Ethnic Trees - Page 2

dervish · June 6, 2002, 23:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Gangerolf
interesting stuff mate, although bit irrellevant civ-game-wise?

for even more language related stuff you should check out this site:
http://www.ethnologue.com/country_index.asp

Thank you, Gangerolf. And if you are interested, here are some other links:

Ancient Scripts

KryssTal Language Families

dervish · June 6, 2002, 23:56

I think most of the countries have lots of minorities as happy faces on someone's city board menus, who got into other nations city boxes not only by conquest but also by culture flipping, or by both and when these faces become unhappy they become little chechnyas.

Language was the main vehicle of any civilization - remember those times when some other minorities were beaten up to speak the main tongue of the Empire. Or made to speak so in a different way. That's that.

ranskaldan · June 7, 2002, 00:20

Yeah, that's the point. That's why i wouldn't say that languages correspond well to ethnicity - there has been too many cases of ethnic groups or individuals changing languages due to conquest, assimilation, migration, etc.

dervish · June 7, 2002, 00:26

Quote:

Originally posted by ranskaldan
Yeah, that's the point. That's why i wouldn't say that languages correspond well to ethnicity - there has been too many cases of ethnic groups or individuals changing languages due to conquest, assimilation, migration, etc.

Which means what? That language is more correspondent to civilization than to ethnicity? And we still have problem of differentiating civilization from culture and that from nation and that from civilization, which you can find on "Civilization: culture or nation" thread. I am confused too, I don't know which one is which one.
We live in such imperfect underdone world!!

dervish · June 7, 2002, 00:33

Is there any resources on the web to track down relationship of American Indians among themselves, I find very scarce information about them.

ranskaldan · June 7, 2002, 00:43

The possible reason for that scarcity is because no one can track down the relationship between Native Americans?

well their language groups certainly seem to be much smaller.

dervish · June 7, 2002, 01:37

Another link to sites with languages and countries, where lots of useful swear words can be picked up

ranskaldan · June 7, 2002, 18:01

whoa!!

how many more links do you have up your sleeve?

dervish · June 10, 2002, 06:06

Quote:

Originally posted by ranskaldan
whoa!!

how many more links do you have up your sleeve?

Not too many now. Used to have more, there are still more that I don't know of.

Marquis de Sodaq · June 10, 2002, 09:06

Quote:

Originally posted by dervish
Is there any resources on the web to track down relationship of American Indians among themselves, I find very scarce information about them.

I've seen plenty, including one site that actually listed all known amerindian languages by language group, and the number of known speakers of that language. It even listed extict tongues. Some were really sad - 5 speakers, the youngest 70 years old, that sort of thing. Others are doing fine, with thousands of native speakers and many more with 2nd language knowledge.

sabrewolf · June 10, 2002, 09:43

Quote:

Originally posted by dervish
You are right. This ethnic tree can be triggered to action only, and should be, to my mind, when your population becomes sort of unhappy with your rule and wants to separate and secede from your tyranic Empire or whatever rule for a number of reasons (here you can throw any reason thinkable and unthinkable within the game framework). And then on the other hand they hate to join your neighbours, so they wouldn't join them either, well, unless they have very high culture compared to yours. So, if your neighbours are not so advanced in culture and in science, and they are pissed off by your rule, they secede and form a nation of their own with coulpe of cities on your border. I think there were cases like that in the past. Of course you will try to do everything to win their favour back, here the ethnic tree could also be of value, it will recommend new names of your confederate nation or whatever.

well, that's a great idea! and would be a wonderful change to the game... make it more realistic:
no culture flipping... more like an independence declaration. (lots of) military units can prevent them from going, but that causes even more riots and unhappiness (not just in the city). i'd call it 'suppressor weariness' (à la weariness). take tibet, palestine and other countries for example. occupation doesn't make it better.

each civilization can have 2-3 possible nationalities the independence fighters then get, best if that historicly based. it wouldn't have to be like the examples in the thread. it could also be something like algerians get independent from france (even though they aren't french at all). etc.

how about proposing dervish's idea to firaxis for an update or PTW?

kring · June 10, 2002, 09:52

The US, India, China (turn of last century and late this century), E Pakistan; are good examples of how strong military presence may not prevent rebellion. Sometimes strong military presence is actually more of an incentive to rebel than less. Check out the USA Constitution: No quartering of soldiers in your home, outside of a bad war situation. Why? Because it was forced on them before independence.

Good job, Dervish and others. Keep up the impressive work.

sabrewolf · June 10, 2002, 10:05

Quote:

Originally posted by kring
The US, India, China (turn of last century and late this century), E Pakistan; are good examples of how strong military presence may not prevent rebellion. Sometimes strong military presence is actually more of an incentive to rebel than less. Check out the USA Constitution: No quartering of soldiers in your home, outside of a bad war situation. Why? Because it was forced on them before independence.

Good job, Dervish and others. Keep up the impressive work.

yep, you're right in that point. the great british empire controlled half of the world, but englang itself is geographically small... so it was just a matter of time until they'd loose their influence. same with rome... they controlled more or less all of the (to them) known world... but some centuries later rome fell...

but i meant my comment more in smaller ranges e.g. the basks in spain. or look on over to east-timor. they wanted independence, malaysia (or at least pro-malay paramilitary) suppressed the voices with brute force... but now after some time they broke free.

i know, my examples aren't that great, but my point is:
"firaxis should add independence declaration instead of culture flipping (or even take both)"

kring · June 10, 2002, 10:09

Those are great examples. Consider East Timor is now independent. Some countries have given some of their subjects more independence (not total) to avoid revolutions.

