Oh those wacky enviromentalists...

[Sava]

well said Boris... Fez basically just proved my point with that link to that political party. Ahhh Spain... the one European country that never really stepped out of the realm of Fascism.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


So let's not hold any companies accountable for destroying the environment. Brilliant. What planet are you from? Well, the planet you will end up being on is going to be a barren rock if you had your way. What good will all that R&D do you if you have to suit up like an astronaut to go to the corner store for milk?

I never said that you dumb know-it-all. I said lets give them the incentive to find new technology with grants to. That will be the only way. Not punishing them. But giving them a financial opportunity to develop new technology.

The only think more disconcerting that environmental extremists are anti-environment extremists like you.

The only thought you mean. Sorry I am picky on typos. I am not against the environment and I am not against capitalism.

Don't need any help from me, they did that on their own!

OMG here we go again.

What wasn't I clear on? I think every one of my statements was clear. Yours about environuts in the 1800s was not, as you yourself admitted.

I was clear. I just used that as an inference... I was saying if they were around then the economy still be based on farming and the industrial revolution would of never occured.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Sava
Ahhh Spain... the one European country that never really stepped out of the realm of Fascism.

Another spit in the face for my country from the true know-it-all.

[Sava]

Sorry Fez, "I just call evil by its name" --- Dubya

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Fez


I never said that you dumb know-it-all.

You whine about perceived insults, then use blatant ones yourself? Chalk up hypocrisy to that list, Sava.

I said lets give them the incentive to find new technology with grants to. That will be the only way. Not punishing them. But giving them a financial opportunity to develop new technology.

I just reviewed every post you have in this thread. Not once, ever, did you say this in a post. Stop lying.

The only though you mean.

What? Oh yeah, you're real clear, always...

OMG here we go again.

Hey, you set yourself up for that one.

I was clear. I just used that as an inference... I was saying if they were around then the economy still be based on farming and the industrial revolution would of never occured.

That wasn't what your first post said. It implied you were stating that there were environuts around in 1800, and if they had won we'd be agrarian. Don't blame people for not understanding your misplaced modifiers.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by cia
The difficulty I have with environmentalists is twofold:
They ignore the fact homo sapiens are PART of the environment, NOT existing outside of it.

You sound just like my father, who has never listened to an environmentalist in his life. He has all kinds of ideas about what environmentalists think, thanks to listening to Rush, but he's never actually picked up anything written by them and to se what they actually do think.

[Sava]

Hypocrisy.... check

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


You whine about perceived insults, then use blatant ones yourself? Chalk up hypocrisy to that list, Sava.

This is getting pathetic. You really don't know how to argue?

I just reviewed every post you have in this thread. Not once, ever, did you say this in a post. Stop lying.

And neither did I say otherwise.

That wasn't what your first post said. It implied you were stating that there were environuts around in 1800, and if they had won we'd be agrarian. Don't blame people for not understanding your misplaced modifiers.

No I DIDN'T. WRONG. I said if there were, and that is what I implied. If I typed incorrectly, then I correct myself. Going to insult my english now I see?

This forum is just packed with liars and insulters.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Fez
This is getting pathetic. You really don't know how to argue?

Defensive snarling 101

And neither did I say otherwise.

What?!

I quote you:

I said lets give them the incentive to find new technology with grants to. That will be the only way. Not punishing them. But giving them a financial opportunity to develop new technology.

Then I said:

I just reviewed every post you have in this thread. Not once, ever, did you say this in a post. Stop lying.

And you have the balls to say:

And neither did I say otherwise.

Hoisted on your own petard!

No I DIDN'T. WRONG. I said if there were, and that is what I implied. If I typed incorrectly, then I correct myself. Going to insult my english now I see?

No what you said was:

If these environuts got there way in 1800s we all would living in a wild west scenario... 90% of the economy dependent on agriculture.

