Politically incorrect or too sensitive?

[Grumbold]

Flicking through the screenshots we have seen so far I was struck by the thought that while we have so far seen only a very small glimpse of the final game, the scientific and military advisors depicted are both white males, as are all the unit graphics seen close up so far and the population "heads". Only the leader heads have shown any ethnic or sexual diversity. Perhaps this is all placeholder art. Perhaps all of these graphics will change if you play a nation from a different culture like Japan, or the Zulu. Perhaps I'm just being overly sensitive over what is, after all, just a game. Comments?

[Jarouik]

quote: Originally posted by Grumbold on 05-15-2001 06:57 AM Flicking through the screenshots we have seen so far I was struck by the thought that while we have so and one female leader for each tribe, although it certainly was politicallfar seen only a very small glimpse of the final game, the scientific and military advisors depicted are both white males, as are all the unit graphics seen close up so far and the population "heads". Only the leader heads have shown any ethnic or sexual diversity. Perhaps this is all placeholder art. Perhaps all of these graphics will change if you play a nation from a different culture like Japan, or the Zulu. Perhaps I'm just being overly sensitive over what is, after all, just a game. Comments?

It doesn't surprise me that I didn't notice that at first, but now that you mention it, it would indeed be nice to see different-looking people according to what civilization you are playing. In addition to being (albeit almost overly) politically correct, it would add to the feel that you are indeed leading a particular civilization, not just a generic nation of white men. On the other hand, since many of the important leaders in history have been male, I never quite understood why Civ 2 had to have one male and one female leader for each tribe; apparently Civ 3 will indeed only be having one leader per nation, some of them women, and perhaps in the modern times, some of the advisors in Civ 3 should be women. How about having the advisors male and of the same ethnicity in the beginning of the game, then be of both genders and more varied backgrounds in the modern times? All this is just fine-tuning the graphics, of course, so it is not all that important, but I recall that even the original Civ had advisors whose looks varied according to your government type.

[Seeker]

yeah the zulu rifleman should be black

[Adm.Naismith]

Interesting point.
I'm one of the man that think that focusing too much on politically correct words and flattening on blenched culture we often miss the more relevant fair opportunities and pratical culture enrichment.
That said, when realistic the game should consider enough diversity of genre and skin colours: the limit with CIV III advisors seems that Firaxis is using Team people Faces to joke with us. I forget how many ladies work at Firaxis, but they must obtain a place somewhere.

I know MS Office assistant aren't really popoular, but I'll like the (almost sure) similar ability to import different advisor. It don't change the game, but it's a nice touch.

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

[Grumbold]

quote: Originally posted by Jarouik on 05-15-2001 07:34 AM Since many of the important leaders in history have been male, I never quite understood why Civ 2 had to have one male and one female leader for each tribe;

I always thought it was so that any player could choose to be a male or female leader (supplying any name they wanted if the default was not what they wanted) and the game would refer to them with the correct pronoun. I know a handful of lady civvers and they liked this touch.

quote: apparently Civ 3 will indeed only be having one leader per nation, some of them women,

I must have missed that bit of news. A shame, even if finding a lady leader for some countries resulted in some less than perfect choices.

quote: and perhaps in the modern times, some of the advisors in Civ 3 should be women. How about having the advisors male and of the same ethnicity in the beginning of the game, then be of both genders and more varied backgrounds in the modern times?

I would be happy with a mix from the start but a noticable change after key events like womens sufferage and racial equality would be a nice touch too. Difficult to pull off a changing selection without indulging in a very Western centered worldview.

quote: All this is just fine-tuning the graphics, of course, so it is not all that important, but I recall that even the original Civ had advisors whose looks varied according to your government type.

The gameplay is absolutely the most important thing, bar none, but I know how irritating these little extras can be to some of my aquaintances. Playing a female leader of the Zulu you shouldn't have Joe-90 doing your science or trade report Similarly being able to shade the skin tones of all the units to approach each cultural standard. If Firaxis can get the balance right it will make the difference between just a good and a classic game.

