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Old June 5, 2002, 05:02   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Asher
Look at Alberta's expenses vs. BC's expenses. Tell me that it's only lean because of oil revenue.
Okay, it is only lean because of oil revenues.

The Alberta government are big spenders compared to BC and Ontario.

Alberta spends $6,455 per capita
B.C. spends $6,219 per capita
Ontario spends $5,545 per capita

All figures based on 2001-02 budgets and 2001 census.

Alberta expenditures: $19.2 billion
population: 2.974 million

B.C. expenditure: $24.3 billion
population 3.907 million

Ontario expenditure: $63.270 billionh
populaiton 11.410 million
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Old June 5, 2002, 05:20   #32
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Old June 5, 2002, 12:48   #33
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Tingkai,

Give it up! Spare us all the dreary excuse making and acknowledge that in the past 15 or so years Alberta has done a commendible job of using its oil revenues to invest in other areas to help diversify its economy. Alberta should be held as an example of what to do with resource revenues, not attacked because it has them.
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Old June 5, 2002, 12:58   #34
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David James:

Maybe it all comes down to jealousy on Tingkai's part.

Alberta has had a consistent right-wing government for ages, and we're benefitting from that with wise investments like the Heritage Fund which effectively stabilizes the province from the typical boom/bust, how we're soon to be debt free, and have lowered the tax burden for all Albertans (rich or poor), while at the same time creating the healthiest economy and best area for businesses to invest and grow.

Alberta is more than oil, and I don't think you'll realize that until you see how nicely Alberta will ride out the next time oil prices drop to $10/barrel (Which isn't going to happen anytime soon, what with poor US/Saudi relations and possible Iran attacks and Iraq, etc)

(PS: The low budget figures you used in BC are due to the quasi-conservative government that is now in power, and has cut government spending left and right shaving billions off of the budget -- try looking at their budget from 1999 or so when they had the NDP. And isn't it amazing that BC's deficit is still twice what Alberta takes in in oil revenue? Surely that should sound alarms in your head telling you that it's quite obvious Alberta doesn't have a healthy budget just because of oil.)
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Old June 5, 2002, 13:32   #35
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"quasi-conservative"

Actually, I was pleased to see that we are not in as bad shape as I thought.

It might be interesting to look at all the advantages that both Ontario and Quebec have due to their size, economic clout and privileged place in Confederation and see what they have to show for it.
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Old June 5, 2002, 13:38   #36
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Here are some interesting figures about how Alberta's economy has diversified, Tingkai:


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Old June 5, 2002, 18:38   #37
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What has it got to show for it?

Hell, Alberta seems like the best Canadian province of them all from down here. We'll take it from you if you don't like it .
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Old June 5, 2002, 18:44   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
What has it got to show for it?

Hell, Alberta seems like the best Canadian province of them all from down here. We'll take it from you if you don't like it .
western canada should seperate from the east!

I think canada will join the states sooner or later. Hell canada is pretty much a part of the USA as it stands, why not join it and get all the bennifits?
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Old June 5, 2002, 18:53   #39
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With each passing day it seems more desirable to become a US Territory like Puerto Rico rather than stay a Canadian province.

If Chretien actually ratifies the Kyoto agreement, I guarantee Canada it'll be a NEP 2.0 for Alberta. We will not be pleased, in the slightest.
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Old June 5, 2002, 18:56   #40
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Originally posted by Asher
If Chretien actually ratifies the Kyoto agreement, I guarantee Canada it'll be a NEP 2.0 for Alberta. We will not be pleased, in the slightest.
You guys got NEP 1 repealed by voting in Mulroney, correct? (hazy on this)

What sort of leverage will you use to get Kyoto repealed if it's ratified?
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Old June 5, 2002, 19:05   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
You guys got NEP 1 repealed by voting in Mulroney, correct? (hazy on this)
Here's a fun article on the NEP: http://www.nationalpost.com/content/...11699oil2.html

Some excerpts:
Quote:
The NEP was billed as a nationalistic, fiscally responsible document. In reality, it was the biggest and most unfair tax grab in Canadian history.

