Only 7 civilizations per game - Page 6

yin26 · May 1, 2001, 06:52

LOL! You guys are TOO much! First, as Imran has pointed out, we don't even know how Minor Civs will work...and that could really round out the picture here. So just hold on until we have more info!

Roman · May 1, 2001, 06:57

quote:

Originally posted by yin26 on 05-01-2001 06:52 AM
First, as Imran has pointed out, we don't even know how Minor Civs will work...and that could really round out the picture here. So just hold on until we have more info!

Unfortunately I think I know how minor civs will work - barbarians.

Roman · May 1, 2001, 07:11

WHY IT MAKES BUSINESS SENSE TO RAISE THE CIVILIZATION LIMIT ABOVE 7

THEORY OF POSITIVE EXTERNALITY:

From the above posts, it is clear that the group that is most angry about the 7 civilization limit is the scenario makers. This is hardly a suprise - playing with more than 7 civilizations per game in a normal, single player game may not be a large improvment as some posters point out, but having more than 7 civilizations is important for making scenarios, because it is a fundemantal limit and being able to change it is an important part of customization. Undoubtedly removing the limit could contribute to more and better scenarios.
Firaxis people themselves have admited that one of the most important reasons for the longevity of the Civilization series has been the customizability of the games and the scenario/mod community's creation of scenarios for the Civilization games. Raising the 7 civilization limit would not only stop the alienation of some scenario makers who have been aking for an increase in the number of civs per game (as a priority) for years and feel they have been totally ignored on too many occasions, but would also enable them to create more and better scenarios.
This in turn would have a positive effect on sales, as scenarios are posted on the web and thus provide a positive externality for the compan and it would increase the longevity of the game further.

Therefore, please Firaxis reconsider this 7 civilization limit, for your own good and ours too.

Roman · May 1, 2001, 07:46

WHY THE 7 CIVILIZATION LIMIT IS SO DAMAGING TO SCENARIO MAKERS

A CASE STUDY: The world as it is now - scenario

I thought a good explanation of the damage the 7 civilization limit does to scenario makers could be provided by means of an example.

Let us suppose a scenario maker decides to create a scenario based on the real world in its current state.

The scenario maker must decide how to split up the world into 7 civilizations. This will probably end up in the following division:

USA - North America
EU - European Union and associated countries
Russia - Commonwealth of Independent States
China - China, North Korea, Burma
India - obvious
Islamic States - a large amalgation of countries many of which have little to do with each other and are even outright hostile to each other
Neutrals - everybody else

Now you must be able to see the limits this imposes on scenario-makers. With this kind of set up an attack on Thailand by China will immediately result in China being at war also with Brazil, Switzerland, Mali, Japan, etc. Not only that, but the "Neutrals" also invariably are the most powerful civ in the game as they unite a vast collection of countries many of which should have no connection to each other whatsoever. I am sure you understand that is only an example and that there are many other problems with this setup and now can appreciate the problems scenario-makers face with the 7 civilization limit.

Roman · May 1, 2001, 08:05

BTW: The above case study comes from my own experience (and there are many more), so I know how frustrating the limit can be.

Roman · May 1, 2001, 08:07

The solemn promise:

Once Firaxis clarifies this issue ie. explains whether the limit will be editable in the text-files, or whether there will be minor civs greater than just the barbarian cities and says why they decided to keep the limit, I promise to make only one last final post on the matter detailing my final opinion on it.

techumseh · May 1, 2001, 10:12

I have only one word:

BOYCOTT!

Imran Siddiqui · May 1, 2001, 14:44

quote:

Unfortunately I think I know how minor civs will work - barbarians.

Mind reader? Fortune teller? How do you know? Jeff Morris's first announcement was the inclusion of Minor Civs. The barbarian mode is NOT what 'The List' said when it asked for Minor Civs. And you know, the previews also haven't spoken about the AI and many other things. Because they haven't spoken about Minor Civs doesn't mean that they aren't in there.

Roman · May 1, 2001, 17:14

Imran, unlike the AI, minor civs are a much more tangible element of the game, so it would be noticed by the previewers. Moreover the fact that minor civs were the first announcement just indicates how old the announcement is and decreases the reliability of the information contained therein.

Roman · May 1, 2001, 17:19

quote:

8
Number of civs to play with

*The below statements apply only if the above is actually true, which is by no means certain due to the contradictory nature of the information given. I think this information is trustworhty though, because it is the latest information we have."

Yes!! You know what this means? This means that the hard-coded limit isn't 8 (due to binary nature of computing) and we will be able to tweak this in the text files to at least 15.

My hopes are up again.

Roman · May 1, 2001, 17:21

Wow, 5 pages ... this thread will be locked soon.

Anyway, in the light of the new information,

there is probably no use for the thread anymore.

Roman · May 1, 2001, 17:43

FINAL NOTE:

I (though I was not alone

)appologise for causing all this fuss needlessly, when Firaxis has already implemented what we wanted.

DrFell · May 1, 2001, 19:54

Damn, I hope this is true....

DrFell · May 1, 2001, 19:55

*DP*
[This message has been edited by DrFell (edited May 02, 2001).]

