Which civs should be in?

[Adm.Naismith]

quote: Originally posted by Roman on 04-30-2001 06:49 AM I agree Adm. Naismith, Romans must be included.

ROTFL! You are too much involved to be fair!
BTW, just in case a Science Fiction MOD will be done, may I have Admiral Naismith (*) as one of Great Leaders?

Seriusly now, I still hope Firaxis will publish on its web site a new Civ every month, downloadable for free, for at least a year. It will cost something in term of Graphic Team resource but it will do wonders for people out here in term of Public Relation feeling. It'll pay back itself by sustaining the sell of original product box, IMHO.

I know, they underlined how easy will be to customize the game for dedicated fan but, simply spoken, fans usually have more good ideas than graphic ability and resources to realize MOD civ at the same level of commercial set.
It's a Firaxis product, they should provide a support (IMHO and from a marketing point of view), at least enhancing best fan "draft" MOD.

(*)OT note for not S.F. addicted: Adm.Naismith aka Miles Vorkosigan is a fictional character (a mercenary starship fleet admiral, a lord, a secret agent with serius phisical handicap and much more) described in great S.F. books written by Ms. Lois McMaster Bujold

[Roman]

BTW: Roman is actually my real (given) name , though I am not from Italy (I suppose Rumanians claim to be descendants of the Romans and I am one sixtienth Rumanian ). Besides they are my favorite civilization.

[PRoy]

Chinese
Indians
Russians
Romans
Persians
Egyptians
Greeks
Germans
French
English
Americans
Aztecs
Japanese
Mongols
Turks
Zulus

It would be great if one of these games actually modelled history as we know it. Failing that, I miss the historical leaders and their signature tunes from the original Civilization, especially the Bach piece used for the Germans, but I enjoyed them all. Anyhow, I tried to limit my list to those that were populous or at some point controlled lots of area and other nations/peoples, if only for a relatively short time. Aztecs and Zulus are there for PC; I might have preferred Spanish and Arabs.

[King Richard]

The following criteria should deside which civilizations that'll be picked:

1. The civ must have a rather large area under it's control (on their largest).

2. The civ must have control over their area (Djengis Khan didn't! Nor did Alexander the great, at first.)

3. The civ must be a economic, military or cultural power of significance.

4. The civ must have cities!

5. Two civs ruling the same area can't be in the same game at the same time (romans/Byzantines, Teotihuacans/Aztecs).

6. The list shouldn't just pick the most powerful civs to our standards, but be a significant civ in the time-period they excisted.

7. The civ should have survived more than one leader!

8. Playing a world map, the civs shouldn't start too close.

Following these criteria the list should be as follows (starting from the beginning of time):

The river-civilizations:
1. Egyptians (one of the earliest and most powerful civs!)
2. One of the civs of Mesopotamia, probably the babylonians or the assyrians (also one of the earliest and most powerful civs)
3. Indians of the indus valley (the civ of the indus valley, or India was one of the four earliest civs and, like the other four regions of the four, was one of the most important of pre-ancient times!)
4. Chinese (the last of the four first. Has been the longest lasting empire in the world!)

Ancient civs:
5. Greeks (This is a tricky one! The greeks didn't have an empire, they had a bunch of city-states, constantly at war with each other. AND Alexander the great was Macedon!) -I'm not sure if I want them in civ 3...
6. Persians (They had a vast empire, much more important civ than the greeks, in my opinion...)
7. Romans (The first really great empire in all aspects!!!)

Middle Ages:
8. Franks/Carolingians/French (Let's just call them the French, ok? Has made a huge impact on Europe since Charlemagne! -Must be in...)
9. Russians (In the late middle ages the russians started to expand their borders, but they were stopped by Djenghis Khan. Later they soon became one of the biggest empires the world has ever seen!)
10. Mongols (This is also a tricky one... Djenghis Khan conquered most of asia, but the empire became divided into three separate parts following his death. -These were still pretty large on their own, and all were mongol!)
11. English/British (Took over the italian city-states' hegemony as financial/industrial centers. Later became the most powerful empire in the world. -My easiest choice!)
12. Spanish (made a huge empire, but didn't really have that much control over it. Huge military power, did also have many possesions in europe)
13. Inca or Maya (great civs of the americas, not very advanced, but culturally rich and powerful in their region of the world. The spanish didn't kill them -disease did!)
14. Arabs (The belief in Allah made these nomads a fierce opposition and and gave them a huge empire!)

