Case Pink.

notyoueither · June 23, 2002, 04:34

Gentlemen,

For your consideration, as well as the ladies and gentlemen of the citizenry. Trip, Uber, punkbass2000, Eli, Timeline (or his successor) and Tassadar5000 especially should pay heed. All ministers cooperating will be critical to execute a successful early war (but especially those mentioned).

Sir Ralph, Uber and myself have had a productive conversation re early war and city placement. The key boils down to 3 or 4 productive cities, NOW! As it is, we are 10 turns behind on the Archer Gambit. Not any of your faults, and as things shake out that Worker may be invaluable.

I have spent a great deal of time working on Gedanken excersizes regarding the best way for us to gear up for an early war with who ever is closest to us. If you agree amongst yourselves that war is beneficial, then here is a plan for you to consider. Use the bits that are useful, however the whole is very integrated.

It is called Case Pink. The French are our likely victims, hence the name. Someone may be aware of the naming convention (no ill is intended). On the topic of Sir Ralph, I would like to know what he thinks. I know of no better mind to cut through the b*ll sh*t and get to the heart of strategy who is also a citizen. Sorry to any worthy of consideration whom I have neglected. Speak up.

To begin with, the thread to get this started (for me) may be found here:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...3&pagenumber=4

The discussion re city sites and early war may be found here:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...6&pagenumber=1
page 2 is where it gets productive.

The conversation with Uber that spurred this plan is here:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=53772

hmmm. this is getting a bit long, perhaps multi parts would be better for readers. Gods forgive me.

notyoueither · June 23, 2002, 04:34

As covered elsewhere, key to success in an early war is to establish a good production base as early as possible. Any delays to needed cities and quality military units could be catastrophic. If we decide to put aside needed war production objectives we should shelve the entire idea of vanquishing a foe early.

A word about timing; we do have some time before we commit to an early military plan irrevocably. The concept that a few productive cities are possible in this nightmare of swampland is applicable for whatever course we adopt. I draw your attention again to the city placement thread mentioned above. We can have 3 productive cities, in addition I believe Thebes can be rescued from oblivion.

About Thebes and Workers; I believe that plans as they stand have our 2 workers moving to Thebes to clear jungle. Great, absolutely necessary. I will return to workers later.

notyoueither · June 23, 2002, 04:35

4 cities coming on line in a timely fashion is possible. We are resourse weak (low production cities) however we are gifted with the brilliance of an experienced psychopath to lead our armies in the field. He is well versed in the arts of Mars. He will not flinch. I feel that the thoughtfulness we are devoting to the tasks at hand as well as the experience of those wielding the weapons of our nation hold every prospect of bringing us through to victory. May Jupiter smile on Trip. To borrow yet another element from a well known civilisation with military prowess in their past, through blood and darkness to the light. To the light we must go.

City production assumes a 'standing start' from where we are now.
ar, Archer
Ba, Barracks
Fo, Foundation, turns to settling the city site.
Se, Settler
sp, Spearman
_w, Warrior
(xx), optional, or to be determined

Population growth has been factored into these timelines. Assumptions have been made for waste. Needed technologies are assumed to be available (39 turns before Warrior Code is needed, or 43 before it is critical).

Apolyton:
Anticipated Waste: 0
_w,_w,Se,_w,sp,Ba,ar,ar,ar,ar,ar,(ar)...
04,04,10,04,07,10,05,05,05,05,05,... 64 turns to DDay
Apolyton's build timeline has been adjusted to take into account the fact that we are already 3 turns towards population growth.

Thebes:
Anticipated Waste: 33%
_w,_w,Se,Ba,(sp)...
08,10,20,25,... 63 turns to DDay.
Build timeline adjusted for 2 turns complete towards warrior already.

Red City:
Anticipated Waste: 25%
Fo,_w,_w,Ba,sp,sp,ar,(ar)...
22,05,05,14,07,07,07... 67 turns to DDay

Blue City:
Anticipated Waste: 25%
Fo,_w,Ba,(ar)...
42,05,20... 65 turns to DDay

Bracketed builds are optional. They are supposed by the planners to be a happy mix of 3 to 1 offensive to defensive units. By DDay (turn 67) we would be able to supply the military with 6 archers and 2 spear, all veteran. In addition, we should have 6 warriors available for exploration (some may well be lost on huts) as well as 3 warriors and 1 spear in garrison.

City size would be capped at 3 pop. The third pop would be set to tax collector or natural philosopher as deemed fit by the ministers. Note that 1 natural philosopher can keep our nation on track for a discovery every 40 turns with 0 philosophy budget once Bronze Working has been completed and Warrior Code is secured.

DDay will see us with 4 cities with Barracks producing 3 archers and 1 spear (or whatever is deemed necessary for unit mix).

Critically, we do not as yet know the disposition of our closest competitor (or even for sure that they are French as is supposed). The mix of units could change. The timing of DDay could be moved up if the neighbour is particularly weak. Many things are possible.