Fintilgin · May 1, 2001, 19:55

Not to be a naysayer, but just `cause there's 8 available dosn't mean it will be editable in the text files. Someone might have to hack the code or something... Still it would seem strange for them not to make the option available.

Why lock long threads anyway? Isn't that just stopping the busiest and most popular discussions? ::scratches head::

Joe

Roman · May 1, 2001, 20:04

quote:

Originally posted by DrFell on 05-01-2001 07:55 PM
Damn, I hope this is true....

So do I...

Lawrence of Arabia · May 1, 2001, 20:06

Me too

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Its okay to smile; you're in America now

Roman · May 1, 2001, 20:08

quote:

Originally posted by Fintilgin on 05-01-2001 07:55 PM
Why lock long threads anyway? Isn't that just stopping the busiest and most popular discussions? ::scratches head::

All threads are locked once they reach 5 pages in length. I am not sure as to the precise reasons behind this, but it probably has something to do with how many pages the UBB code can support. Ask MarkG; he will be able to answer that better.

Imran Siddiqui · May 1, 2001, 20:43

quote:

Imran, unlike the AI, minor civs are a much more tangible element of the game, so it would be noticed by the previewers.

Not if they weren't included in the alpha version of the game. Remember, the game is ONLY 50% complete. Maybe they are trying to get Minor Civs to work correctly. After all, how much of the game did the previewers play, if ANY? Maybe the shots are simply the shots that Firaxis GAVE to the previewers.

Jeff Morris said Minor Civs would be in, and we haven't heard him take it back.

Roman · May 1, 2001, 21:13

That's indeed a possibility, Imran, albeit IMO unlikely. I didn't explicitely say that there definitely are not minor civs in Civ 3, but I maintain that it is unlikely.
I guess we will have to see what Firaxis has to say about this.

Sabre2th · May 1, 2001, 22:56

possible OPTION for 15 civs........... WOOHOO!

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"We don't know a millionth of one percent about anything."
-Thomas A. Edison

King Richard · May 1, 2001, 22:59

Where did the info on minor civs come from??? Is it confirmed? or are we just talking about the new barbarians (with cities)?

Imran Siddiqui · May 1, 2001, 23:58

It was the first confirmed piece of information recieved by us on this site by Jeff Morris. They haven't told us anything else about it. If the Barbarians are the Minor Civs, then Jeff lied to us (Barbarians aren't Minor Civs as we said in 'The List').

Roman · May 2, 2001, 00:44

quote:

Originally posted by techumseh on 05-01-2001 10:12 AM
I have only one word:

BOYCOTT!

Hmm, I wouldn't go as far as that. However, if there were two major disapointments in the game eg. Civilization limit set at 7 and inclusion of future techs, then I would certainly consider not buying the game. Luckily, Firaxis has already said that the game will end in 2020, so I needn't worry.

techumseh · May 2, 2001, 02:01

Then why haven't they replied to this (5 page) thread? Aren't they monitoring this topic? It seems that they could clear this up in a minute if what you say is correct, Imran. Only the threat of an organized boycott of Civ 3 will force their hand. Why don't you embrace the power of the (organized) market?

[This message has been edited by techumseh (edited May 02, 2001).]

Imran Siddiqui · May 2, 2001, 02:38

How many responses at ALL are posted by Firaxis. In a year, there have been, perhaps a grand total of 50 Firaxis posts. They just don't post here, and I don't think they spend every waking hour at these forums as well. They will announce major things, and that is a major thing.

You can boycott if you want. Civ3 will still sell a million copies. Don't be so arrogent to think that you and you alone are the Civ fans out there.

Deathwalker · May 2, 2001, 03:55

What are they doing the biggest limitation to me making MODs was the 7 civs rule. They should at least have the option for people to use more than seven especially if they have a more powerful computer. We should not be limited because of others, You could simple have the systems power limit the number of civ. But with a limit of 14, as above this would in my opinion would reduce from the game.

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I have walked since the dawn of time and were ever I walk, death is sure to follow

Roman · May 3, 2001, 00:49

I hope this will be clarified in the next update.

OzzyKP · May 4, 2001, 13:44

If you don't like 7 civs (and no one does) then be sure to tell them that. If we flood Firaxis with e-mails they'll listen.

Some email addresses i've found:

askthecivteam@firaxis.com
jmorris@firaxis.com
dmagaha@firaxis.com

Everyone write them an e-mail, make them thoughtful and explain why you want more than 7 players. Do it and do it now. Sooner we get it in, the less likely it'll be set in stone already. A massive response to anything will certainly change their minds, now folks its time to e-mail like mad!!!

Ralf · May 4, 2001, 16:26

quote:

Originally posted by OzzyKP on 05-04-2001 01:44 PM
If you don't like 7 civs (and no one does) then be sure to tell them that. If we flood Firaxis with e-mails they'll listen.

If YOUR e-mail inbox becomes flooded, are YOU more likely to listen? Or are you more likely to be just pissed off and annoyed? Ask yourself that question...

Besides, some here talks talks about 8 civs + minor ones. We just aint 100% sure yet. Also, many Firaxians visits this site on a regular daily/weekly basis - so they already know what some (not all) thinks about this issue. Finally: Deciding how this game should be designed has nothing to do with some kind of Apolyton-based voting democracy. Its really their decision to make.

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited May 04, 2001).]