15. Germans (Their three reichs made their power almost impossible to defend against!)
16. Americans (Is the only remaining superpower today!)

As I said, I'm not sure if the greeks should be in. My choice would be the Turks (Remember the Ottomans?), Byzantines could also be a choice, but are really just the other half of the roman empire, so screw them!

[tniem]

quote: Originally posted by King Richard on 04-30-2001 10:53 PM As I said, I'm not sure if the greeks should be in. My choice would be the Turks (Remember the Ottomans?), Byzantines could also be a choice, but are really just the other half of the roman empire, so screw them!

I would leave Greeks in and only have either the Turks or Arabs. Very similar. Besides, no one wants to take away the site owner's country from the game.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Chinese
Egyptians
Americans
Romans
Indians
Germans
English
Zulu
Vikings
Japanese
French
Arabs
Greeks
Incans
Aztecs
Russians

[Bereta_Eder]

edit: I wanted to say something but I forgot it.
[This message has been edited by paiktis22 (edited May 09, 2001).]

[me_irate]

I cant believe you people. A very disturbing trend has recently been active toward the end of the post. Many of you are leaving of my Babylonians! What would a civ game without Babylon be? I shudder to think of the possibility. If not the babylonians, at least the Summerians, or Persians, or the barbaric Assirians. This is the cradle of civilization people; where civ began. You cant have civ without the Babylonains, and if you did i might not buy it. but i most likely still will, i just wont be happy.

[Dhalsim]

Let's have:
Epicurians, Hedonists, Agnostics and Oblomov's.

They join the ranks as various barbarian tribes.
Don't do much, but, allways been around, allways will.

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Yoga Flame

[Ralf]

Then ever there is a problem with agreeing on a issue like which Civs should be included or not, one can always go back and check out what we already had in Civilization II. We had no less then 21 Civs to choose from. OK then, which 5 civs should be taken out from below list?? Perhaps this approach is somewhat easier then agreeing what Civs should be included. Or perhaps not?

- Romans
- Babylonians
- germans
- Egytians
- Americans
- Greeks
- Indians
- Russians
- Zulus
- French
- Aztecs
- Chinese
- English
- Mongols
- Celts
- Japanese
- Vikings
- Spanish
- Persians
- Carthagians
- Siox

[tniem]

quote: Originally posted by Ralf on 05-09-2001 06:03 PM Then ever there is a problem with agreeing on a issue like which Civs should be included or not, one can always go back and check out what we already had in Civilization II. We had no less then 21 Civs to choose from. OK then, which 5 civs should be taken out from below list?? Perhaps this approach is somewhat easier then agreeing what Civs should be included. Or perhaps not?

Still a very difficult decision.

I'd take out the Celts, Siox, Japanese, Vikings, and Carthagians

I'd switch Aztecs to Incas.

And while I'm not sure what other culture I'd swtich, I really believe that the Turks/Arabs/Ottomans/etc. should be included in the game. During the Dark Ages they were all the rage in the world.

[Admiral PJ]

I want the PERSIANS to be in (old persia sounds such a great and mystical
place to me) the CELTS which were important enemies of the Romans
(woah i can see some cool lightning storms down here in South England right now BTW should have them in civ3 too )
the ENGLISH , ROMANS, FRENCH,
EGYPTIANS, ZULUS, INDIANS, JAPANESE(seem quite similar to the Chinese
apart from modern politics)
number 9 goes to RUSSIANS,
and of course the APACHE INDIANS (or SIOUX but these sound cooler and could be more aggresive , could be customised to be any millitaryy/aggressive aboriginal people?)
POLYNESIANS, (as a generic less aggressive tribal like people, dosen't really work but they had a big Culture which the US consumed in Hawaii at
least, though us europeans probably killed a lot of them off too with diseases)
MAYANS ? (they had a great culture and sound cooler than the Incas I think)
GERMANS, SPANISH, (no vikings? or call them scandinavians)
, GREEKS,
and the AMERICANS (just to get the city names like San Francisco and New York)

Perhaps cultural values of these civs will be reflected more now.. with the Greeks/Egyptians etc able to win by having a great culture

I think there should be a good range of city names too..
oh and also Essex, well we seem to be a separate country in this county

Admiral Pete

[To_Serve_Man]

People, of course the civ that is missing is none other than....

The KISS Army!!!!!