[SerapisIV]

I think the cultural sensitivity took a back seat to Firaxis having a little fun with their game and putting themselves into it, thats why all the advisors are white males, they're the honchos at Firaxis. Screw the cultural sensitivity, if the guys who put the sweat into the game want their mug in the design and happen to all be the same gender and color, who cares. They could all be pink-polkadotted-hermaphadites for all I know, as long as the game is good. But I sure wouldn't mind the advisor pics being customizable, especially for the scenario makers.

[me_irate]

I was just thinking that since we were having only one leader per civ, we would be forced to play with queen elizabeth, and we wouldn't be able to create our own leader names and such. But this is not the case. I believe we will still be able to chose male and female and name our leader accordingly. My main thoughts on this is that we will never see ourself. So before in my thinking if i named him bob and he looked like lincon it would be kinda odd. but now i see that the leader heads are just for the purpose of seeing the other civ and thier reactions to you.

[Grumbold]

That accounts for the advisors, Serapis IV, and is quite valid as a reason provided it is clear to anyone who RTFM that there IS a reason. How about the population heads, the unit designs etc? Do the Zulu have to fight with negro impis but aryan everything else?
[This message has been edited by Grumbold (edited May 15, 2001).]

[Ralf]

quote: Originally posted by Seeker on 05-15-2001 07:56 AM yeah the zulu rifleman should be black

This reminds my of a story about Japanese video-gamers (or was it the importers - not sure) who a couple of years ago demanded that all the animated computer-people that populated the PC-game "Theme Park" (the older, original version) absolutely MUST have five fingers on their hands, instead of just three, that otherwise was/is the accepted norm within the cartoon-animation industri. Since the Japanese video-game market was/is such a big and important one for the game-developers (Bullfrog, I think it was), they had no other choice then to waste time on painstakingly converting the US/Europe 3-finger version into a 5-finger Japanese-version instead, amongst other translations. *Sigth!*

Besides above; I think we should distinguish between Empire leaders and Empire advisors. Empire leaders will be people & race-specific - thats a given.

About Empire-advisors: Well, I dont think its placeholder-art. All the advisors are key-members from the Civ-3 developing-team (at least I strongly suspect that). The follow-up question: Is it really SO terrible if they choose to add a "personal touch" by implementing advisor-images of themselves? I think its rather fun. Remember that playing Civ-3 is suppose to be lighthearted and humorous experience, as well as an exciting one. Dont take everything so drop-dead seriously. My only advise to Firaxis is that they should point that out clearly in the game-manual. So customers and reviewers get that.

[JosefGiven]

This reminds me of the first CtP.

Many of the later-tech units (like the war-walker) had female voices. Call me a bigot, but this just struck me as odd. The idea of a woman in a war-machine? History has shown us that it's only men that are thick-headed enough to pilot military vehicles that could so easily become firey tombs in the heat of battle...

I think it's fairly safe to say we'll see an even distribution of female citizens in our civ cities, mind. The female foreign advisor from Civ II was pretty cool, too (not to mention a fox).

So, I say plenty of women in Civ III, please; but bar diplomatic, or special units yet to be introduced, I think it's best to keep all military units male.

As for the white skinned units in predominantly black civs...hmm...Hang on! Is it safe to say there are fields of colour on each unit that are left out and filled in with the colour of the owning civ? (Just like the health/status shields that hang above the units in Civ II). Can't Firaxis leave skin tones blank, and 'colour them in' on the fly with the skin tone of their civ? Just a thought.

[St Leo]

Oh, please! We scenario makers are worried about there being too much unit art for easy customization and you guys are begging for even more.

History has shown us that it's only men that are thick-headed enough to pilot military vehicles that could so easily become firey tombs in the heat of battle...

