American position on the PA

[Ned]

The Bush administration admits it has no contingency plan if Arafat is re-elected. I expect, though, that the Israeli's do. With no hope for a deal that will end the bombing, they will act. What I expect they will do is terminate the PA and arrest Arafat.

They may then begin negotiations with Jordan and Egypt to return the territories to their respective jurisdictions.

[Sava]

Hey Saint Marcus....

On Feb. 27, 1933, a fire destroyed part of the Reichstag building. Hitler immediately accused the Communists of having set the fire. President von Hindenburg proclaimed a state of emergency and issued decrees suspending freedom of speech and assembly. The elections gave a bare majority of seats to Hitler's National Socialists (Nazis; see National Socialism) and their allies, the German Nationalists

from the www.historychannel.com

He wasn't elected in an individual election. His party was voted into power, and him being the leader of the party, he was voted into power.

[CyberGnu]

So Israel should be allowed to kill palestinian civilians (ohh, it was a mistake, soo very sorry, I promise not to do it again in the next five minutes or so), but the palestinians are not allowed to defend themselves?

I think the division between civilian and military made sense 300 years ago, when wars were fought by mercenaries in uniform. Today there is no difference...

WW2 wasn't won by men in uniform. It was won by industrial capacity.

[Sirotnikov]

Cyber, you being a historian, want to bring some evidence proving undoubtable intention to kill, by the Israeli soldiers?

Something from the NYT or something.

[Sirotnikov]

Cyber is an excellent historian when it comes to writing baseless exaggeration.

He relies on the best sources of inexact media. Mostly himself.

[Arrian]

Cyber,

You're full of it.

The Israelis are not deliberately murdering civilians. If that was their intent, it would all be over pretty quickly. You like to allege that the deaths of Palestinian civilians were deliberate acts by Israel only because you think it justifies the suicide bombing.

I love how you demand proof of others, and then turn around and make baseless allegations when it suits you.

So Israel should be allowed to kill palestinian civilians (ohh, it was a mistake, soo very sorry, I promise not to do it again in the next five minutes or so), but the palestinians are not allowed to defend themselves?

WW2 wasn't won by men in uniform. It was won by industrial capacity.

Oh, I see, the suicide bombers are "defending" the Palestinians by blowing up factories, is that it? Well, I suppose a pizzaria is a factory that makes pizza...

-Arrian

[ranskaldan]

Here's my two cents:

Fist of all: I don't think suicide bombings are justifiable, especially not against civilians. In the same way, I don't think what happened in Dresden or Hiroshima were justified.

However, I support the end of the Palestinian actions, that is, to achieve liberation. Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip is not justifiable by any moral standard. It is no more justifiable than the German occupation of Poland from 1939 to 1945.

Finally, I'm not trying to justify suicide bombings here, but has anyone even considered why suicide bombings are taking place? No, Palestinians aren't doing it for the heck of it. There is a root cause to it, one that consists mainly of pain, suffering, and oppression. And Israel probably shouldn't be contributing to this problem if they want any chance of achieving peace.

[CyberGnu]

Siro, you might want to read through my post a few times. Eventually you might even understand it.

In the meantime you should probably try to be a little more civil. Insulting someone for a point you misunderstood only reflects poorly on you.

I understand that you are frustrated and maybe a little shaken to learn that the media you have trusted as a kid turned out to lie habitually... But when you finally manage to wrap your mind around it you will be so much better off.

[CyberGnu]

Arrian:

The Israelis are not deliberately murdering civilians.

So far over 1500 civilians have died in the second uprising. The uprising is aginst the occupation. The occupation is deliberate.

Check the parallel US law: If someone dies while you commit a crime, you are guilty of murder, even if you didn't intentd to kill him. Same principle applies here.

I honestly don't understand where 'baseless allegations' comes in. What facts are you doubting? That israel is occupying palestine? That civilians have died? That Hiroshima was nuked?

Or was it what I responded to in my first paragraph? Well, that would make you an ass for insulting someone over something you didn't understand, wouldn't it?