Not "if there were." Don't blame other people for misconstruing your intent when you wrote it badly. I wasn't insulting your English, I was pointing out how you implied something stupid. You then insisted you'd been clear and I had not. This is starting to be like shooting fish in a barrell.

This forum is just packed with liars and insulters.

Don't be so hard on yourself, buddy.

[Sava]

I guess I can understand Fez's frustration. It's easier to find supporters when he's atop the soapbox on the playground instead of talking to intellegent people.

[Lincoln]

The forests need to be put into the care of conservationists like Teddy Roosevelt. He preserved millions of acres when he was in office and established several national parks that both people and animals enjoy. Radicals on both sides of the issue just create animosity where there doesn't need to be any. As least some of the fires that are now burning in the west could have been brought under control by now if reasonable people were allowed to clear the forests of dead wood and thin them some and maintain fire roads. Now we have hundreds of square miles destroyed and made a wasteland. In the process precious animals were burned alive along with the endangered species that were supposed to be protected.

So now what do the extremists say about this? They say that forest fires are part of the natural course of events so therefore we should let them burn! Meanwhile whole cities are in the paths of these fires But I suppose the possibility of wiping out millions of 'evil' people is appealing to some of these nuts.

Yes, forest fires are a part of nature and a renewal process will begin after the burn but there is now a small factor that must be considered as we let nature take its course: People.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Sava
I guess I can understand Fez's frustration. It's easier to find supporters when he's atop the soapbox on the playground instead of talking to intellegent people.

The problem is he wants people to give him a free pass when he says dumb things, but jumps on others when he doesn't agree with them. No double-standards in a forum, though.

If you can't take the heat...

[Boris Godunov]

Lincoln, that's why most environmentalists (that I know, at least) advocate controlled, rotational burns of forests that have minimal impact on humans. They're already doing this in some parts of the west, and the result has been a dramatic drop in uncontrolled forest fires. You simply have to have forest fires if you're going to have forests.

[chequita guevara]

Actually, the conservationists pretty well screwed up the national forest system. They're the ones who wiped out the alpha preditors (wolves, bears, pumas) in an effort to conserve the deer. Result, massive dear population explosion. We now have serious deer problems in many suburbs because there's nothing killing off the dear. Attempts to cull the dear population are often met with protest by liberal animal lover protests.

The same thing with the fires. By surpressing forest fires for nearly a century, an unnatural undergrowth has built up creating a massive amount of kindling. Because of the conservationist fire surpression, forest fires are now bigger and hotter than they should be, and consequently far more dangerous.

[Giancarlo]

I don't even know why I argue with idiots... take your sig in mind Boris.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Fez
I don't even know why I argue with idiots... take your sig in mind Boris.

Okay, I will, and will stop arguing with you.

I never said you were an idiot, Fez. You're the one who has been hurling personal insults. There's a big difference between attacking a person's opinion and attacking the person themselves. You do the latter, and get mad when people do the former.

Hopefully, in time, you will learn the difference, and then you'll be able to argue without coming across as a complete jerk.

[Giancarlo]

I was attacked in full force in this thread and another. I was not the one throwing insults first.

[Boris Godunov]

This from the author of "you dumb know-it-all"

Next you'll be calling Sava "Mr. Poopiepants."

[Giancarlo]

Ugh I am tired of this.

[Boris Godunov]

I'm not! Wheeeeee!

[Sava]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
I'm not! Wheeeeee!

me neither hahahahha!

[chequita guevara]

Everyone else is.

[Giancarlo]

Well... no.

[Ecthy]

Ugh... I... uh.. am.

[Giancarlo]

Fez says no.

[Stefu]

Result, massive dear population explosion.

Oh dear.

[Ecthy]

Dear Stefu,

Please stop dearing around.

Dears dearly

Rudolf the Reindear

Fez says no? Fez get needs otherwise?

[ixnay]

UPDATE:

The 2 people who hung off the bridge have been jailed, with a $70,000 bail. It took crews from 3 fire stations in the city to get them down, so much of Missoula was left without fire coverage for several hours.