The key is that the point of no return for this, Case Pink (or the Archer Gambit) is at about 40 turns from now when Apolyton turns to build it's Barracks (or a bit later since we can switch).

notyoueither · June 23, 2002, 04:36

We currently have 2 workers if I am not deceived. That is good, if you take into account time to bring cities on line for production.

I think it is 12 turns for one of our industrious bees to clear a jungle tile. 2 clear it in 6 turns. 2 turns for road, 3 turns for a mine, 5 for a road in a jungle, etc.

Thinking about it... Our workers are currently 2 and 3 turns respectively from the jungle on the river next to Thebes. Add time to move and a jungle tile is clear in 9 turns. 1 more to build road. Then 1 worker turns back towards the future site of Red City. 7 more turns and the bonus grass is mined. Move 1, build road, build mine, 6 more turns for a second mine next to Red City. Red City is founded in about 22 turns by the plan. In 23 turns Red City has it tiles developed. Good timing.

Moving on to Blue City, it is founded in 42 turns. 12 turns (to road and mine 2 grass tiles) added to 23 shows Blue City to be developed in 35 turns. Premature. Now what?

By the time the Blue City tiles are developed, the worker left at Thebes has mined the first cleared tile, total 13 turns elapsed. Move to another river bordering square, clear jungle, build mine, build road, 18 more turns. Add 13 to 18 and after 31 turns Thebes is complete for now. Now this worker and the other in a few more turns start building road to the edge of the jungle, thus speeding our armies towards destiny. 1 Worker leap frogging another worker (moving 2 squares into the jungle) builds a road in 7 turns. Allowing a few turns for movement to the edge of the jungle... In about 30 turns our industrious bees should be able to build 8 tiles of road in jungle. Archers only have 1 movement? They are much faster when speeding along a road.

Please check my math. Any questions?

BTW, 66 turns should put us at about 1000 bc.

Gallia delenda est.

notyoueither · June 23, 2002, 04:59

arrrggg. dp. wrong place. whatever. sorry.

Nubclear · June 23, 2002, 05:03

Quote:

Originally posted by notyoueither
arrrggg. dp. wrong place. whatever. sorry.

That's ok. Good work, great plan. Although I haven't done the math.

Harovan · June 23, 2002, 05:08

I wholeheartly agree with notyoueither. A very good plan, probably the only way out of our bad start. I haven't checked the math yet, but I will sit down and do it now.

Btw: I am pretty sure, the waste will be less. It's a huge map. This goes into our favor, although I will use your waste values for checking.

Harovan · June 23, 2002, 05:53

Ok, here's my plan minimum. 2 vet spears/6 vet archers ready for Case Pink about 1500BC.

The northern worker goes to Thebes and starts to clear 1 jungle. Thebes finishes its Warrior and builds another one for the new city. After this, it can build a Worker or even a settler. I won't count on it meanwhile.

The southernmost worker goes back and improves the grassland, beginning with the bonus tile. First mine, then road. Apolyton builds the warrior, switches then to barracks (!) and after it builds a settler. I checked it and it should fit, if the 2nd citizen after expansion works on an improved tile. If not (I did it on a sheet of paper instead of the game), adjust the production appropriately. The settler is ready 2510 and builds the city 2470.

The city (I call it "Nameless" since it has none) immediately builds Barracks. Apolyton switches to spears. The improved tiles shall be shared fairly between both cities, and a road shall connect them, to lower corruption. Around 1950 (13 turns later), Apolyton has built 2 spearmen, and Nameless finishes Barracks. Roughly 15 (3x5) turns later, both cities shall have built 3 vet archers each. A strike force of 2 vet spearmen and 6 vet archers leaves Apolytonia about 1500BC. That's about 45 turns from now and much better than 1000BC, as was estimated earlier.

That should be enough to hit the Frenchies hard. the rest is up to UberKruX and Mars. I will pray, and nye shall sacrifice M&Ms.

notyoueither · June 23, 2002, 06:21

Cut out the extra warriors? Have you provided for garrisons to keep the cities working at 2 pop?

Doing some recalculations.

Panag · June 23, 2002, 06:50

hi ,

, intresting , you ought to become a special advisor , ...

have a nice day

Harovan · June 23, 2002, 07:05

Quote:

Originally posted by notyoueither
Cut out the extra warriors? Have you provided for garrisons to keep the cities working at 2 pop?

Doing some recalculations.

The 2nd Warrior in Thebes is ready right 2470BC, when Nameless is built. He has enough time to go to Nameless while it expands. We even can provide a size 3 production, if we put the 2 spears built in Apolyton in the 2 cities as police meanwhile.

civman2000 · June 23, 2002, 07:26

Spunds OK...the city idea is good, but I think all of our cities should at least get temples somewhere in there, especially if we go along with the d-day plan

notyoueither · June 23, 2002, 07:29

OK. I rechecked, but I'm probably pretty rocked by now. 5am local time...