[CyberGnu]

Oh, I see, the suicide bombers are "defending" the Palestinians by blowing up factories, is that it? Well, I suppose a pizzaria is a factory that makes pizza...

Industrial capacity is not only metals and machines. It's the people working them.

I'v never understood why when 10 people appoint an 11'th to fight in their stead it is supposedly moral to kill the 11'th, but not the first ten.

If it was in a dictarotship, I could understand it: The 11'th is forcing the first 10 to feed, clothe and support him. But Israel is a democracy. The people of Israel voted Sharon and his ilk into power. So the people of Israel are inherently MORE guilty than the civilians of Hiroshima.

[Arrian]

I honestly don't understand where 'baseless allegations' comes in. What facts are you doubting? That israel is occupying palestine? That civilians have died? That Hiroshima was nuked?

None of the above. I doubt that the civilians killed were killed intentionally. Yes, the occupation is intentional. Yes, it's also wrong. No, that does not justify the intentional targetting of civilians.

It is clear that you don't understand the distinction between military and civilian, and the reason it's important.

But Israel is a democracy. The people of Israel voted Sharon and his ilk into power. So the people of Israel are inherently MORE guilty than the civilians of Hiroshima.

So the policies of the US government which made the US a target for terrorism and culminated in 9/11 make us all legitimate targets, despite the fact that a "landslide" election victory usually means 60%/40% ?

The Israelis who voted against Sharon and have protested the occupation are targets just like the rest of their countrymen. So are the innocent children who had nothing to do with Israeli policy. Accordingly, your claim that citizens of a democracy are legitimate targets due to their voting rights is disingenuous. Many vote against the government that won, and the kids can't vote at all.

It's terrible when civilians are killed - whether they are Palestinian or Israeli. The difference that I see is that Palestinian extremists deliberately target Israeli citizens, whereas the IDF is trying to get at combatants and unfortunately end up killing civilians. It is not their intent to do so. You claim that it IS their intent. I don't buy it.

-Arrian

[ranskaldan]

Frankly, it's very hard to argue to Israeli soldiers are deliberately killing civilians.

In general, Israeli armed forces shoot only at armed militants, or people whom they think are armed militants, or buildings containing armed militants, or buildings thought to contain armed militants.

(What's the difference between armed militants and civilians? In occupied societies, there's often little difference.)

As for deliberate acts against civilians, only eviction, humiliation, and oppression is actually confirmable. Deliberate massacres of unarmed civilians are not. It's impossible to know whether it happened in Jenin or not.

Finally, it is arguable that Israel is responsible for infrastructure building in Palestinian territories. In addition, assimilated Arabs (i.e. Israeli Arabs) are generally accepted into mainstream Israeli society.

Thus, it's hard to compare the Israeli occupation of Palestine to Hitler or even Milosevic. Comparing it to, say, the American involvement in Vietnam, the British colonization of India, or the (initial) Chinese occupation of Tibet, is a lot closer to reality.

[Arrian]

Agreed, ranskaldan.

I have no intention of absolving Israel of all guilt for the occupation and its effects. Far from it. But that doesn't mean I will accept terrorism as a response.

It's funny, the very reasoning which terror apologists use to defend the targetting of civilians would, by extension, justify Israeli collective reprisals such as destroying civilian infrastructure (which I think is not only wrong, but also stupid).

-Arrian

[ranskaldan]

Israel's tactics in destroying "terrorist infrastructure" have been very bizarre so far.

It's almost as bizarre as America trying to topple Fidel Castro by sanctioning his country.

[Imran Siddiqui]

As for Sharon, he will go away in a flash like so many Israeli leaders before him.

Hopefully he won't go away in a flash .

[CyberGnu]

None of the above.

What then?

It's a simple question. You saw fit to insult me over it, I think I can demand an answer.

It is clear that you don't understand the distinction between military and civilian, and the reason it's important.

Please enlighten me.

