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Old June 27, 2002, 13:12   #31
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Equating Hebrew civilization with modern Israelis is absurd.

I'd agree with a Hebrew inclusion.
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Old June 27, 2002, 16:04   #32
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Re: Palestinians deserve it more
Quote:
Originally posted by AJ Corp. The FAIR
I would prefer a Palestinian civ for the next XP.

I'd also love to see a decent solution for the Palestinian people in real life, but ...

let's start giving them something already, because they're getting none in their home country.

That's all I have to say about this one. Don't attempt to 'discuss' this post by defending Israel's politics.

We differ in that one.

AJ
Palestinians would be pretty much covered by the Arab civilization. Heck, why not have a Confederate States of America in the expansion pack if you are gonna have the Palestinians?
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Old June 27, 2002, 16:33   #33
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hi ,

, okay , people , lets please not make this in a OT thread , now , as for history , if the Jews would not have been around , well , lets just say that we would not be where we are today , ...

now ; many of you dont know what the Jews did , that's okay , even Jews learn about themselfs every day , ...

now , Jews in history , how many know that in WWII many found refuge in Japan , .... from China , where there was a big war going on , ....

stuff like this , well it can be found everywhere , now , a Jew is someone you can find almost everywhere , in the old days , and yes even now , the provided a trade route , taxes where their idea , they told Xerxes how to collect them , how to use a library , how to pay people , ....

in history the Jew has been doing that , why , well its two folded , one , with the birth of the other faiths , they had there holiday's , the Jew works on these day's , so therefore he could provide a service , when the other's where on there religious holiday , ...
the second ; many Jews where refrained to do this or that job , one ; because of a lesser extend their faith , two ; because the culture they where in had allready skilled jobs in a certain area , ....

even today there are Jews in places like Iran , ....
yes there are poblems , but they are there .
in Morocco today more then half of the banking system is in hands of the Jews , ....

so they played a role that should put them in , just like most civ's , ....

as they are not in , well Firaxis told that we can make our own civ's , so in a way the problem is solved , ....
how-ever , we can not make the units and such , so Firaxis should put them in , ....

have a nice day
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Old June 28, 2002, 00:03   #34
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in the second XP, they'd be alright, I suppose.

just make sure that their UU is ancient. the most modern units (stealth air, modern armor, etc.) need to be something that everyone can get.
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Old June 28, 2002, 23:48   #35
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why not Merkava IV
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Old June 29, 2002, 00:50   #36
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Originally posted by History Guy
Ah ha, yes, but there is a major difference between the Code of Hammurabi and the Ten Commandments...that is: The Code of Hammurabi wasn't written up by God.
No, it was written by Marduk. You gotta look at it from both angles.
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Old June 29, 2002, 01:47   #37
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Originally posted by aebrahim
If the Hebrews were ever to be in this expansion pack, they would have to be militaristic. While you're at it, why not have Hitler (oops I mean Ariel Sharon, but whats the difference) as the leader.


Yea.

And Joshua massacred everything that moved after he crossed the Jordan!



BTW, shouldn't it be "Israelites" and not "Hebrews"?
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Old June 29, 2002, 11:12   #38
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Originally posted by Sirotnikov
why not Merkava IV
hi ,

, it should be 30/24/4 , .....

and one of the two UU's , ...

have a nice day
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Old June 29, 2002, 13:48   #39
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could someone make a poll asking the question yes or no that we would like it in

maybe we just have to say yes or no here , and not go off-topic
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Old July 3, 2002, 02:34   #40
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They should be Religious and Commercial (Jews played a central role in Middle Age commerce, as merchants and lenders, in both the Arab and Christian worlds).

Those who say they should be "militaristic" are either just plain Jew-haters (as evidenced by the nonsensical Hitler-crack) or totally ignorant of the ancient world (the Hebrews did conquer a few neighboring peoples, but never engaged in wholesale expansion or conquest campaigns outside of Israel).