I would like some kind of modified civil war, just like you suggest.

dervish · June 11, 2002, 01:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq

I've seen plenty, including one site that actually listed all known amerindian languages by language group, and the number of known speakers of that language. It even listed extict tongues. Some were really sad - 5 speakers, the youngest 70 years old, that sort of thing. Others are doing fine, with thousands of native speakers and many more with 2nd language knowledge.

Well, could you give us a link to them. It would be very interesting, you know.

dervish · June 11, 2002, 01:42

Quote:

Originally posted by sabrewolf

how about proposing dervish's idea to firaxis for an update or PTW?

Thank you, mate. The truth is that the country you come from actually is a very vivid example of how some Germans, French and Italian Helvetians forged new confederation - Switzerland after being kinda dissappointed by their respective main France, Germany and Italy rulers (correct me, if I am wrong). I think it is an excellent example of co-existence of so many nations in one country.

dervish · June 11, 2002, 01:49

Quote:

Originally posted by kring
Those are great examples. Consider East Timor is now independent. Some countries have given some of their subjects more independence (not total) to avoid revolutions.

I would like some kind of modified civil war, just like you suggest.

Yeah, it's true. Hopefully Firaxis lads think up things better than us.

sabrewolf · June 11, 2002, 02:39

Quote:

Originally posted by dervish
Thank you, mate. The truth is that the country you come from actually is a very vivid example of how some Germans, French and Italian Helvetians forged new confederation - Switzerland after being kinda dissappointed by their respective main France, Germany and Italy rulers (correct me, if I am wrong). I think it is an excellent example of co-existence of so many nations in one country.

not quite like that

some of the swiss cantons (like departements or states, just a hell lot smaller

) formed an alliance against the austrian rules which was the beginning of this country (1291). gradually one canton after the other joined it and afaik none of these belonged to any other empire, probably just controlled by some foreign people. (though, i might be wrong... swiss history seems a bit dull to me compared to others like the german history).

you're kind of right about the the dissappointment. a lot of german swiss are frightened of ze germanz (to use civ3 language: swiss are in awe of zem

) and french swiss don't really mind the french, but would hate to be called a french. italian swiss however don't like italians that much and that's the reason why the usually liberal canton of tessin votes right wing conservative as soon as it concernes europe *lol*

dervish · June 11, 2002, 22:31

Hmm..... It's very interesting. Thank you, sabrewolf, for this piece of information, frankly, I didn't know about that.

sabrewolf · June 12, 2002, 03:21

Quote:

Originally posted by dervish
Hmm..... It's very interesting. Thank you, sabrewolf, for this piece of information, frankly, I didn't know about that.

no problem, you can't know everything. some people from some places in the world think switzerland = sweden

Marquis de Sodaq · June 12, 2002, 12:44

Quote:

Originally posted by dervish
Well, could you give us a link to them. It would be very interesting, you know.

I knew this would be the follow up. Alas, I got a new OS on my pc since then, so my old links are no longer saved.

I'll take a little time to try to find them again. With luck, I'll post...

Fresno · June 12, 2002, 13:41

Quote:

Originally posted by sabrewolf
... or look on over to east-timor. they wanted independence, malaysia (or at least pro-malay paramilitary) suppressed the voices with brute force... but now after some time they broke free. ...

Malaysia? Don't you mean Indonesia?

sabrewolf · June 12, 2002, 17:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Fresno
Malaysia? Don't you mean Indonesia?

ofcourse, sorry...

dervish · June 13, 2002, 07:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq

I knew this would be the follow up. Alas, I got a new OS on my pc since then, so my old links are no longer saved.

I'll take a little time to try to find them again. With luck, I'll post...

Thank you. I will post here more trees on less significant ethnic and language groups I am afraid no one would be interested in them, 'cause their contribution to the world civilization is so small some of them are barely known to anybody. And put them on the front page of this thread, may be.

My God!! Got screwed up with putting more maps on the first page

Anodyne · June 14, 2002, 17:13

Quote:

Originally posted by dervish
Thank you. I will post here more trees on less significant ethnic and language groups I am afraid no one would be interested in them, 'cause their contribution to the world civilization is so small some of them are barely known to anybody. And put them on the front page of this thread, may be.

No, they are NOT any less significant than any other languages!

Of course, they might not have such a huge impact on world history, but it pisses me off everytime someone thinks (hey, I'm not saying you think so, I can see that you obviously don't) they would be inferior because of that. At least I would be extremely interested in them!

So far I've added every one of your links to my favourites' pages. I didn't know the Internet was so full of good stuff, usually I've gotten all my linguistic information from books...

Anodyne · June 14, 2002, 17:15

Oh, and the idea of ethnicity is great! So far I've sort of added it to Civ2 when I was playing it;

When ever I would get an advanced tribe or a settler out of a goody box, I would place a sign (§, ", #, ¤, etc...) after that city to indicate that the settler / tribe would be of another ethnicity, and when that city produced another settler that ended up building a city, that city would also be marked with the same sign...

Heh, I guess it was a bit nerdy, but at least I got some more fun out of an old game

kring · June 14, 2002, 19:22

I also would be interested in learning more, Dervish.

sabrewolf · June 17, 2002, 17:33

hey dervish.

i finally had time to study those maps and charts you posted. incredibly interesting!

great work!!!

and it's nice to know, that there are others out there who care about roots, authenticy, development and ethnic relations of civilisations!

if you have anymore, please post

dervish · June 19, 2002, 08:12

Thank you lads and maids

I'll try to quench your thirst for knowledge as much as I can. And my thirst needs to be quenched too.

dervish · June 19, 2002, 08:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Space05us
dervish you have a lot of time on your hands don't you? eiother that or you've been planning this

Oh, my!!! I almost omitted your remarks, sorry, now I see you almost look like Gorbachov.
But no, I don't have any spare time any longer. I wish I could