So the policies of the US government which made the US a target for terrorism and culminated in 9/11 make us all legitimate targets, despite the fact that a "landslide" election victory usually means 60%/40% ?

No, because the US is not occupying Saudi-Arabia. Amazing how hard that concept seems to be to israeli apologizers. The US bombings in afganistan are more related the palestinian bombings in Israel than Israels occupation of palestine.

Regarding the children, yes I agree they are innocent. How should that influence the the resistance? Are you defending the practice of using children as human shields? It is up to the parents of the children to either end the occupation or to move away from Israel. The blood of every slain Israeli child is on Sharons hands, not Arafats.

[CyberGnu]

Forgot one thing: the whole point of a democracy is that the entire society take responsibility for the actions the majority decided. Claiming that the minority aren't responsible won't work...

[ranskaldan]

That, of course, is the one single biggest problem with democracy.

Tyranny of the majority.

[CyberGnu]

Yeah, I know... You end up with people like Bush. Oh, wait, that wasn't democracy... Anyway...

[Ned]

CyberGnu, Could you please check out the thread on the German court holding that Nazi reprisals are justified? I asked you a question in the first post that may have some relevance here as well.

Originally posted by DanS
What Bush said makes a lot of sense. I have little faith that either of the current leaders can move toward peace. It looks to me like Bush thinks this as well, with Arafat going this year and Sharon going in the next couple of years. It's sort a mid-term bet.

Arafat isn't going to last much longer anyway. What is he, 80 years old? Sharon's an old fart too.

Arafat born 1929. 73 year old sometime this year.
Sharon had to be in his 60s.
These two hate each other and nothing will happen alone as these two are in power.
There is really only one problem over there. Each wants his country to have a border that goes to Leb. and Syria in the north, Jordan on the east and Egypt in the south and the Med. in the west.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Siro, you might want to read through my post a few times. Eventually you might even understand it.

Explain it to me, oh intelligent one.

In the meantime you should probably try to be a little more civil. Insulting someone for a point you misunderstood only reflects poorly on you.

Insulting you? Me? Never!

I understand that you are frustrated and maybe a little shaken to learn that the media you have trusted as a kid turned out to lie habitually... But when you finally manage to wrap your mind around it you will be so much better off.

Source?

Either prove that it is lying, or get the f*ck out of my threads and quit spamming them.

[Sirotnikov]

Regarding the children, yes I agree they are innocent. How should that influence the the resistance?

Hmm.... how about not targetting children?

Are you defending the practice of using children as human shields?

You are defending the practice of using children as targets.

Who is worse?


Anyway, you still owe me an answer to a question I asked several threads ago.


If you steal my house, is it moral that I come and kill your relatives one by one until you give it back?

[CyberGnu]

Ned, sorry, I didn't read that post until now, and I don't have time to read the whole thing, so would you mind clarifying one thing for me? Was the man who was aquitted ordered to do what he did?

If yes, I agree with the ruling. Disobeying an order was a capital offence in the german system... If not (which from what you have posted seems likely), then the court decision is crap. I think the guy should accompany Sharon to the firing squad.

[CyberGnu]

Explain it to me, oh intelligent one.

I've done that, repeatedly.... Go back and read again.

Insulting you? Me? Never!

Well, then, I'll remind you about that next time there is talking about extracting items from lower orifices.

Source?

Either prove that it is lying, or get the f*ck out of my threads and quit spamming them.

*sigh*

again, proving a negative. Look, most of the stuff you post is sourced from israeli media ir intelligence. They in turn usually don't source at all. I could theoretically interview every palestinian alive , and even then I can't prove that I missed someone, or maybe that he died before I got to him, or that one of them lied to me but told the truth to Israeli media etc.

You see?

The correct assumption is to believe it is not true until it is verified by a trustworthy source, such as a NYT journalist.

[CyberGnu]

Hmm.... how about not targetting children?