1. Women were not given the chance to prove that they were just as stupid as men.

2. I am pretty sure Boudicca (Boadicea) kicked some posterior in battle.

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Leons Petrazickis (St. Leo)
http://aventine.cf-developer.net/minizigg/
petrazi@sprint.ca

[Theben]

Depending on what they do with unit art, I'd like to see a basic human frame (1 male, 1 female) that has the skin tone for each major world ethnic group. Then the necessary outer wear would be drawn over the body (this goes back to the "skins" idea).

It's be helpful for those of us who like to draw units but don't want to make crappy looking ones. Since they'll be 3-D images.

I'd also like to see background advisors, like civ1, who're racially identical to the leader you're speaking with. And pop heads that match your civ's race.

This isn't about PC whatever, I just think it would be a nice touch.

Can we leave the NAACP out of this game. In reality you cannot see the faces very well anyway. In CTP the only way you would know the Samurai is his clothing and not his skin color. There is also a Zulu warrior in CTP 2 Mod, and it is very hard to see his face.

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[Bereta_Eder]

quote: Originally posted by SerapisIV on 05-15-2001 12:51 PM A more important feature in my mind would be the All-Elvis civilization, goddamn it where's THE King as an advisor?

YEAH. The King must be in.

Paiktis22 at least you are consistence about Elvis. It was my generation that made Elvis the King. And yes I did like him a lot, and I have a large number of his songs. Did you know that Elvis made one his movies here in Napa many years ago. I’m not sure if my wife saw him, but I Sister-in-Law did see him. (I tried to call her to tell me which movie it was). You know he has been dead for 24 years and he is still the King of Rock and Roll, not bad for a dead person.
You know guys, History is a problem. We read a History book or we watch the History Channel about something that happen before we were born or when we were a small child it hard to really understand because we did not live it. But if you lived it or saw it happen than you just might understand what was going on.
So for some of our younger people who are 30 and under who might said throw the bum (Elvis) out, you really don’t have a clue what it was like to hear or see him sing.


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[Roman]

I really couldn't care less what colour or gender my advisors in a game assume. Lets not be too sensitive, people.

[ChrisShaffer]

Aside from the advisors, the citizens are all male too! Don't any women live in this world? A bit of cultural sensitivity wouldn't hurt a game that's promoting the introduction of culture as one of the best new features, eh?

[CWM]

Hate to sound racist but why is it that whenever anyone wants a portrayal of the world that is not all white-male they are labelled as "politically correct"

I'm not sure about this "advisor" thing if these are just the guys who wrote the game but beyond that isn't it common sense for a game that represents so many different people to have more than one skin tone for the in-game units. Thats not politically correct but just a true reflection of the world as it is.

Normally I would not say anything. I would just count "same skin tone"
as keeping the game simpler. It may seem odd to me to see a guy with light skin as a "zulu warrior" but it was no major issue. What I have a gripe with is the notion that somehow wanting the game to reflect "reality" in this one case is somehow wrong or being too sensitive.

Wonder what would be the reaction if tomorrow Firaxis announced all characters in the game would have black skin. Some of the people who are saying it dosen't matter and it's just being too sensitive would be the very ones saying that should change.

It reminds me of how people today will call a movie politically correct and unrealistic if you show more than one race (especially black) in a historical setting but they never say anything about older movies that had whites as everything from egyptians to orientals to indians.

[This message has been edited by CWM (edited May 16, 2001).]

[SerapisIV]

quote: Originally posted by Grumbold on 05-15-2001 11:54 AM That accounts for the advisors, Serapis IV, and is quite valid as a reason provided it is clear to anyone who RTFM that there IS a reason. How about the population heads, the unit designs etc? Do the Zulu have to fight with negro impis but aryan everything else? [This message has been edited by Grumbold (edited May 15, 2001).]

With regards to the pop heads, if you look at the screenshots screen, they're using the same heads as Civ2, the same exact pics, which says to me placeholder art. Which is good, because I agree, there should be asian people for asian cultures, white, for euro cultures, dark for the zulus, etc. and for customized games you should be able to select which you want. Or pop heads should come from a random pool of variable culture heads and they just randomly get shown, with no regards to which civ it is. Thats an option to make everyone happy, while satisfying no one.