[chequita guevara]

Sounds like they are charging them with Missoula's own stupidity. Why the heck did it take three fire stations to get them? Your government is in bed with the logging company.

[ixnay]

Here's today's article:

Earth First! members vow to continue efforts

Their climbing ropes and harnesses exchanged for jail-orange jumpsuits, a pair of Earth First! protesters answered to charges of felony criminal endangerment in Missoula Justice Court on Thursday, insisting they are innocent and should not have to post $70,000 each in bail money.



But Justice of the Peace Karen Orzech granted a prosecutor's request and told Sean McCoy and Stephanie Valle that they'll stay in jail until they come up with the money.



And if they do make bail, she said, they cannot have any contact with one another or with five other Earth Firsters arrested during an anti-logging protest on the Madison Street Bridge on Wednesday.



Valle, 19, told the judge she is from McCall, Idaho, and moved to Missoula 10 months ago. She's not a criminal, she said. "I got a smoking ticket when I was 16 and a drinking ticket when I was 17. I don't have a criminal record, and this crime was nonviolent."



Early on Wednesday afternoon, Valle and McCoy attached ropes to a logging truck and rappeled off the top of the Madison Street Bridge, dangling above the Clark Fork River. Five of their friends were arrested and charged with misdemeanors for their part in the spectacle - they jumped in front of the truck so it would stop.



The idea was to protest the logging of burned trees in the Bitterroot National Forest. In doing so, though, the protesters commanded the attention of three fire stations "and left the city of Missoula without fire protection," said Deputy Missoula County Attorney Jennifer Johnson.



Throughout the rescue, firefighters were at great risk, Johnson said. The Clark Fork was just 3 feet below flood stage and was so muddy that firefighters could not see what was below them. McCoy and Valle not only endangered themselves, she said, they endangered everyone in town.



The protesters, though, asked Orzech to let them go free, without bail.



McCoy, 27, told the judge that he was born and raised in Pocatello, Idaho, and worked most recently as a smokejumper based in Redmond, Ore. He's been in Missoula for the past six or eight months, he said, and should be trusted to stick around while he awaits trial.



"I am a nonviolent person," he said. "I served in the military for four years. I am going to appear. I have supported the community for a few years, and have been a part of the Missoula smokejumpers as well. I don't feel $70,000 is quite right."



Orzech wasn't fazed. "Is there a smokejumper in the court who actually knows Mr. McCoy?" she asked the audience. (McCoy and Valle were not in the room, but appeared via television from jail.)



No one raised a hand, thus Orzech's requirement for $70,000 in bail per person. McCoy and Valle will be provided with public defenders who can then ask for a bail reduction hearing, she said.



"I just don't have enough information about who you are, where you're from and exactly what you're doing in this community," Orzech said.



The judge also kept a short leash on 16 Earth Firsters who came to court for Thursday afternoon's hearing, warning one who spoke out during the proceedings to "stand when you address the court."



"And you'll ask permission in the future," she said. No one else spoke or made any sound. Six sheriff's deputies - three inside the courtroom and three just outside the door - stood ready to enforce the rules.



Afterward, on the sidewalk outside the Courthouse, Earth Firster Molly Karp said "the court isn't going to be able to stop people from acting against the Bitterroot salvage scam."



"If these kind of acts keep the issue out in front of the public, then we'll continue our protests," said Karp, who was one of the five charged with misdemeanors for stepping in front of the logging truck. They pleaded innocent in Municipal Court on Wednesday.



If the judge wants to make McCoy and Valle feel isolated by keeping them in jail, she will not succeed, Karp insisted. "I would be glad to go sit in jail to sit in solidarity with them. We are not going to stop."



Which is exactly why Johnson said she asked for the high bail.



"My information is that this is just the first of this kind of protest for the summer," she said. "This high bail is needed to deter further misconduct and to ensure public safety."