For the first time, new federal tax royalties were imposed on all domestic production and exports alike.

Billions of dollars worth of these taxes were then unfairly diverted to Canadian-owned oil companies only in the form of exploration grants. Ottawa was turning the business into a system of political handouts. Worst of all, the feds expropriated without compensation a sizeable percentage of discoveries or future finds on leased lands retroactively. The U.S. Congress reacted angrily.

Back home in Alberta, tempers flared. Premier Peter Lougheed launched litigation that eventually struck down the export taxes and other regulations because they were illegal under the Constitution.

It's interesting to note that Ottawa was run by the same spendthrifts in charge of Canada today.
Quote:
Western oilmen turned to the Tory leader, Brian Mulroney, and his loosely structured coalition in the election of 1984. This alliance included alienated westerners, Ontario's "Big Blue" Progressive Conservatives and Quebec's nationalists willing to be federal Tories. Mulroney, elected in 1984, delivered to all factions.

Westerners were over-represented in his cabinet and Alberta's pet peeves were addressed: The NEP was gutted, oil and natural gas prices were deregulated, free trade with the U.S. was negotiated, Petro-Canada was privatized and foreign ownership restrictions were virtually eliminated.

The arrangement worked, until Mulroney and his Tories sold out the West. His cabinet diverted a multibillion-dollar maintenance contract to Bombardier in Montreal from Winnipeg's Bristol Aerospace after the western-based company had won the contract fair and square in a sealed-tender bidding process.

Immediately after that fiasco, Albertans and other westerners fled the Tories and turned to Reform leader Preston Manning.

And the rest, as they say, is history.
So yes, Mulroney started his career off great by ditching the NEP, among other things.

Then he went and f*cked it all up. Thus the birth of the Reform party (Canadian Alliance) now.

Quote:
But, these days, the Liberals' proudest accomplishments are the policies put forward back in 1993 by Reform: free trade, a balanced budget and a tougher stance toward Quebec separatists.

It's also interesting that two Albertans run the country's conservative parties: Manning and Tory Joe Clark. They are both attempting to stitch together a coalition, as Mulroney did, to unite the right and defeat the Liberals.

The jury's out on that one, but there's little doubt that Alberta's influence will continue to be disproportionate, thanks to its oil wealth and the aptitude of its citizens to fight against adversity and to bankroll their beliefs.
Quote:
What sort of leverage will you use to get Kyoto repealed if it's ratified?
The way I see it, if he passes it, it could go two ways:
1) People all over Canada, especially Alberta and probably Ontario as well, will watch gas prices go through the roof, watch the price of their cars go through the roof, will watch their heating bills rise, will watch the GDP fall, and will watch the unemployment rate rise accordingly as many of the companies flee to the US. At which point, everyone will finally decide they're sick of the Liberal government and their perpetual screwups and try the Canadian Alliance on for size (who will campaign and win on the platform of ditching Kyoto).
2) Referendum...
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Old June 5, 2002, 19:12   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Asher


The way I see it, if he passes it, it could go two ways:
1) People all over Canada, especially Alberta and probably Ontario as well, will watch gas prices go through the roof, watch the price of their cars go through the roof, will watch their heating bills rise, will watch the GDP fall, and will watch the unemployment rate rise accordingly as many of the companies flee to the US. At which point, everyone will finally decide they're sick of the Liberal government and their perpetual screwups and try the Canadian Alliance on for size (who will campaign and win on the platform of ditching Kyoto).
2) Referendum...

Our gas prices are still a good 3 or 4 times lower then europes. Its only a matter of time before they sky rocket here. The simple solution is to ratify it and then just back companies like ballard power etc. To hell with oil
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Old June 5, 2002, 19:14   #43
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Originally posted by markusf
Our gas prices are still a good 3 or 4 times lower then europes. Its only a matter of time before they sky rocket here. The simple solution is to ratify it and then just back companies like ballard power etc. To hell with oil
That logic doesn't really make sense.