A more important feature in my mind would be the All-Elvis civilization, goddamn it where's THE King as an advisor?

[Diablo, Bro. of Mephisto]

Oh my gosh. While most of us are worried about the AI, and Diplomacy problems, you guys are arguing about how the units skin color will look!

give me a break, actually, give Firaxis a break.

lol. I just think thats hilarious that you guys are bothered by it.

I mean, sure, I would like different looking units and stuff, like dark skin for the american indian units and such, but, you guys seem really bothered by it. lol.
[This message has been edited by Diablo, Bro. of Mephisto (edited May 16, 2001).]

[Gammaray fan]

Let Firaxis concentrate on bigger problems!
Besides, its not practicable. Sure, you could have black units for African civs, but then it becomes impossible. Everyone from Middle-Eastern civs, to South and SE Asian civs, to Pacific Island civs (Fiji) has brown skin! Grouping them all as 'brown' skin tone misrepresents them just as much as making them all white. Additionally, NE asians have pale skin (not pink mind you but 'white') and 'skin' tones get them grouped with Europeans just as is the case in civ2. Additionally, the English actually have 'pink' skin for the most part, but if Firaxis implement this, they will be faced with a barrage of complaints! (it always strikes me as interesting that the English pretend that they are 'white' like say the Polish are, while pretending that NE Asians were 'almost white' (real quote) or 'honorary whites', when plainly some had whiter skin than them!)Thus if the ethnic requirements are blatantly ignored, there will be less problems.

[Theben]

quote: Originally posted by Diablo, Bro. of Mephisto on 05-16-2001 12:54 AM I mean, sure, I would like different looking units and stuff, like dark skin for the american indian units and such, but, you guys seem really bothered by it. lol.

Actually I've SEEN what passes for "racial diversity" made by willing but not too able mod makers, both at Allard's site & at Civfanatics. And I've come to the conclusion that I'd rather have a professional artist draw the initial artwork, rather than let some 14 year-old get out his Photoshop paintgun.

[Theben]

quote: Originally posted by Gammaray fan on 05-16-2001 01:58 AM Let Firaxis concentrate on bigger problems! Besides, its not practicable. Sure, you could have black units for African civs, but then it becomes impossible. Everyone from Middle-Eastern civs, to South and SE Asian civs, to Pacific Island civs (Fiji) has brown skin! Grouping them all as 'brown' skin tone misrepresents them just as much as making them all white. Additionally, NE asians have pale skin (not pink mind you but 'white') and 'skin' tones get them grouped with Europeans just as is the case in civ2. Additionally, the English actually have 'pink' skin for the most part, but if Firaxis implement this, they will be faced with a barrage of complaints! (it always strikes me as interesting that the English pretend that they are 'white' like say the Polish are, while pretending that NE Asians were 'almost white' (real quote) or 'honorary whites', when plainly some had whiter skin than them!)Thus if the ethnic requirements are blatantly ignored, there will be less problems.

That's why I said "major ethnic groups". Obviously we won't have every single one, but one for Europeans, one for Africans, Asians, S. & N. American natives should just about cover it.

[Adm.Naismith]

quote: Originally posted by SerapisIV on 05-15-2001 10:03 AM I think the cultural sensitivity took a back seat to Firaxis having a little fun with their game and putting themselves into it, thats why all the advisors are white males, they're the honchos at Firaxis. Screw the cultural sensitivity, if the guys who put the sweat into the game want their mug in the design and happen to all be the same gender and color, who cares.

I already underlined that:

quote: the limit with CIV III advisors seems that Firaxis is using Team people Faces to joke with us. I forget how many ladies work at Firaxis, but they must obtain a place somewhere in the game.

Aren't women involved in Firaxis? No wife? No girlfriends? They surely have mothers, at least!

