are what I call claimed territory. They're areas where your opponent will not be and therefore there is no need to explore at this moment. If you go to the left you'll hit a solid wall of water. You may have just saved yourself 5, maybe 10 turns by going right first instead of exploring the other two areas. Go south east, and go straight east in exploring. But do not explore to the left of your city for now. Keep in mind this is only true on a small map where you'll know for sure they can't be. On a medium map you use the same principles, the difference is that you take into account the amount of space between you and the bottom or top of the map and that the main ocean mass may go for a long ways in both directions. In most cases though you'll be able to tell if there is sufficient land to harbor an opponent.
Ex2.
This time we'll talk using a medium map. Medium maps are more complicated and require knowing the other land masses. First click on your own land mass. To make things easier we'll say it's land mass 2. That means you'll actually be able to tell where the coastline is. Your start position puts you next to a water mass designated 19. First click around and determine 3 things:
1. How close is the next nearest land mass? How big is it?
2. Click around a ways out, do you see 2 a long ways out into the unexplored area? HOw far out? Can you determine the coastline of your continent? HOw far does it extend in each direction, and what is your position with respect to the equator? North or south?
3. How big is water mass 19?

Now you've gone ahead and answered these questions. There is no land mass near you, 2 extends a long long ways around the world (good news for you, you're on the main land mass), you determine that the coastline is goes a ways to the east, but even further to the west. You are situated south of the equator and water mass 19 goes a long ways to the west. Now, the questions is, north, south, east, or west? Obviously not south because that territory is claimed. You know the land to the east hits water mass 1 which means that is possibly claimed territory as well. At this point you need to answer another question: How many players are in this game? If there are alot of players, you could very well have an opponent to your east, but more likely northeast. However you are assured there are opponents to your west, but how far out is water mass 19? The next thing you need to determine is:

1. How much land is to the south of 19, and how much land is to the north of 19?
2. Go ahead and begin determining its coastline.

We'll say in this case you are very lucky. There is much more land south of 19 than there is north of 19. Now we know where to go. We're going to send the first horseman west, the second horseman is going to go north east to confirm the claimed terrirtory.

If you use these ideas on a small map, I guarantee you will claim half the map and be on your opponent with in the first 5-10 turns of the game or even sooner. If you use this on a medium map you will definitely have an edge over everyone else and be able to claim much more land than and huts.

[SlowwHand]

[rah]

1 point for Eyes. Reasonably thorough. Well explained.

I think you'd be surprised how many people use something very very similar. I'll do this in general, but probably won't click as much. Use of the x,y coordinates is important as you noted. On a small map with large land masses clicking will usually result in a '1'. and will sometimes not reveal what you want and you have to rely on the x,y coordinates. Which is why I probably don't click as much as you recommend.
Sometimes you get caught when on the, not as rare as you think occasions, the land map will wrap across the 0 axis. (granted it is more likely on what you refer to as "invalid maps")

RAH

[Ming]

Nice post eyes... beats the heck out of Startegicbore telling everybody to build barraks and temples

Oh... and by the way... I just had to change the title of this thread. While "competitive mild flaming" is allowed inside threads, Titles of threads that mention specific posters, and are abusive, are not allowed. Even if everybody agrees with the title

[atawa]

Originally posted by EyesOfNight


Ex. 1
You start the game with land all around you, but you are north of the equator. You have just 1 ocean square in your view to the left of you. The rest is land in every direction. Click on the ocean square. If it is 1, then you're going to explore to the east. Don't bother going up, and don't bother going straight down for right now. Leave it black. Those 2 areas are what I call claimed territory. They're areas where your opponent will not be and therefore there is no need to explore at this moment. If you go to the left you'll hit a solid wall of water. You may have just saved yourself 5, maybe 10 turns by going right first instead of exploring the other two areas. Go south east, and go straight east in exploring. But do not explore to the left of your city for now. Keep in mind this is only true on a small map where you'll know for sure they can't be. On a medium map you use the same principles, the difference is that you take into account the amount of space between you and the bottom or top of the map and that the main ocean mass may go for a long ways in both directions. In most cases though you'll be able to tell if there is sufficient land to harbor an opponent.