The reason they're so high in Europe was insane petrol taxes, coupled with transportation difficulty and costs.

We don't really have that in Canada. Plus, we're far more dependent on cars than Europe, considering how much space we have.

You also have to look at the ramifications of higher fuel costs. Transportation costs across the board rise, which means anything not produced in the same city you live in will most likely cost more due to the transportation issues, etc.

At the same time, since the US is not ratifying Kyoto many companies will not find it worth the effort to comply with Kyoto and simply move their operations a few hundred Kilometers south to work in the US... Will cause unemployment to rise, in addition to increasing costs of living. What a wonderful combo.
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Old June 5, 2002, 19:50   #44
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In other words, you have no idea how to get Kyoto repealed if it were to be ratified. Option one just assumes that you're right and that the fallout from Kyoto would push Ontario into your laps, and option two is sort of silly and probably wouldn't even be brought up in serious political discussion.

Maybe Kyoto would be enough to make the Alliance swallow serious concessions for the PCs in order to actually unite the two parties, since that would be the only way to get an Alberta-friendly gov't into power?
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Old June 5, 2002, 19:55   #45
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KrazyHorse -- what do you want us to say?

Chretien has so much power and Alberta so little that if Kyoto does pass, and if Alberta is still being shafted & ignored, the only real solution as I see it is to get the hell out -- hold a referrendum and become a US Territory.

And believe me, unlike Quebec, when Alberta has a referrendum mostly everyone in the province is going to be beyond enraged with Ottawa. It'll be the last straw, so to speak.
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Old June 5, 2002, 19:57   #46
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That's silly, Asher, and isn't politically feasible.

I'm asking if the people of Alberta would swallow a watered down Alliance/PC union to repeal Kyoto.
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Old June 5, 2002, 20:19   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
That's silly, Asher, and isn't politically feasible.
Why not?

Quote:
I'm asking if the people of Alberta would swallow a watered down Alliance/PC union to repeal Kyoto.
The PC union wouldn't do much at all. Look at how many votes they got...

How many PCs did Alberta elect last election in the first place?

My question for you is will the NDP unite with the Natural Law party to gain more votes?
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Old June 5, 2002, 20:21   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Asher

Why not?
Take a poll...
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Old June 5, 2002, 20:27   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Take a poll...
KrazyHorse, I think you're grossly underestimating how enraged Albertans are once you play with their oil money. It's the same type of reaction when you play with Alberta's oil money as when you play with an elderly lady's breasts.

We don't like it when people mess with it.

The NEP was the first straw, and ever since then most Albertans have had a huge dislike for the Liberals.

Now they're insisting on signing the Kyoto agreement, which will probably have a similar effect on Alberta as the NEP is.

Do you honestly think Alberta will continue to be content? More money leaves our province into federal coffers than enters, the government has consistently played with our "lifeblood" in stupid, stupid ways based on their own agenda, and has politically ignored Alberta for over a decade.

If Kyoto passes, can you please tell us the purpose of staying in Canada? I can't seem to see it.

And the last poll results regarding the federal government of ours that I've seen said 69% of Canadians think the Federal Government is corrupt. If 69% of CANADIANS do, imagine how high this number is in Alberta.
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Old June 5, 2002, 20:31   #50
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Please cite some sort of poll that would demonstrate this isn't only a viewpoint of the looney right Ameriphile sector (which you're an inhabitant of)...
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Old June 5, 2002, 20:34   #51
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Please cite some sort of poll that would demonstrate this isn't only a viewpoint of the looney right Ameriphile sector (which you're an inhabitant of)...
There are no polls.

You don't need a poll to see that Alberta REALLY hates the Federal government.

Why else would we not elect them on a constant basis?

Just because there aren't any polls doesn't mean the movement doesn't exist, KrazyHorse.

