We will never surrender!

Panzer · June 25, 2002, 08:12

I'm playing a game with my custom faction and all goes well. However, decades ago the Hive declared war on me (nothing new here) and they won't make peace. I've captured a few of their bases but I haven't committed any atrocities against them (unless blowing up a few colony pods and formers are considered atrocities by the AI). I've activated the scenario editor to see what Yang's policies were. Apparently he wants to fight to the death, even though I haven't given him any reason to do so. In fact, many times I've tried to contact him to make peace but he just blabbers about my Democratic government being a menace to his plans and won't listen to reason. There is no way that he can win this war (I'm casually building up my invason force while my navy and airforce contain him) but still he persists. So I was wondering: What makes an AI decide to fight to the death? And I know about atrocities, I am talking about other reasons

.

waab · June 25, 2002, 08:19

I don't know but the idiology and aggresive level, will have an high input I think.

Qilue · June 25, 2002, 13:39

The AI is more likely to fight to the death (or declare vendetta) if they owe you energy but are unable to meet the repayments.

Moral - don't lend lend the AI energy.

Adalbertus · June 25, 2002, 15:15

No idea. But it also seems to depend on the faction. Miriam loves to surrender (and to betray you later, but when you've kicked her a bit she will surrender again ... pp), Deirdre rarely does (how often I had her down to the last base, knocked out the last defender, no outstanding loan, no atrocities, I was running Green for ages, and she still happily wants to fight to the last (wo)man).

Panzer · June 26, 2002, 03:16

Hmmmm, I think you're on to somehing Qilue, It's quite possible I gave Yang a loan (we've all been there: Yang comes whining at your door, threatens you and you give him a loan to shut him up). I'm not cetain however, but I suppose it makes sense

. You know, quite often Moragn refuses to surrender too, even when my forces have eradicated the last defender of his last size 2 base he still says: "I'll crush you like a bug!" Oh well, at least he's got a sense of humour!

Darius · June 28, 2002, 12:10

If you're running Democratic, Yang will hate you no matter what.

Panzer · June 28, 2002, 12:43

Quote:

If you're running Democratic, Yang will hate you no matter what

True, but that doesn't mean he has to fight to the death. I always have a Democratic government and I always have a fight with Yang but he is usually willing to make peace after I've captured a few of his bases. However, he didn't want to make peace this time, which I found puzzling since my reputaton is still noble. Oh well, he's dead now, so it doesn't matter

.

Method · June 28, 2002, 13:35

Quote:

Originally posted by Panzer
You know, quite often Moragn refuses to surrender too, even when my forces have eradicated the last defender of his last size 2 base he still says: "I'll crush you like a bug!" Oh well, at least he's got a sense of humour!

well maybe Morgan AI was just sensible in my situation but me and him were on that huge continent with the jungle on map of planet. i started around planteneck, he started around the mesa. of course he only had 4 bases for some reason, then declared war on me even thought i was in market. one fusion rover next to his crappiest base was enough for him in this case.

Chowlett · June 28, 2002, 17:24

Firstly - why did you activate the scenario editor to see Yang's SE settings? Under the most recent patch, they appear under his faction profile (commlink, right-click his name).

Secondly - it's entirely possible to temporarily change government to one Yang prefers, talk to him, then change it back the same turn, recouping the money spent in the first place.

Maniac · June 28, 2002, 17:54

Chowlett, Cheater!!!

Adalbertus · June 28, 2002, 18:50

Quote:

Buy your very own 4-dimensional, non-orientable, 1-sided, zero-edged, zero-volume, genus 1 manifold immersed in 3-space!

Sorry, Chowlett, for being a bit pricky, but the manifold itself is 2-dimensional, and all 2-dimensional manifolds have zero volume with respect to a 4-dimensional measures.

University of Planet - Coffee Break Talks

Method · June 28, 2002, 21:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Chowlett
Firstly - why did you activate the scenario editor to see Yang's SE settings? Under the most recent patch, they appear under his faction profile (commlink, right-click his name).

i think this means policies not SE settings. if you go to edit diplomacy you will see check boxes with things like
-vendetta
-truce
-treaty
-pact
-i have surrendered
-i want to talk
-i want revenge
-will fight to the death
-i am atrocity victim
-etc...

apparently will fight to the death is checked. i guess you know this when the faction says "nothing personal but planet simply isn't big enought for the two of us..."

johndmuller · June 29, 2002, 00:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Chowlett
. . . . .
Secondly - it's entirely possible to temporarily change government to one Yang prefers, talk to him, then change it back the same turn, recouping the money spent in the first place.