Those who discount the Hebrew influence on history either have absolutely NO idea of the importance of Hebrew moral and religious ideas in the past 4000 years.... not to mention silly things such as OUR own Alphabet, which derives from the ancient Hebrew one (the Ancient Hebrew Alphabet served as a basis for the Greek Alphabet, which in turn became the Latin Alphabet-- ironically, the Modern Hebrew Alphabet is actually Bablyonian Aramaic)-- Alphabet for Aleph Bet. While some Jew-haters dispute this and claim the origin is Greek, one need only compare the Greek and Hebrew alphabets to see which came first. In Hebrew, "Bet" means house. In Greek "Beta" means nothing. In Hebrew, "Gimmal" means camel. In Greek, "Gamma" means nothing. In Hebrew, "Dalet" means door. In Greek, Delta means nothing. Need further proof as to which came first, and who borrowed from who?

Their Unique Unit should be the Maccabee, which would be an upgraded archer. Like the Archer, it would have a standard 3 attack points. However, INSIDE Hebrew territory it would have 5 attack points-- simulating Hebrew survival and resistance to Assyrian, Egyptian, Bablyonian, Greek, and Roman occupation.

The leader should be Soloman.
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Old July 3, 2002, 11:55   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by SeferKoheleth
They should be Religious and Commercial (Jews played a central role in Middle Age commerce, as merchants and lenders, in both the Arab and Christian worlds).
That is a good idea.

Quote:
Those who say they should be "militaristic" are either just plain Jew-haters (as evidenced by the nonsensical Hitler-crack) or totally ignorant of the ancient world (the Hebrews did conquer a few neighboring peoples, but never engaged in wholesale expansion or conquest campaigns outside of Israel).
lol, I am not a Jew hater; most of my close friends are Jewish. My view on them being militaristic was that they fought a LOT of wars in the Old Testament,and also after 1948 when they have almost constantly been at war with their surrounding countries.


Quote:
Their Unique Unit should be the Maccabee, which would be an upgraded archer. Like the Archer, it would have a standard 3 attack points. However, INSIDE Hebrew territory it would have 5 attack points-- simulating Hebrew survival and resistance to Assyrian, Egyptian, Bablyonian, Greek, and Roman occupation.

The leader should be Soloman.
An archer with three attack would be good. I dont think the 5 attack would work well, because It would be invincible on attack until the Middle Ages.


Their leader should be David.
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Old July 3, 2002, 14:11   #42
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hi ,

who should be the great leaders , .....

lets say 12-15 in total , ...

should "Samson" be in , ....

have a nice day
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Old July 3, 2002, 18:39   #43
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Quick comment on the UU...

Zealot (3.2.2) replaces Swordsman

O_o
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Old July 3, 2002, 18:56   #44
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That is WAY too powerful, at the same price as a horseman?

I say archer with 3 attack.
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Old July 4, 2002, 07:34   #45
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I think in order to keep within historical context the Hebrews should be given Commercial, Religious, Militaristic, and Scientific all together. Than in realistic world maps the outcome would fit with reality.
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Old July 4, 2002, 07:36   #46
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Unique unit could be a unique helicopter that actually served a purpose in the game. I think they use helicpoters quite frequently, don't they.
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Old July 5, 2002, 07:02   #47
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My suggestion for the Hebrew UU is the Meragel (spy), as a 1-1-1 unit (10 shields) with +1 sight (that's 3 squares from a mountaintop ).
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Old July 5, 2002, 07:32   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rust
I think in order to keep within historical context the Hebrews should be given Commercial, Religious, Militaristic, and Scientific all together. Than in realistic world maps the outcome would fit with reality.
Yeah, then with all those advantages the Hebrews could conquer the world, as they did in reality
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Old July 5, 2002, 07:35   #49
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A spy type units sounds like a good idea for a UU, but I dont think it would fit into the game mechanism very well. How would a 1-1-1 unit generate a GA for example?
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Old July 5, 2002, 12:38   #50
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i don't think neither firaxis nor infogrames will decide to put in the hebrew. ofcourse, the religious influence on the world was enormouse, but the decision would be waaaaayyyy too political. it such critical times as a game designer, you cannot put in something like that.