This might be easyer:

On a small 1 cont map (large landmass conts)
The north west numbers (the first digit on your location) range from 0 to 78.
The main watermass is ALWAYS around the 0 number.
Figure out on witch part of the map you are and move towards the middle, you'll find your opponent in that direction.
The only problem might be that you start in the middle, then move 2 units as eyes described in NE/SE and NW/SW, chances are that when you start in on the northern part, your oponent will start in the south.
But when you dont start in the 34-44 range, ALWAYS go towards the center of the map.

I thought this up myself but it must be around in some strategy thread somewhere.
I cant be the first to come up with this, me being a newbie that sucks at civ and all

[Eyes_Of_Night]

Gee, going towards the center of the map, what a novel idea. ISn't that what I just said except that I took it to a whole new level and actually explained it in full detail? Go post your junk on another thread rookie. I still await strategicdick's response to this.

[atawa]

You mean the whole new level where you write in such detail so you make a paragraph of something you can say in 6 words?

And no in your post I cant find the part about the main watermass being around the 0 number, witch is the basic idea.......you dont have to FIND the main watermass, you allready know from the start where it is.

[Eyes_Of_Night]

God damn you're ****ing stupid. It's not always on the 0 axis you dumbass. Small maps it is but on small maps we all know it's 99.9% of the time number 1 so yes you are a stupid ****ing rookie.

[atawa]

Ex. 1 blablablablabla

Then you follow up with:

Ex2. This time we'll talk using a medium map.

So in the first example you werent talking about a small map

I was under the impression you wrote this strat for 'rookies' to learn from, might as well put the basics in then

[Eyes_Of_Night]

I'm sorry, next time I'll make the reading more your level so you can comprehend it.

[SlowwHand]

Be succinct. Let people ask for more, so as to not overwhelm.
Just a suggestion, and no need to get all hot under the collar over it.

[atawa]

Think he's just angry he didnt put it in himself

[War4ever]

zzzzzzzzzz At least Eyes contributes to these forums....in more ways than one!!!!

[atawa]

I just tried to make a contribution to his strat, and judging from his reaction I probebly did.


Btw, what is your contribution to this thread besides raising your postcount?

[Deity Dude]

I'm sorry, and I'm sure Eyes will have something kind to say to me after reading my opinion of his post but, is this "something original."

I think the concept of the challenge is great, I just don't think the first example is what I would call original.

<---- Deity Dude waiting to get flamed by Eyes for questioning the master.

[DrFell]

Well I can't wait for strate's reply:

'Build barracks in cities you're building units in, because I've used this strat before and it has won me games, and that is true, IT'S DAMN TRUE'

[StrategicKingMi]

Well, since I just posted 4. I am up by 3.
SETTLER FACTORY- is a very monster strategy that most players dont do, I believe I have championed it for years now and quite elequently explained it in a paragraph. Nobody told me how to incorperate it or do it, that is me and me alone. I named it, thus its my strategy.
PLANNED REVOLT CITYS- Again, nobodyelse i have seen does this. I have explained this in depth also.
SHIP CHAINING- Another tactic I posted in depth.
Now if you are looking for me to tell others how to incorperate them into play, I will.
I did not say build barracks and temples. And if you think I did, your IQ is even lower then I thought it was.

[StrategicKingMi]

Three settlers built into a city instead of 3 different citys, is something I never, ever see anyoneelse do. If you want me to break down the math and endlessly go on about the numerous advantages of this. I will.

[War4ever]

how can you call the settler factory yours..lol...i have been playing the civ series since it came out computer....so if your board playing skills are what seperates us....then i bow down...most of the players i know use this strat as well....please show me something valuable...not some regurgetated drivel you read somewhere else

[deity]

What's the point?

You may as well look at the map if you want to play like this.

I don't really enjoy it because black clicking makes me feel giddy and I suffer from vertigo/menieres. It spoils the fun and mystery and once again is not really a strategy but nerds playing the program code.

