View Poll Results: Should there be a limited Senate. Yes or No.
Yes. We need a Senate to protect against tyrany. 19 37.25%
No. We don't need no stinkin' Senate. 32 62.75%
Voters: 51. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old June 16, 2002, 02:08   #1
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A Senate for the People
OK. We are here to decide whether there should be a formal Senate to serve the people of this great nation.

It could be very limited, or it could be made into a monster. Those are questions for later polls. What powers the Senate should be given will be determined by the people. The composition and function of any Senate is also a question for future polls. However, I propose that those powers should never over-ride those already enjoyed by the President and the Ministers for the conduct of the game. The Senate should in no way interfere with the conduct of the game. Rather it should be a servant in governing ourselves.

Some useful suggestions have revolved around deciding disputes about polls and elections, as well as giving opinions in cases of disputes between the constitution and the govt.

It has been proposed that the Senate may function as an unofficial forum for the citizens of this great nation regardless of official status or not. That I am sure it will. The question is whether it should be given official status and powers or not.

BTW. The Executive and the people should not hold this poll up as a reason for not beginning the game. The final fate of the Senate is not necessary to begin.

This poll will last 5 days.

Link to the Senate discussion here. It is quite lengthy. Sorry.
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Old June 16, 2002, 08:02   #2
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If the result of the poll on impeacment dont change we have enough power lying with the people to 'correct' our gouverment

Better let the senate remain unofficial as we have enough elections and polls right now
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Old June 16, 2002, 08:13   #3
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I currently refuse to vote, as the senate idea, as it's being discussed, is very unclear and vague. The idea has some great merits and some atrocious flaws, and I won't vote until it is cleared.

BTW, NYE, I think you should ask Markos to close this thread, and post a new poll which isn't rigged. It's extremely easy to manipulate answers with the way questions are asked. Just see the 2 contradictory polls about military commanders.
In your options, the favorable option to the senate will attract even mildly partisans of a senate, while the negative answer will only attract diehard opponents, who think a senate is "stinking".

You should post options like :
"1. Yes, we need a senate to protect against tyranny
2. No we don't need another layer of bureaucraty"
(these ideas seem to be the most pros and cons)

Or options like :
"1. Yes we need a senate"
"2. No, we don't need a senate"
(Which are extremely neutral)

The thread title isn't neutral at all. "A senate for the people". If a diehard opponent did make the poll before you, he would probably say "A senate for petty priviledgees" or something. A neutral question would be "do we need a senate ?" or something.

If you close this poll and create a new, neutral one, following my advice (or simply common sense), then I won't consider the poll to be rigged. Currently, I consider this poll as irrelevant.
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Old June 16, 2002, 08:49   #4
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I say no. A Senate, in any form, will cloud the purpose of the game, and should it 'stand up for the people's rights', that assumes that the people can't already do that (but they can), and would thereby take away more of the people's power to make decisions.
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Old June 16, 2002, 09:14   #5
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I think the idea is ok, but what this poll is really asking is "Should the Senate be official?" and I don't think it should, though I wound't mind an unofficial one.
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Old June 16, 2002, 15:03   #6
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We ARE the Senate.
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Old June 16, 2002, 16:33   #7
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I am positive to a Senate, but honestly, I think this forum is the Senate, so as I see it, we don't need any poll on this!
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Old June 16, 2002, 21:23   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by skywalker
We ARE the Senate.
Precisely. I think the roughly 100 members (exluding the ministers and pres/vp) all with equal opinion values and votes counts as a senate. We dont need any extraneous mechanism to make things even more heavily beauracratic. An extra senate would do the same things the forum already does, it'd just be silly and superficial.
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Old June 17, 2002, 01:37   #9
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Spiffor,

Given the results to date I think it would be worse for me to attempt to invalidate this poll.

I never intended to skew the results, and I do not believe that my wording has done so. I will however keep your suggestions in mind if I make forays into poll making again.

The people are wise. They will reach the correct decision for the whole.
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Old June 17, 2002, 02:49   #10
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I voted no, because I too believe that we already have a Senate and that every citizen is already in it.

Most modern democracies don't call a popular vote every time there is an important decision to be made. Instead, the people elect representatives for the Senate, and the Senate pretty much handles the rest on the people's behalf.

So, the citizens in this game are really both citizens and senators.
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Old June 17, 2002, 02:58   #11
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I think many people misunderstand. No mention has been made of reducing the power of the President, or ministers, or of the people through polls.

However, settling disputes is a thing best done by a small number of appointed or elected individuals. If you submit heated disputes to the court of public opinion, you will have very heated disputes.

There are already disputes over polls arising.
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Old June 17, 2002, 04:17   #12
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This is one of democracy's shortcomings...

People are different, and have different opinions and different ideas on how the systems should work. So, by making the same system and the same rules apply to everyone, we are in effect ensuring that there will be disputes. In any society, there will always be people who disagree with established policies, there's just no way around that. You can't please everyone all at the same time, and so politics is a often a lot about deciding who gets the shaft this time...

You just have to try not to shaft the same people too many times in a row...

Sure, there are times when you feel that a single person or a small group would have been better suited to make decisions and get things settled once and for all, and yes, this is probably true in many - if not most - cases.

On the other hand, no one is wise enough - or good enough - to be trusted with unlimited power.

That's why there has to be compromises - which, more often than not - is what democracy is all about.