Perhaps King Jean is taking your approach on this and thinking Alberta will put up with all of the **** you guys throw at us. Why would we do that? Hmm?
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Old June 5, 2002, 20:36   #52
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Why wouldn't there be a poll if movement was important enough?
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Old June 5, 2002, 20:43   #53
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Because all of the major political leaders don't want to separate. They insist we must work with Canada, and set up firewalls to protect us from your greedy little hands instead.

But quite clearly, if Kyoto passes their opinions will change.
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Old June 5, 2002, 20:51   #54
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I've found a poll from January 2001.

http://www.westernhomerule.ca/arguments.html

Quote:
In late January of 2001, a COMPAS poll found that 43% of Albertans said they are growing less satisfied with the Canadian constitutional arrangement. No fewer than 47% said they want constitutional changes to limit Ottawa’s control over provincial government policy and on how much Ottawa can take from Alberta taxpayers. (Other polling has found that Saskatchewanians feel more alienated from Ottawa than any other province.)
On the other hand, the poll found that only 7% of Albertans would want to separate from Canada (as against 28% of Quebecers).
“Alberta has a great deal of frustration [with Ottawa],” Roger Gibbins, president of the Canada West Foundation, said at the time. “It boils up, but there’s no outlet.”
So in January 2001, only 7% wanted to separate.

BUT

Quote:
In July of 2001, an Ipsos-Reid poll found that the percentage of westerners who favor immediate separation from Canada was 11% (see preceding Item re 7% figure). On the other hand, 26% say they would favor separation in 10 years if the federal government doesn’t undergo a major facelift by then.
Notice how the figure is steadily growing?

Right now most people are taking a "wait and see" approach. Mainly the next election. If the Liberals get in AGAIN, and Kyoto passes, the 47% "dissatisified" will most likely start leaning towards separation because it doesn't appear to be likely for anything to change.
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Old June 5, 2002, 21:02   #55
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Those figures seem to be what I thought they'd be. If it hits 30% I'll start to be worried, since we've lived with lot worse than that for the last 30 years.

7 years ago, in the best poll of all, separation got a 49.5% rating here...

What particular constitutional changes do you feel would abate alienation? Would this be the one that gives every province equal number of seats in more powerful Senate, irrepective of population? Is there something else you feel would help?

By the way, I'm getting a little tired of you claiming that I've "thrown **** at you", given that I'm not a member of the government and have never voted for a ruling federal government's party. If it's lighthearted, then I'm fine with it (as my redneck Albertan comments are - well, usually ), but I'm getting a bad vibe from you right now...
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Old June 5, 2002, 21:10   #56
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Those figures seem to be what I thought they'd be. If it hits 30% I'll start to be worried, since we've lived with lot worse than that for the last 30 years.
I wish Quebec would separate, and see how well they do without our transfer payments. Maybe then Canada could go unilingual too.

Quote:
What particular constitutional changes do you feel would abate alienation? Would this be the one that gives every province equal number of seats in more powerful Senate, irrepective of population? Is there something else you feel would help?
An equal number of seats in a more powerful Senate is a huge step in the right direction.

I believe there should also be a cap on per capita contribution to equalization payments. Right now there's far too much money leaving Alberta to fund the same provinces for decades on end which never show any signs of real improvement. It's really disheartening.

And I'd also support the ability for individual provinces to "opt out" of Kyoto.

Quote:
By the way, I'm getting a little tired of you claiming that I've "thrown **** at you", given that I'm not a member of the government and have never voted for a ruling federal government's party.
The government you support would be far worse for Alberta.

Quote:
If it's lighthearted, then I'm fine with it (as my redneck Albertan comments are - well, usually ), but I'm getting a bad vibe from you right now...
Well, you tend to take the position of defending the government's action, and in doing so you've told me that you don't necessarily disagree with it.

And if you don't disagree with it, then you might as well agree with it and support it.
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Old June 5, 2002, 21:14   #57
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Asher, I can't remember the last time I was actually mad at you during one of these discussions. You seem to fly off the handle pretty easily when it comes to this subject, though...
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Old June 5, 2002, 21:18   #58
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Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Asher, I can't remember the last time I was actually mad at you during one of these discussions.
Does this mean you're mad at me now, or not?