[Adm.Naismith]

quote: Originally posted by King Richard on 04-30-2001 10:53 PM The following criteria should deside which civilizations that'll be picked:

Very well argumented (sorry for snipping it in reply). It's a good way to go, the only limits is fixed by Firaxis about a grand total of 16 Civ available.

Following the old news from Firaxis about wide available customization, I hope others can be added to the list of available civs (and I still hope for some later "Firaxis official" downloadable for free from web sites).

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

[Roman]

quote: Originally posted by Dhalsim on 05-09-2001 04:03 PM Epicurians, Hedonists, Agnostics and Oblomov's.

Why do you want to have philosophical streams representing barbarians?

BTW: I am an agnostic atheist and I am not a barbarian!

Wait, maybe "Grrr, Hiiii, kill, kill, burn, pillage!"

[Grumbold]

If 16 is a soft limit and modders can make every nation they ever thought of available to plug in then we don't have a problem. Having one new race available per week/month to download from the official website would be a nice touch. The just need to make sure they set the pick window to be scrollable, capable of holding a huge list and no-brainer stuff like that. Making new races available but having the computer unable to select any but the first 16 to use as opponents to you would be another classic mistake

[lord of the mark]

quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 on 04-28-2001 10:57 PM What exactly is the problem here? Asssuming that Firaxis lets you choose your own Civ name and Leader as all previous Civ games, how does it matter at all that they decide to put in some civs and take away others? What is keeping you guys from just making your own custom civ?

The unique units (and any other unique civ advantages) the civ that gets panzers (or whatever else you choose to call the bonus armour unit) is the Germans, whatever you do with the leader name or city list. The more elaborate the unique civ attributes the more strongly this is true.

Which leads to dismal debates about which civs deserve to be in the game, like this one. This could easily have been predicted - didnt anyone here look at the AOK boards before AOK:TC came out?

Best solution - go back to generic civs!!!!!!

LOTM

[lord of the mark]

quote: Originally posted by Grumbold on 05-10-2001 06:55 AM If 16 is a soft limit and modders can make every nation they ever thought of available to plug in then we don't have a problem. Having one new race available per week/month to download from the official website would be a nice touch. The just need to make sure they set the pick window to be scrollable, capable of holding a huge list and no-brainer stuff like that. Making new races available but having the computer unable to select any but the first 16 to use as opponents to you would be another classic mistake

a new civ each week to dl. With unique attributes. and they are going to playtest a civ per week for balance? Nah, if you get new civs it will be after a year, in an xpack, and you will pay between $20 and $40 US for it. See the history of AOK

LOTM

[Cyclotron]

quote: JAPANESE(seem quite similar to the Chinese apart from modern politics)

Sir, I must protest! The Japanese are extremely different from the Chinese. It is a western misconception that they are somehow similar. They have fufilled different roles in history, have taken different paths in civilization and have always had a different culture. It is vitally important that the Chinese at least be in (one of the 4 major river valley civs), and the Japanese are also crucial!

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- Cyclotron7, "that supplementary resource fanatic"

[To_Serve_Man]

quote: Originally posted by Roman on 05-10-2001 06:11 AM BTW: I am an agnostic atheist and I am not a barbarian! Wait, maybe "Grrr, Hiiii, kill, kill, burn, pillage!"

More power to ya! Its good to see that religion is losing its hold on the people of earth!

[lord of the mark]

Yiddish civ

Unique units:
1. the yiddishe mama - armed with pot of matzah ball soup. Ignores city walls.

2. Uncle Jake - every city with a colisseum has odds each turn of generating uncle Jake. He cost 1 gold per turn, until the bookies get him.

3. Cousin Max the Red - can be built in any city with a library , university and harbor. Acts like spy, but can only bribe cities, no other spy functions. Can be used against any other civ even commie one ("didnt i tell you I broke with the Stalinists years ago!!!")

When computer advance is discovered all Maxes are transformed into yuppies, who add to the science and trade output, but require high levels of luxuries.


If capital is conquered, civ splits into "jewish" and "israeli" civs

Jewish civ is EXACTLY the same as American civ, but cannot go fundie.

Israeli civ has good military tech research capabilities, is exempt from happiness penalties when at war as a demo, but has low trade output until the development of the internet advance, when it becomes possible to build "silicon wadi"

Each turn some workers from jewish civ migrate to Israeli civ. They require very high luxuries, or they become very unhappy.

In turn some israeli workers migrate to jewish civ. They are happy with low luxury level, but they reduce jewish civ attitude toward israeli civ.