Have they knowingly attacked a kindergarten or a school? (take note of the word knowingly). And if so, was it part of a policy or an isolated incident? You are fond of pointing out that one bad apple doesn't represent every one else...

Have israeli children died? Yes, sure they have. And whose fault is that? Sharons. Very simple.

[CyberGnu]

You are defending the practice of using children as targets.

Who is worse?

Intriguingly, I don't defend the practice of targeting children. I think it is criminal to bring children with you when you commit a crime.

But you, my friend, just admitted to defending the practice of using children as human shields.... Are you a settler at heart, Siro?

[CyberGnu]

Anyway, you still owe me an answer to a question I asked several threads ago.


If you steal my house, is it moral that I come and kill your relatives one by one until you give it back?

Hmm, can't remember you asking that... But it's been a long thread.

Anyway, if my family insists on bringing food and ammo to me while I occupy my house, feel free to shoot them.

If they sit tight in their house and don't involve themselves in my crime, attacking them would be wrong. Just like attacking jews in Europe for Israels atrocities.

[Sirotnikov]

Have they knowingly attacked a kindergarten or a school? (take note of the word knowingly). And if so, was it part of a policy or an isolated incident? You are fond of pointing out that one bad apple doesn't represent every one else...

Let me remind you of several incidents

1. A bomb is put next to school. Explodes 10 minutes before it the end of school, luckily.

2. A small bomb in a milk carton placed near a kindergarten (iirc)

3. Two israeli teens are murdered while taking a walk in the territories.

4. Several teens in a school in the territories, playing basketball are all gunned down.

5. Teen is lured over the internet to meet with a palestinian woman and then slaughtered

6. Suicide bomb at a disco for young (below 18) teens.

7. Suicide bomber approaches a bus stop in which only children are standing. Begins talking to them, gathering them around, explodes.

8. Suicide bombers which get on buses around 7, when children go to school, and over 50% of people on the bus are children.

9. Terrorist enters civilian house, guns down mother. guns down naked little girl which walks out of bathroom.

10. Terrorist enters school, guns down children in dorms.

11. Terrorist enters civilian house, shoots everyone in thier beds, including children.


I'm sure there have been lots of incidents I forgot.

[Sirotnikov]

Well, then, I'll remind you about that next time there is talking about extracting items from lower orifices.

Aaaawwww

Little gnu is offended by expressions such as 'ass'.

Well, to yee of little knowledge of english:
"talk out of ones ass" = "speak bullshit" = "talking without having the slightest idea or basis of his words"

It's a standard english expression. But I understand than english is a difficult language, and you being of the smart elite are probably not acquainted with slang.

Look, most of the stuff you post is sourced from israeli media ir intelligence. They in turn usually don't source at all. I could theoretically interview every palestinian alive , and even then I can't prove that I missed someone, or maybe that he died before I got to him, or that one of them lied to me but told the truth to Israeli media etc.

1. I doubt that even a third of what I post here is intelligence.

2. It being intelligence, you have a full right to take it with a grain of salt.

3. If an Israeli newspaper quotes a palestinian civilian or politician, you should trust it, unless you have an example of Israeli newspapers forging evidence.

4. You claims about not being able to substatiate said quotes applies equally to NYT and so on. And I do no accept the claim that NYT is "well known" etc, since just a month ago I read about a journalist in some major american newspaper (NYT or WT or WP) fabricating articles out of his arse. I see no difference between the liability of NYT and Haaretz or Jerusalem Post.


However, you are now minimizing your claims.

You have also claimed that Israeli newspapers bring quotes from arab speaking newspapers, which are obviously false, or misrepresented.

You must have an actual example of false quotes if you think so, or else, your opinion is unfounded and therefore I regard it as false.

Infact, I have also recently provided you with an Arabic -> English translator, which you could use to translate arabic newpapers and prove once and for all, that Israeli newspapers have a habbit of lying.


You can not automatically assume that the Israeli media is untrustworthy, just because you think so. You have to have some basis for it.

Other wise, you are infact inventing those claims, based on your prejudices.