Firaxis: Will PtW be playable behind a NAT router? / in-game match-making

aebrahim · May 28, 2002, 22:48

A question for Firaxis people:

Will Civ3: PtW be playable if one or more people are behind a NAT router (such as a Windows ICS client, or something behind a hardware router) and do not have a routable IP? I will always have a routable IP, but at least one or more of the people I want to play with will not.

Will this setup be compatible with PtW, or will it require a routable IP from all players? I hope it doesn't, or it will disappoint a lot of avid gamers.

Please let us all know.

Lucilla · May 29, 2002, 16:33

Exactly my problem.
Thanks for posting that question

Franses · May 30, 2002, 04:06

Same question here. Several of my family members will play CIVIII MP and we would like to play at the same time using ICS. Will that be possible?

Jeffrey Morris FIRAXIS · May 30, 2002, 09:35

We're using gamespy for internet games, so it's whatever they require. My incomplete understanding is that you cannot host a game behind network address translation, but you can join. I'd check out a few other gamespy simultaneous launch games just to be sure.

Jeff

MarkG · May 30, 2002, 09:45

gamespy? news alert!!!

Solver · May 30, 2002, 09:55

I knew it 4 hours before you Markos!

Uhmm, Jeff, I don't think so, but I hope so. I got NAT at the moment, and have HUGE problems playing any games. If Civ 3 is playable behind NAT, though, great!

MarkG · May 30, 2002, 10:08

and how did you know it solver?

Solver · May 30, 2002, 10:17

PM Markos

.

Jeffrey Morris FIRAXIS · May 30, 2002, 10:59

Oh and just to be clear, there will be an in-game interface for match-making in addition to the Gamespy Arcade (a much cheaper way to get rid of those ads).

Jeff

Solver · May 30, 2002, 11:01

Thats good news Jeff, too

. If only GameSpy is OK with it.

Curious - can we still play without it? I guess yes, but who knows...

aebrahim · May 30, 2002, 11:56

I will of course not be on the same LAN segment as those behind NAT, so I will not have directly routable IPs to them.

Does anyone else have experience with this setup+Gamespy? Any comments?

aebrahim · May 30, 2002, 12:17

Will Civ3 really use only Gamespy Arcade, or will it work with GameSpy 3D as well? I remember paying for GameSpy 3D a few years back to use with Quake, and they promised me lifetime updates.

I'm kinda pissed off that they made something else that did the same thing, called it GameSpy Arcade, and made that their flagship product so that I'd have to pay again to use that. That kinda behaviour is underhanded. I doubt I'm going to pay to register GameSpy Arcade, because they'll probably pull the same thing all over again.

So, whats the word on this? Will it work with GameSpy 3D as well?

alva · May 30, 2002, 13:02

no!!! no gamespy

no!!!!

i hate gamespy, yuk
will the allseeingeye work for this asswell???

last time couple of times i used gamespy i allways had problems

Franses · May 30, 2002, 13:38

Thanks to Jeff again for providing an answer so quickly.

Unfortunately I have no idea whether this means we can play the game from a machine that uses ICS to get to the Internet. I understand Jeff does not know either

. Does anyone else know?

Franses · May 30, 2002, 13:46

Gamespy provides the following information:

Firewalls

GameSpy Arcade is 100% reliant on your Internet connection being fully functional. The same holds true for any games that you want to play online against other people. Firewalls and proxy servers are designed to block your Internet connection in order to minimize the chances that your computer will be accessed (or hacked!) by "unwanted visitors," but they also have the unfortunate side-effect of disabling a many of the things you might want to do online - like play games, for instance - since these activities depend on your PC making an unimpeded connection to other computers. Therefore, if you're using a firewall or proxy, Arcade will not function properly nor will you be able to download and install all of the files that you need in order to use the software to play games online.

Connecting to different places online requires access through "ports" in your PC's Internet connection, and firewalls and proxies will close certain ports for your protection. This is not always necessary, but you as the firewall/proxy owner are the only one who can open those ports. We can't do it for you - but we can give you some tips on how to configure your firewall / proxy to allow Arcade to work properly.