for the same reason hitler and stalin didn't make it to be leaders. it's all about being politically correct.... am i right?

btw: zulu's made it in because there would otherwise be no other (non-mediterranian) african civ. spain and the dutch not, because europe would be even more overcrowded on the world map (england, france, germany, rome, greece and russia).

now in XP1 (PTW) there'll be celts (or vikings?) and spain in too... and maybe more?

from geographical point of view, we need more on the
- american continents: indios (south), maya (northern part of south america), aztecs (central america and mexico), iroquois and/or sioux and maybe the inuit (canada, alaska)
- african continent: my ethnic knowledge of africa is miserable, but some nation in the region of nigeria and something down in south africa.
- australia: hey, australia as starting location would HEAVEN on big maps because it's easy to defend and big enough (british isles are way too small for >2 cities).
- something in middle asian region (around kazakhstan maybe)

europe has plenty,
eastern-asia too (china, india, japan, new: mongols),
middle east also (egypt, bablylon, turkey, persia, greece is near too)

so even if hebrew should be in... from geographical reasons, there is no need... au contraire! and because of the present situation anyway not...

but all of you are free to use the editor UU's will be around soon...
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Old July 5, 2002, 16:58   #51
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My vote: they are in. Call them Hebrews, not Israelites. They should be commercial and religious. Leader should be David, not Solomon. UU? I'd better go read up some more before I cast that vote!

And, I definitely want to see the DUTCH in an expansion pack!!!
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Old July 6, 2002, 09:51   #52
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hi ,

in this thread its ones again proven that more then one UU for each civ is welcome , .....

in the old days we could have little David's , with a stone slingshot , ......

and in the new days , a piece of modern armour that rocks , .....

have a nice day
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Old July 6, 2002, 23:34   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by sabrewolf
for the same reason hitler and stalin didn't make it to be leaders. it's all about being politically correct.... am i right?

They might have been excluded due to the fact that Hitler ruled for a relatively short period of time, as did Stalin.

True, Stalin's purges and Hitler's master race scheme might have had something to do with their being left out...

Quote:
from geographical point of view, we need more on the
- american continents: indios (south), maya (northern part of south america), aztecs (central america and mexico), iroquois and/or sioux and maybe the inuit (canada, alaska)
- african continent: my ethnic knowledge of africa is miserable, but some nation in the region of nigeria and something down in south africa.
- australia: hey, australia as starting location would HEAVEN on big maps because it's easy to defend and big enough (british isles are way too small for >2 cities).
- something in middle asian region (around kazakhstan maybe)
The reason these civilizations were left out was probably because they had a relatively small impact on world history.

As for Hebrews, I agree that Israelites might be a better term. Religious and Militaristic(if the Old Testament was made into a movie, it would be R...)Leader and GLs? Moses , Solomon, David, Aaron, etc. I'd have to go get the Bible to continue the list.

UU? Slingshot guy or archer. Prophet?

Wonders? Ten Commandments, Law of Moses - decrease corruption.

I can see the religious/political repercussions, maybe what kept The Powers from putting it in the XP.

I'm sure we'll have Hebrew/Israelite mods, probably even Catholic, Baptist and Mormon mods. (Hehe, Mormon UU: Missionaries, cause cities to defect...Wonder: Nauvoo Temple...hm....)

I'm beginning to ramble OT, so I'll go join Homer in eating mayonnaise...
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Old July 7, 2002, 04:27   #54
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The Old Testament is considered literature by Jews, not truth.