A compromise might not always give us the best possible solution. In fact, it usually won't. What it will do is keep the system from tearing itself apart in the process of trying to make decisions. If the decision that's reached is the wrong one, then sooner or later the majority will realize that it's made a bad decision, and we'll get to go back and fix it if possible. If not, then we'll just have to hope that the people will learn from its mistakes and support a different kind of decision next time.

That's democracy, and it's not a perfect system, but it's one that works (for the most part, anyway...) and is fairly self-sustained. Take it or leave it.
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Old June 17, 2002, 04:37   #13
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You are totally missing the boat.

What about when it can't be agreed on what decision has been made?

What about when people start numerous polls to get policies changed to their liking? Don't like the verdict of poll 1? Start poll 2 with a slightly different slant that gets you what you want.

And nobody has said anything about unlimited power. Where did that come from?
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Old June 17, 2002, 07:04   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
What about when it can't be agreed on what decision has been made?

What about when people start numerous polls to get policies changed to their liking? Don't like the verdict of poll 1? Start poll 2 with a slightly different slant that gets you what you want.
Well, it's not like that sort of ting never happens in the real world, is it?

We just need to make rules - like in the real world.
This is where the constitution comes in...

For instance, the Norwegian constitution states that if a bill is turned down by either the Storting (our Congress/Senate), the King or the Supreme Court, then that same bill may not be proposed again within the same term. If, however, you wait until the next term when a new Storting is in session, then it's perfectly okay to bring it up again.

We need to make rules like that in here to, and we need to stick with them. You're probably right about needing somebody to enforce them though.

Perhaps we should elect a Supreme Court?
They would have the power to throw out any decision they find to be unconstitutional - just like in real life.


Quote:
And nobody has said anything about unlimited power. Where did that come from?
That was a general remark, not a response to anything said in here.
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Old June 17, 2002, 07:09   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by skywalker
We ARE the Senate.
Well put, skywalker.

I think that says it all really.
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Old June 17, 2002, 13:34   #16
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The more complicated this thing gets without much of a formal constitution, the more confusing and angry people are going to get in the long run. So ixnay on the senate idea. We all agree that the govt is derrived from us 100 or so, and we are enough to make a representative body.
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Old June 17, 2002, 14:32   #17
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Senate are subjected to money and power wishes....

The senate was created because you cannot have the people voting every request. But we can...

The senate only looks to his own interests.

**** the senate!

[EDIT] Ops, sorry my language... [/EDIT]
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Old June 17, 2002, 14:57   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
I currently refuse to vote, as the senate idea, as it's being discussed, is very unclear and vague. The idea has some great merits and some atrocious flaws, and I won't vote until it is cleared.
This is not a constitutional poll, or am I wrong ?
(there would be more to come if this goes through, like nye says)
And I suggest such polls should have an - Not to be constitutional - option,
preventing subjectivity, mistakes, unclearity and other flaws...

Actually, I believe elected parties should be represented in such a national assembly.! (senate, parliament, reichstag, storting, etc.)
And that would clutter things up here... I think?

NB: I think our poll options here's all right. Yeah, it's kinda civ-style...
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Old June 18, 2002, 02:37   #19
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bump

Might as well give the other 83 people a chance to vote no and to call this idea down.
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Old June 19, 2002, 04:27   #20
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A slightly positive trend for the yes side.

2 days to go.
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Old June 19, 2002, 09:58   #21
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I eventually voted NO.
The whole senate thing is unclear for now : you have Panag's suggestion of a place where senators control the government's jobs, the budget etc. This idea sounds useless , because anybody can do this currently, by asking for the savegame. Panag's suggestion would mean taking power from the people, and it would be unforgivable.

Then, we have NYE's idea of a senate, which is much smarter : an organized thread, where matters are discussed, without creating new threads every two minutes.
BUT, NYE would like some elected representatives of the people, which still doesn't sound right to me : the people can represent themselves, so we don't need any representatives.

Then we have Moral Hazard's idea, where senators should be the ones who say if a poll is correct or not. I agree we need a team to control polls. But, if they are in the senate, some of them will control polls while thinking of their career : I know some would-be senators are sincere, and I have high trust in Nye for example. But let's face it : the senate is the place where wanabee ministers start, in every democracy of the world... Every senate is filled with power hungry people, who think more of themselves than the common good. Letting these people control the rules would be an error, if not a catastrophe.

So, despite my sympathy with several points, I eventually voted NO.
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Old June 19, 2002, 13:44   #22
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Good points Spiffor, however...

If we need a limited group to judge polls, people will have to be elected to those positions. Thus where ever that responsibility ends up, those offices may attract ambitious sorts. It must not be the executives.
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Old June 19, 2002, 15:08   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
Good points Spiffor, however...

If we need a limited group to judge polls, people will have to be elected to those positions. Thus where ever that responsibility ends up, those offices may attract ambitious sorts. It must not be the executives.
Yes, but the constitution could have an amendment regarding polls and validity... A clause demanding a "unvalidate"- option in all such polls.
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Old June 19, 2002, 15:12   #24
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How would that work?

Yes, No, and "This is not Valid"?
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Old June 19, 2002, 15:41   #25
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Don't need it. I feel that the citizenry is competent and informed enough to make decisions on their own.

Besides, having a Senate goes against the idea that we're a participatory democracy here.
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Old June 20, 2002, 02:35   #26
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Last day. Last chance to kick me and this idea around.

Come on! You all know you want too.
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