Units are really too small to need any gender or skin difference, but advisors should. Once again, I don't care if they don't fit from start, as long as Firaxis give us the ability to import more. And a couple fresh, downloadable for free, some months after game launch. They'll look nice near Desktop theme and Screensaver page of Firaxis site

[markusf]

quote: Originally posted by Seeker on 05-15-2001 07:56 AM yeah the zulu rifleman should be black

People on this thread are just to funny. On one side you have lots of people screaming about civ specific units, and at the same time supporting racial charactorists/civ. So if the USA was renamed to Zululand would all the people suddenly be black? If i start in the northern hemisphere does my civ suddenly start out white? IT seems a lot of these discussions are started by people who have nothing better to do then sit around all day reading these forums, and trying to find something wrong with the development of civ3

[lord of the mark]

quote: Originally posted by ChrisShaffer on 05-15-2001 12:33 PM Aside from the advisors, the citizens are all male too! Don't any women live in this world? A bit of cultural sensitivity wouldn't hurt a game that's promoting the introduction of culture as one of the best new features, eh?

the citizens are all male - not mine!!!! or is it a TOT thing ?


LOTM

[lord of the mark]

quote: Originally posted by markusf on 05-16-2001 11:00 AM People on this thread are just to funny. On one side you have lots of people screaming about civ specific units, and at the same time supporting racial charactorists/civ. So if the USA was renamed to Zululand would all the people suddenly be black? If i start in the northern hemisphere does my civ suddenly start out white? IT seems a lot of these discussions are started by people who have nothing better to do then sit around all day reading these forums, and trying to find something wrong with the development of civ3

i dont think its the same people markusf. I dont care what color the pictures are, theyre just pictures. Trivia.

The notion that any civ can evolve to anything depending on location and strategy is OTOH, the basic lesson of Civ. It is the essence of civ.

LOTM

[Vrank Prins]

Most people here are talking about the skincolour of units.

What about the colour of the people shown in the cityscreens.

For instance:
- what if you add a "white" settler of your own CIV, to a "black" city you've conquered, to make that city grow;
- Or what if slaves (which is a CTP-feature I would like to be introduced in CIV) are added to one of your cities.
Will the cityscreen give a multicural impression then ?!.

Besides, could having a multicultural (city)population lead to racial clashes in a situation of civil unrest or uproar.

Though I like the multicultural idea, I can't see how Firaxis should do that.

[MrFun]

Just one minor comment -- Civilization II DID have one female advisor -- she was the advisor on reputation, I believe.

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The Martians are out there somewhere, but where? Let's shoot lasers out into space until they shoot back.

[Jarouik]

quote: Originally posted by CWM on 05-16-2001 12:43 AM Hate to sound racist but why is it that whenever anyone wants a portrayal of the world that is not all white-male they are labelled as "politically correct" I'm not sure about this "advisor" thing if these are just the guys who wrote the game but beyond that isn't it common sense for a game that represents so many different people to have more than one skin tone for the in-game units. Thats not politically correct but just a true reflection of the world as it is. Normally I would not say anything. I would just count "same skin tone" as keeping the game simpler. It may seem odd to me to see a guy with light skin as a "zulu warrior" but it was no major issue. What I have a gripe with is the notion that somehow wanting the game to reflect "reality" in this one case is somehow wrong or being too sensitive. Wonder what would be the reaction if tomorrow Firaxis announced all characters in the game would have black skin. Some of the people who are saying it dosen't matter and it's just being too sensitive would be the very ones saying that should change.

When saying it would be politically correct, I certainly did not mean it in a derogatory sense. I find reflecting the world as it is, having different people show in the game, would be a great idea indeed. Apparently the word 'politically correct' now has such negative connotations that you cannot use it in a positive sense... but that is what I meant, and I think depicting reality in this sense in the game would be a very good thing - if calling it politically correct meant something else, I apologize, since apparently I do not know the English language and American culture well enough to tell that the term would be interpreted in a negative sense. As regards the game, barring the inclusion of different skin tones etc., I think they should make the faces colored somewhere between black and white, so the same people graphics would fit any nation.