I find it quite strange to assign civilizations traits, since there's an extremely good chance that the people in question would not agree with what you assigned them . . .
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Old July 7, 2002, 04:56   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by Verto
They might have been excluded due to the fact that Hitler ruled for a relatively short period of time, as did Stalin.
what do you consider as long? jeanne d'arc never ruled france at all (just some troups) and is in the game.
btw: hitler came to power in 1933 and dominated until 1945. that's 12 years of ruling with (one of) the biggest impact in last centurie's history. before that he had quite a lot of power with his civil army (SS, SA)

stalin in fact ruled even longer: 1924 to 1954... 30 years!!! probably older than jeanne d'arc even was

Quote:
The reason these civilizations were left out was probably because they had a relatively small impact on world history.
of course... i was just saying it for the purpose of geographical spread... the inuit, kasakhs, indios, etc. had very little impact (afaik)

Quote:
As for Hebrews, I agree that Israelites might be a better term. Religious and Militaristic(if the Old Testament was made into a movie, it would be R...)Leader and GLs? Moses , Solomon, David, Aaron, etc. I'd have to go get the Bible to continue the list.
i agree with thouse traits. scientific (some proposed) is only quite a new "real life" trait.

Quote:
Wonders? Ten Commandments, Law of Moses - decrease corruption.
Worders? Why wonders? No civ has own wonders...

Quote:
I'm sure we'll have Hebrew/Israelite mods, probably even Catholic, Baptist and Mormon mods. (Hehe, Mormon UU: Missionaries, cause cities to defect...Wonder: Nauvoo Temple...hm....)
oh, these UUs could be fun: add to population, convert people into highly religious ones and when 50% are strong believers: loose all tech but have temples, synagoges, mosques, churches, etc. for free
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Old July 7, 2002, 14:59   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. President
The Old Testament is considered literature by Jews, not truth.

I find it quite strange to assign civilizations traits, since there's an extremely good chance that the people in question would not agree with what you assigned them . . .
hi ,

intresting for you , but the jews dont agree , ......

lets keep some things in the OT , ....

as for the second part , no-one should "assign" anything , ...

have a nice day
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Old July 7, 2002, 15:06   #57
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Quote:
The Old Testament is considered literature by Jews, not truth.

I find it quite strange to assign civilizations traits, since there's an extremely good chance that the people in question would not agree with what you assigned them . . .
I'm puzzled about the OT part...I thought the Jews accepted the Old Testament as scripture/etc, but not the New Testament? Perhaps someone knowledgeable about such things could enlighten me...

How concerned were you about how the Germans might feel to be considered warmongers? I haven't seen anyone thus far complain about how the assigned traits might not be agreeable with everyone, but that's life.
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Old July 7, 2002, 15:14   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by Verto


I'm puzzled about the OT part...I thought the Jews accepted the Old Testament as scripture/etc, but not the New Testament? Perhaps someone knowledgeable about such things could enlighten me...
hi ,

why should a jew do so , only to get his behind canned after 5 min , .....nope , and this stuff is OT

have a nice day
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Old July 7, 2002, 17:59   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. President
The Old Testament is considered literature by Jews, not truth.

I find it quite strange to assign civilizations traits, since there's an extremely good chance that the people in question would not agree with what you assigned them . . .
That's mostly wrong. Reform and Conservative Jews believe the Bible to be a mixture of history, myth, poetry, and literature. Most Reform and Conservative Jews, for example, acknowlege the history of the later kings, Ezra and Nehemia as truth, while questioning events such as the Exodus.

Orthodox and traditional Jews (a 10% minority in the present-day US, but clearly a majority in Jewish history, and probably about 40% of Jews worldwide today) accept the entire "Old Testement" as truth, with the exception of books such as Job and Daniel, about which there is some debate.

While the Bible portrays the Israelites as militaristic, it their actual period of conquest wasn't very long. Keep in mind that in antiquity, the Israelites were far from being considered "militaristic"-- unlike the Greeks or Romans or Babylonians or Assyrians or Egyptians the Israelities never conquered large tracts of land or subjugated massive numbers of people- only small tribes such as Edom and the Phillistines.

Consequently, religious and commercial make the best match.
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Old July 7, 2002, 19:52   #60
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Why not a prophet? He could convert enemy cities and units and utterly obliterate those that resist conversion. Of course, giving the Hebrews servant of God might overpower them
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