I think a lot of you guys have lost site of 'civilisation' and what the game represents.

Deriving information from tri-angulation and black clicking is not a deliberately intended part of the game.

Some other 'features' are a bit less so - I guess we all form our own judgement on this but madly black clicking like I'm playing some hep RTS game is not for me.

---

And also, I don't understand why the Rah/Ming/War clique keep sucking up to Eyes, yet come down hard on Strat, when they are both idiots. Am I missing some American humour here??

[atawa]

Originally posted by deity


I don't really enjoy it because black clicking makes me feel giddy and I suffer from vertigo/menieres. It spoils the fun and mystery and once again is not really a strategy but nerds playing the program code.

While I totaly agree with this, it has become inascapeble to use this and other game bugs. You know the other guy is using them and fighting a war with one hand behind your back is not my thing.

Btw, if you're interested in a game without bug use sometimes give me a shout, must be very refreshing

[Hydey]

I could never look at porn and do the black clicking thing so I guess I will stick to porn.

[DrSpike]

Hehe, you shouldn't know exactly what the terrain looks like till you have explored it thoroughly eh Hydey?

[SlowwHand]

Originally posted by StrategicKingMi
Three settlers built into a city instead of 3 different citys, is something I never, ever see anyoneelse do. If you want me to break down the math and endlessly go on about the numerous advantages of this. I will.

You're saying add 3 settlers to a city to boost the city's population, rather than have 4 cities?

[atawa]

Nah, when celebrating in rep, build new city's with 3 settlers so they start to celebrate right away.

[SlowwHand]

You better hope you're interpreting correctly, or strat and/or Eyes will have your ass.

[atawa]

yeah eddited a bit just to make sure

[Chris 62]

Do you guys enjoy playing the game anymore?

It seems like all you do is analyze it these days.

[atawa]

Speaking of games, I challenged you to a game a while back but you declined couse you rather spend time in forums.....

The challenge still stands btw

[Eyes_Of_Night]

I'm sorry, but 2 setence tips aren't strategies. Not only that but ship chaining has been around before you even came online. And only a complete idiot would put 3 people into 1 city just so it can celebrate. If you're smart you build 50 cities and celebrate them all at once, but you're not smart as you just demonstrated.

Locating A Civ Using Demographics

This only works in 1 on 1 games. I'm not saying it doesn't work in larger games, but it's much harder to do and it's not really needed as much. Also this pertains more to duels on a small map. All resource values are assumed to be 2x. It's extremely difficult to do and you have to have a lot of knowledge of the values of resources and how the AI sets the map up, along with an active imagination to visualize how the map looks. Also I am assuming that the age of this map is 3 billion. On 5 billion or 4 billion the resources occur too sporadically to classify into zones. This can’t always be used, but a lot of times it can. Either way you can find out what’s in your opponent’s city view.

1. ZONES

First let us divide the map up into zones. Zone 1 is the artic region, 2 is the part between the artic region and the equator, 3 is the equator, then it goes 2 again and then 1. N1 is the northern artic zone, S1 is the southern artic zone just as N2 and S2 are north and south zones.

2. DESCRIPTION OF ZONE TERRAIN

Of course these descriptions are not set in stone, but can be used as basic guidelines for zone formation.

A. Zone 1

Very bottom region of map. Glacier, Tundra, plains, and forest can be found here. Plains squares are usually sporadic and are fairly rare.

B. Zone 2

Most diverse terrain. Can have just about anything in it. Jungles, and swamps will occur here most, but will sometimes be in zone 3 too. Mountains, hills, grassland, with even the occasional desert square. Mostly grassland however. Usually has the best land on the map.

C. Zone 3

Mostly desert and plains. Forests will occur here but will be sporadic. Occasionally there will be some jungle and swamp in this region but it's usually in patches and not widespread. Mountains many times will occur in large ranges. Grassland will also be seen here, but not in large quantities.