Occasionally some "yiddish" cities survive the split. However they no longer produce jakes or maxes, and mamas lose offensive capabilities, are only good for enforceing martial law. When in demo the leader is called "the lubavitcher rebbe" When in fundie the leader is called "the szatmar rebbe" and automatically declares war on Israeli civ.


LOTM

[Dhalsim]

Lord of the Mark

Quality post.

I still reckon the barbarians could be diversified.
Perhaps Vandals, Mongols, Thugs, Hun. From the 20th C on, Anarchists.
All with different abilities.ie, Anarchists cause extra pollution due to their fondness of dogs and 'punk rock' and aversion to soap.


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Yoga Flame

[Adm.Naismith]

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark on 05-10-2001 07:23 PM a new civ each week to dl. With unique attributes. and they are going to playtest a civ per week for balance? Nah, if you get new civs it will be after a year, in an xpack, and you will pay between $20 and $40 US for it. See the history of AOK LOTM

Every week is unrealistic, to said the best, but looking to others succesful game experience, after a couple of months (and may be the first patch ) you'll need to keep the hype to the game every months and so.
"It's marketing, baby".

You can spend money advertising or using Internet leverage (forums, newsgroups, etc.) giving away some more food for them.
Balancing the civ can be a minor issue: first of all we don't know for sure about the relevance of unique attribute (if any) will be added to standard 16 civ, then consider that Firaxis could simply look at fan mods, chose the more interesting available (and mod author anf early players have surely tuned it a bit already) then take a professional graphic to draw and skin leader, units, cities, what's in game and need professional touch.

The xPack is more likely for Firaxis (looking back to SMACX) but I hope they change this habit. AOK is from Microsoft, it's their embedded nature to pack and sell "enhancements": see Win98, Win98se, WinMe ...


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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

[Grumbold]

After the first month Firaxis will not have to make or playtest any Civ's if they don't want to, just cherry pick from the dozens that enthusiastic fans will submit. If a civ gets a high enough fan approval rating in the "unofficial download" section, port it into the "officially approved" download section with an acknowledgement to the creator. Firaxis happy, modder happy, fans happy ...or at least that seems to be the way Maxis have successfully managed it with their SimCity 3000 site.

Europa Universalis have done similar things, with their official site wholeheartedly offering all sorts of fan scenarios including the unofficial Grand Campaign for download which is a fan generated replacement to the official Grand Campaign scenario.

[Roman]

quote: Originally posted by To_Serve_Man on 05-10-2001 07:41 PM More power to ya! Its good to see that religion is losing its hold on the people of earth!

Unfortunately, my country is experiencing a religious revival since the fall of communism. I think getting rid of religion is the only good thing communism has done to Eastern and Central Europe, though I do not agree with the means they used.

[Sirotnikov]

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark on 05-10-2001 08:42 PM Yiddish civ LOTM

ROFLMAO!!!



This is really good. I hope they take you up on that.

I think that it's a necessity that a jewish / israeli / hebrew / israelite civ appears as we effected lots of things! We gave you monotheism, we gave you enstein, we gave you circumcision!

For god sakes people, we rule the world.

I mean, no we don't. It's all nati-semitic propoganda

[Bereta_Eder]

quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov on 05-11-2001 01:20 PM ROFLMAO!!! we gave you circumcision!

you can take it back !

[Krypter]

Why not allow the civilizations to change over the course of the game? That way the Babylonians could become the Arabs, the Romans could become Italians (and then the EU), and the Spanish could become the Mexicans if they conquered the Aztecs.

Let the player change the name of his civ during the game too. I always felt strange playing the Americans in 2000BC, or the Romans in 2020AD.



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:::Krypter:::
Sic Semper Tyrannis

[Antonios]

King Richard
You must take a book and learn history or please don't speak!You can't say that Alexander the Great was not a Greek but a Macedonian.Macedonia was and continues to be a part of Greece.Also you must learn that Greece had great empires in history like the empire of Alexander the Great and Byzantium.You can't say that you don't want a civilization that influenced all Europe in all times of history with it's great culture.You can't say that you don't want a civilization that created great cities in all Mediterrenian and achieved to go to North and South America thousands of years before Colombus did.You can't say that you don't want a civilization that created buildings like Parthenon or Pyramids before Egyptians built them.A civilization that made people start THINKING and love THINKING.You can't write history without having the knowledge of it.So first read and search or silence.

[Maxxes]

quote: ...and achieved to go to North and South America thousands of years before Colombus did