This kind of activity is illegal in PBEM/MP isn't it?

Marid Audran · June 29, 2002, 01:37

I regard SE fudging in the course of a diplomatic turn in order to gain AI brownie points to be bad form, and refrain from doing it. I take exception during a long-term war of invasion and eradication. if I feel the AI would surrender due to its hopeless situation and only my abhorrant SE settings are keeping it back, I'll change them to their preferred choice the turn I'll speak to them. But, I'll only accept unconditional surrender; I won't con peace treaties from them this way.

Sometimes this method saves time from the meaningless clean-up job of an invasion force; other times I've found antithetical SE settings don't matter and AI will surrender anyway. It seems to have great effect if you have some base or other that the AI wants badly back, i.e. "Return Socialism Tunnels!" "No." "Give me Fusion Power!" "No." "You're running DEMO! You die!" The AI will only bluff you twice with demands before falling back on an automatic SE-aversion declaration of war.

Panzer · June 29, 2002, 05:50

Quote:

Originally posted by TKG

i think this means policies not SE settings. if you go to edit diplomacy you will see check boxes with things like
-vendetta
-truce
-treaty
-pact
-i have surrendered
-i want to talk
-i want revenge
-will fight to the death
-i am atrocity victim
-etc...

apparently will fight to the death is checked. i guess you know this when the faction says "nothing personal but planet simply isn't big enought for the two of us..."

Yup, that's what I meant. In this case the box "fight to the death" was checked.

I'm not sure the "nothing personal...." routine indicates that the faction will not surrender. I've seen it many times before and usually the faction will surrender anyway after you've pounded them long enough.

Method · June 29, 2002, 09:42

now that i think of it, i think you're right

Nubclear · June 29, 2002, 17:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Panzer

Yup, that's what I meant. In this case the box "fight to the death" was checked.

I'm not sure the "nothing personal...." routine indicates that the faction will not surrender. I've seen it many times before and usually the faction will surrender anyway after you've pounded them long enough.

Really? Every time the AI says that to me, they always fight to the death. Of course I never activate the secnario editor to check, but...Even if they're last base is undefended and they aren't producing minerals, they still "will derive great pleasure" in having me executed.

:hmm:

Panzer · July 1, 2002, 06:01

I'm certain now that the "Nothing personal" routine doesn't indicate that the AI will fight to the death. Example: Santiago comes knocking on my door demanding Doctrine: Airpower. Naturally I give her the finger and she declares Vendetta on me, using the "Nothing personal" routine. After conquering half of her bases she surrenders and she has been a good pet ever since. So the "Nothing personal" routine is just a phrase the AI uses to piss you off

.

Method · July 1, 2002, 15:22

so i guess there is no way to tell if the AI will fight to the death or not. except the "you butchered thousands of my people you monster" after you atrocity them.

here's something i've just seen for the first time. AI zak got eliminated by H'minee early and apparently do or die is on (or is it off?). anyways he started over. he only has 2 bases but they are far away and safe from the caretakers for now. i want to use him as a tech pet, so i tell him to end his war with the caretakers but he says: 'Never! H'minee and her ruthless followers must be crushed!'' it would seem that the AI wont surrender if you make it restart.(?)

Chowlett · July 1, 2002, 18:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Adalbertus

Sorry, Chowlett, for being a bit pricky, but the manifold itself is 2-dimensional, and all 2-dimensional manifolds have zero volume with respect to a 4-dimensional measures.

University of Planet - Coffee Break Talks

I know - and I think "embedded" is wrong as well (should be immersed). I would gladly change it if someone would just give me a succinct alternative...

Quote:

I regard SE fudging in the course of a diplomatic turn in order to gain AI brownie points to be bad form, and refrain from doing it. I take exception during a long-term war of invasion and eradication. if I feel the AI would surrender due to its hopeless situation and only my abhorrant SE settings are keeping it back, I'll change them to their preferred choice the turn I'll speak to them. But, I'll only accept unconditional surrender; I won't con peace treaties from them this way.

Exactly how I use it. And I would never use it in MP.