Quote:
You seem to fly off the handle pretty easily when it comes to this subject, though...
If you put any true conservative through the hell of Canadian Federal Politics they'd become quite frustrated pretty quickly as well
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Old June 5, 2002, 21:38   #59
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No, it doesn't mean I'm mad at you. Just constantly surprised at the great bursts of feeling you come out with...
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Old June 5, 2002, 21:38   #60
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Oh Asher

The ideology of youth . . . quoting facts and figures about events you were never part of and passing judgements on things you have never experienced ( note: citing what your father has done does not help your arguments) . . . But there were several interesting points so I thought I would address a couple of things you said in the various threads and just make a few random observations as well



1. Do you realize how many people that live in Alberta come from other provinces and still have a strong emotional attachment to those provinces and would not like the idea of their frinds and families being in a separate country ?? I recently came here and I like the low taxes but ceasing to be Canadian I work at a firm with about 100 people in Calgary-- my rough estimate of the number that were born in Alberta would be less than 25 and I think thats typical-- do you seriously expect these people would abandon Canada over MONEY ???

2. Your arguments seem to be generally to the far right and ignore anything other than the financial aspects of things. For example, the main reason the BC offshore has not been developed (oil) has been environmental concerns while yopu seem to think it was some sort of leftist mismanagement. I'm no fan of the NDP but taking some care of the environment does not necessarily strike me as a bad thing

3. You are right on a number of things in this and the other thread-- Alberta does pay out a lot in transfers ( and its irrelevant whether its direct or indirect as you too argued over there) and a large reason that the eastern provinces lead the country in growth is the simple statistical fact that it is easier to have a greater percentage gain from a smaller economy.

4. However, to attribute Alberta's wealth to good government is somewhat misleading-- its easy to govern when there are billions in direct royalties coming in

5. To attribute some of the smaller percentages I have seen attribute to the oil and gas industry is again misleading. Apart from direct royalties there are the multitudes of spin-offs that come from having the industry headquartered in calgary-- I am a petroleum lawyer and if the oil and gas industry dries up here (hypothetical) then I doubt I would be here for long. . . Alberta is working hard at diversification but Calgary is still very much an oil town.

6. There are many things about Canadian transfer payments I do not like and the federal clawback as poorer provinces get ahead is one of them. For example, on Hibernia royalties the province loses something like 80 cents from transfers for every dollar of royalty receiver. Thats why the province is quite frankly not that interested in royalties on projects like Hibernia or the nickle mine in Labrador-- they get so little out of the royalties that they bargain them away for a few more jobs.

7. All your arguments seem based on money and a country and the issues they face are much more than that. Its all well and good to debate transfer payments and tax rates but when the reality of an unemployment statistic is a 53 year old fisherman, who after 35 years in an industry working back breaking hours, faces having to move from his town of 200 . . . unable to sell his house etc because the fishery has collapsed. . . . well lets just say its not an easy decision-- then to have some 18 year old silver-spoon Albertan kid assume he is LAZY-- not good

8. Other provinces share rants at the federal government. The Chrestien administration seems tired and old. But more generally , I know in newfoundland there is a general feeling that the fishery gets short shrift and was bartered away to to foreigners in deals designed to help Ontario and Quebec industry.

9 Statistics do often reflect the truth-- Newfoundland is booming or more accurately, St. John's and area is booming while smaller fishing communities are still hurting . . So the economy is a bit of a contradiction with clear winners and losers.


Thats all for now. I could have gone through that other fourteen page thread and responded to more stuff but I just wanted to say that I'm encouraged to see a young person with so much interest in the future of this country. I just wonder if your attitudes will be so cut and dried 10 years from now , particularly if you or Alberta face economic hardship. because when I listen to you Asher, I hear facts and figures and " its our oil" but I never hear anything about what a country or a province is other than the MONEY. I hope my country will always be more than that. AS for you, perhaps you will emigrate to the States as , after all, pay is higher and taxes are lower.
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