Unfortunately, in most cases, firewalls/proxies cannot simply be disabled in order to allow you to use Arcade and your game. Disabling the firewall / proxy won't open the necessary ports. It will simply shut down the firewall/proxy and leave the ports closed. Also, many factors may conflict with your firewall; Internet Connection Sharing, the use of more than one firewall, or your operating system may all cause conflicts that keep you from enjoying Arcade. To work around these issues, you will have to consult the manufacturer of your firewall/proxy.

What is a firewall or proxy?
Firewalls and proxies are software programs or pieces of hardware designed to protect your computer and/or network from Internet intruders. Some of these are:
Norton Internet Security
Tiny Personal Firewall
Zonealarm
Sygate (proxy)
Wingate (proxy)
Internet Connection Sharing aka ICS - provided by Windows 98SE and higher (proxy)
Linksys Routers (hardware firewall)
D-Link Routers (hardware firewall)
Cisco Routers (hardware firewall)
University Internet connections - Universities usually protect their networks with firewalls. In most cases these cannot be opened by you the user. You'll have to consult a technician at your University to see if a workaround is possible.

Working Around the Firewall / Proxy
If you are behind a firewall/proxy and are able to change its settings, Arcade needs the following TCP ports open in order to function:
6667 (IRC)
3783 (Voice Chat Port)
27900 (Master Server UDP Heartbeat)
28900 (Master Server List Request)
29900 (GP Connection Manager)
29901 (GP Search Manager)
13139 (Custom UDP Pings)
6515 (Dplay UDP)
More ports might also be necessary in order to run certain games. Remember, these are the ports that are recommended. It does not mean that your particular firewall will be easy to configure. Please consult your firewall/proxy manufacturer for detailed instructions. In reality, getting Arcade to work on certain restrictive networks may even be a little harder than opening these ports. DirectPlay games in all likelihood will not launch properly at all.

Special note to WindowsXP users: WindowsXP has a built-in firewall. If you are using 3rd party firewalls/proxies with WindowsXP, you will have to consult both the firewall/proxy developer and Microsoft to determine their compatibility with one another. You'll also need to speak to your game's developer in order to determine the game's compatibility with WindowsXP, its firewall and your 3rd party firewall/proxy.

Also, many broadband service providers are reporting an incompatibility between WindowsXP and some high-speed modems. Please consult your Internet Service Provider to ensure your WindowsXP compatibility with their modem and software.

This does provide hope if PTW does not require anything else.

kring · May 30, 2002, 14:26

Does this mean we will have to pay to play PTW MP over the internet? Aside from whatever costs incurred for having an ISP, if any?

I would like to play MP, but I am not going to pay extra for the privilege. I am sure some sites are willing to host it for free, if that is the case.

Will we have to use the Arcade if we want MP? Or will other options be allowed?

Lucilla · May 30, 2002, 14:27

Thanks for providing that info, Franses. I'm getting a clearer picture now.
As I don't know Gamespy (shame on me!), could somebody please explain how that works?
Do I have to use their service to play MP over the internet and do I have to pay for it?
If so, are there other service providers or could I even establish my own game session if I know the other people's IPs?
If I use Gamespy's service, will I be able to play with other Gamespy players, only?

MarkG · May 30, 2002, 14:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Lucilla
As I don't know Gamespy (shame on me!), could somebody please explain how that works?

you have a small utility that shows you which other people that want to play the same game with you and manages the connections between the two of you

Quote:

Do I have to use their service to play MP over the internet and do I have to pay for it?

as Jeff posted, you can use the in-game match-making which will be free

Quote:

If I use Gamespy's service, will I be able to play with other Gamespy players, only?

most probably yes

MarkG · May 30, 2002, 14:46

since Jeff's second message is not in huge letters and you probably came here form the first news item on the issue, i'm replying to this too

Quote:

Originally posted by kring
Does this mean we will have to pay to play PTW MP over the internet?

NO

there will be an in-game match-making interface which will be free

even with the Gamespy option, you can use their utility for free. You can pay a one-time fee of $20 to help in the further development of the utility and get rid of banners that are shown inside the utility before you start playing(and of course NOT inside the game!)