3. RESOURCE ZONES

Most resources occur in these certain zones, but can however be found sometimes out of their normal zones. Water resources are not included. This table shows zones of the resources, and my rough estimates of how often they will occur in these zones. * indicates a zone where the resource will occur only in extremely rare circumstances.

Buffalo: 2-35% 3-65% 1*
Coal: Just about anywhere. Not used in tracking civ.
Desert Oil: 3-80% 2-20%
Arctic Oil: 1-100% 2*
Fruit: 3-30% 2-70%
Furs: 3-60% 2-40% (only very lower regions of Z2)
Game: Same as Furs.
Gems: 2-70% 3-30%
Gold: 3-55% 2-45%
Iron: Same as gold.
Ivory: 3-100% 2*
Oasis: 3-80% 2-20%
Peat: 2-70% 3-30%
Pheasant: ANYWHERE Not as common in 3,1&2 most likely.
Silk: Same as Pheasant.
Spice: 2-70% 3-30%
Wheat: 2-35% 3-65%
Wine: Just about anywhere. harder to use in tracking civ but can give idea and tell what's in view.
4. EXAMPLE SITUATIONS

There are many situations you can tell where a civ is using demographics. It's obviously not a pinpoint of where it is, but it will tell you the zone the player is in.

A. Lets say you start out on a grassland square, no resources around you except for a forest and a lake. It's the first turn of the game, you both have a city. Now lets say you put your resource on the forest and the demographics say you are first in MFG, 2nd in GNP, and 2nd in Food production (FP). Put your resource back on a grassland square. The new values are 2nd GNP, 2nd MFG, 2nd in FP. In this situation if it shows you are first in FP then it's most likely a whale in your opponents capital. If that's the case it's not of much use to you but it does tell you your opponent is near a water source. However, if you're second in FP still then you have to go down the list of possibilities. There aren't very many that can give this combination of high food and high production along with GNP. Of course there could be a double combination of resources where your opponent built on a resource and has another one in view, but that is more rare and far more complicated. We'll assume the simpler combinations for now. A forest is obviously in view. Silk won't give the food but pheasant will. Now in order to get the GNP your opponent has to be on a river. TO test this we put our resource on the lake. If you're now first in GNP then your opponent has a pheasant and a river in view. This doesn't give a clear distinction of what zone your opponent is in, however it does tell what to look for. If you're still second in GNP then there's two resources in play which is far more complicated and would take a lot of writing to explain how to figure out what exactly they're using. But I want to assert that it is definitely possible to figure out what they're using in most cases.

B. Lets take another situation. Same resources in your city as before. You put the resource on the forest just as before, but this time you're second in MFG still. However you're first in FP, second in GNP. It could be that you're tied for first in FP, so take all your resources off and put on an entertainer. Look at the demographics, if you're second for FP then the following could be true: You both have the same resources and are using a forest, a river could explain the higher GNP of the opponent. Your opponent is using a double resource equation to explain the higher GNP, MFG, and either 3 or 4 wheat surplus (the amount of food going into the granary). If you're 1st in FP then your opponent is almost definitely using a combination of iron/oil with a river. To make sure it's a river and not a double resource combination use the lake again. In this case it shows you as first in GNP showing your opponent is using a river. Now the probability that your opponent is using oil on the artic is very low so we'll rule out zone 1. That leaves zone 2 and 3. Now we know that mountains occur in the upper regions of 2 and all along 3 and that oil is primarily in 3. So our target is the equator. It could be very possible that your opponent is on a river with iron down towards the bottom of the map, but it's far more rare.

Obviously there is some room for error using this technique, but it gives you an idea of where your opponent could be and in some cases a very clear idea of where they are. In the examples I know it's a little confusing and I didn't go into all the combinations and possibilities. I basically gave the examples to give you an idea of what this does and how to do it. You can't always use this technique because sometimes there are just too many possibilities. Majority of the time though you can or at least get some sort of advantage from it. Also, there may be a few mistakes up there because it was very hard to explain how to do this and got a little confusing trying to explain all the possible combinations on paper. It takes a lot of experience and a lot of practice to master using this so if you can't get any results on the first few times don't give up on it.