Poly.
_w,Ba,Se,Sp,Sp,ar,ar,ar,ar,...
04,12,08,07,06,05,05,05,05,... 57 turns to DDay.

Red City.
Fo,_w,Ba,ar,ar...
26,05,13,07,07... 58 turns to DDay.

The other two are not critical for analysis since they do not contribute to the initial wave. However, they are important for long term success, especially if we face a longer fight. Build them up!

::a bit deleted:: AHa! I was going off the rails... Too late. OK, I see it. Down to 58 turns to Uber's asked for numbers of 6 and 2. That has us at about 1200 bc. Awefully skinny on scouts.

I can't see it going back to 1500 though. Set up a single player random map and measure waste at the distances we are dealing with at Emp on Huge Map (huge right?). I think 7 turn archers are a safe bet for Red City.

I'll be munching M&Ms, although I may sleep through the turn.

notyoueither · June 23, 2002, 07:34

Yes! Spears as garrisons. I wasn't taking those into account. I told you the AI was doomed if we cooperated.

You'll have to take it from here though Sir Ralph. I'm baked.

Harovan · June 23, 2002, 07:38

I think Case Pink somewhere between 1500BC and 1200BC is realistic. My time math is also probably a bit flawed, but the build order seems sound. I have thought about city garrisons, Thebes can build them. And 2 scouting warriors are the minimum. More we can't afford this time, not to lose too much time. Time matters. Or else the Frenchies get too strong.

Harovan · June 23, 2002, 07:42

Quote:

Originally posted by notyoueither
Yes! Spears as garrisons. I wasn't taking those into account. I told you the AI was doomed if we cooperated.

Given, our glorious government listens to our freemasonry here

.

notyoueither · June 23, 2002, 07:42

Last word(s)

'Time matters. Or else the Frenchies get too strong.'

Everyone, please heed this.

Harovan · June 23, 2002, 07:48

Quote:

Originally posted by civman2000
Spunds OK...the city idea is good, but I think all of our cities should at least get temples somewhere in there, especially if we go along with the d-day plan

I have thought even about this. After the strike force leaves, we poprush temples, to lower the cities to size 2 again. 2 flies with 1 strike.

punkbass2000 · June 23, 2002, 09:14

I support this plan. I hope to make the turnchat, and if not I'll PM Trip and let him know I endorse this.

MrWhereItsAt · June 23, 2002, 09:28

Very long, NYE, but the shortest and easiest to understand of all I have read here today. I support any initiative to cut through the involved nonsense so sommon to this forum and yours is a fine plan to boot.

Where do I vote?

Timeline · June 23, 2002, 09:52

Wow guys!

You have really outdone yourself here

. This plan is excellent, and appears very sound to me, it has my 100% backing.

Vlad Antlerkov · June 23, 2002, 09:57

Wow. All I can say is... wow. That, and I'm in favor of it.

I say that we all send Trip PMs advocating this plan. (Then again, if we just get him to see it, that could be enough!)

Gallia erit divisa in una parte-- nostra parte!

iain · June 23, 2002, 10:05

Good plan, i am all for it, however should we destroy the french or weaken them sufficiently so that they pose no threat

JSeeds · June 23, 2002, 10:08

Wow! Nice job. I'll support this 100%.

Eli · June 23, 2002, 10:18

You have my support.

Harovan · June 23, 2002, 11:29

Quote:

Originally posted by iain
Good plan, i am all for it, however should we destroy the french or weaken them sufficiently so that they pose no threat

Only weaken. Cut their wings now, don't let them fly.

We still need them as research partners, punching bags (e.g. for leader generation) and expansion reserve, since the land a weak AI expands to, is practically ours. And think about tech cost. The more civs we have contact to, the cheaper is tech. Killing the French would hurt ourselves. And in the early game, the flipping chance is low.

Inverse Icarus · June 23, 2002, 13:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Ralph

Only weaken. Cut their wings now, don't let them fly.

We still need them as research partners, punching bags (e.g. for leader generation) and expansion reserve, since the land a weak AI expands to, is practically ours. And think about tech cost. The more civs we have contact to, the cheaper is tech. Killing the French would hurt ourselves. And in the early game, the flipping chance is low.

in my genocidial mind i do see the need for a research partner on emperor.

as far as we know, we could be on an island with france, they could be our only source of science / whatever.

if we find out we're on an island with more people (maybe 2 more civs besides france), i will push for full scale genocide of the french.

and may god help them if they try to impeed our colonization.

i am greatly in favor of NYE and Sir Ralph's plans.

pure brilliance.

i'll also admit that it is a long time to wait, but as i said in my math thread, it's the fastest we can get the job done right. we dont want to go in under-armed and get crushed by the froggies... that would be a humiliation for our empire.

we must crush the french forces and bend them to our will!

Kuciwalker · June 23, 2002, 14:34

I like it. I will support these ideas if I am elected Imperial Expansion Minister.

Kingof the Apes · June 23, 2002, 17:17

Great plan!!

Jonny · June 23, 2002, 17:22

This is a great plan guys!