Franses · May 30, 2002, 15:27

Mark,

You may be right about the two different options but I expect that Jeff in his two posts meant that:
1. Firaxis will use gamespy
2. Firaxis will offer an in-game match making interface using gamespy but avoiding the adds.

Hope you are right though

. Certainly it that means that it will be easy to play using ICS.

aebrahim · May 30, 2002, 15:39

Firewalls aside, if at least the host has a real IP, will this work OK with NAT if the others don't and are not on the same LAN??

Franses · May 30, 2002, 15:48

Aebrahim,

I think it will, but at least you must have the authority to alter the settings. But... we will have to wait untill we can try it ourselves.

fred · May 30, 2002, 16:03

I use gamespy often and no you do not HAVE to pay for it.

If you pay you dont get adds, and you get the newer versions earlier.

Now I expect if they include Arcade support then one of two things will happen.

Either Firaxis gives you a free copy of Arcade (newest version), very unlikely.

Or

As Jeff said there will be an ingame launcher. The majority of multiplayer games have ingame launchers, but programs of gamespy are also supported. Programs like gamespy offer an advantage over most ingame launchers since they seem faster, they search for servers better, have more options about filters (which type of servers you are looking for) and are more streamlined.
Of course the ingame launcher will be fully functional, and really gamespy just adds fluff to your multiplayer experience. Most people could live with an ingame launcher with out ever really caring about the extra features other launchers have.

I have problems logging into multiplayer games that use MSN or another type of server. Games that run through Gamespy though I have found have less problems going to. I think Jeff was just pointing out the ease of use of Gamespy Arcade as a game launcher, which some may wanted to launch their multiplayer games.

MarkG · May 30, 2002, 16:47

franses, i think it will be just like fred described it here:

Quote:

As Jeff said there will be an ingame launcher. The majority of multiplayer games have ingame launchers, but programs of gamespy are also supported. Programs like gamespy offer an advantage over most ingame launchers since they seem faster, they search for servers better, have more options about filters (which type of servers you are looking for) and are more streamlined.
Of course the ingame launcher will be fully functional, and really gamespy just adds fluff to your multiplayer experience. Most people could live with an ingame launcher with out ever really caring about the extra features other launchers have.

the gamespy utility includes it's own browser, a buddy list with instant messenger abilties(i think) and other stuff like that

Solver · May 31, 2002, 04:03

Markos, you been having some GameSpy experience?

MarkG · May 31, 2002, 04:25

i just downloaded it, installed it and looked around. didnt try to start a game or anything....

Solver · May 31, 2002, 05:20

Which can mean it wouldn't work

.

jdd2007 · May 31, 2002, 12:16

first of all, what do u mean by ingame matchmaking

Quote:

Originally posted by MarkG
even with the Gamespy option, you can use their utility for free. You can pay a one-time fee of $20 to help in the further development of the utility and get rid of banners that are shown inside the utility before you start playing(and of course NOT inside the game!)

ingame advertising, civ-style:

"you have captured paris. would u like to rename the city Pepsi land?"

new city improvements: mcdonalds, starbucks and temples; courtesy of walmart

new unit: verizon wireless man. moves around the map saying, "can u hear me now?"

new wonder: disneyland

features: advisors badger u to try aol. (400 hours free!)

great leader units: the green giant, bazooka joe and the seven up guy

Lucilla · May 31, 2002, 13:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Solver
Which can mean it wouldn't work

.

True, I still don't know whether the routing through my firewall will work.
If I understand it correctly from Franses' post, I would have to open specific ports when using Gamespy. But do I have to configure port forwarding then as well? How do I do that if I get my internal IP via DHCP and don't know which IP to forward to? My firewall doesn't support specifying DNS names instead of IPs for port forwarding...

And what happens when I use the PtW built-in matching? Will the same ports be used or will they be random (worst case scenario, I'm not going to open up all my ports!)?

ydiiby · May 31, 2002, 14:47

Quote:

Originally posted by fred
I use gamespy often and no you do not HAVE to pay for it.

If you pay you dont get adds, and you get the newer versions earlier.

If you don´t pay (money) for a piece of sotware and this software has advertisements, you are paying with your privacy and security.