USA or France?

Ninot · June 25, 2002, 17:56

We found the USA. Since we are already on the war path (in a way..), we can now make a choice of targets.

Shall we attack 1: the USA to our north?
2: France to our west?
3: Give peace a chance

Remember, this is unofficial, more of an opinion poll based on what we know now, rather than a pure decision. Vote to your hearts content.checkout my report for detailed info on the USA and France

Vlad Antlerkov · June 25, 2002, 17:59

I say we follow Case Pink for now.

If the Americans turn out to be hostile, then redirect our efforts toward them. We'll have to wait and see if they're aggressive, though.

In addition, the Americans don't seem to have better terrain than we do. (They might be stuck in the jungle.)

Jon Shafer · June 25, 2002, 18:00

From what we know NOW, I'd say that it's France, easily. Opportunity for iron, and other minerals later, as well as the only good land that we're aware of.

Vlad Antlerkov · June 25, 2002, 18:02

Yes, from what we know NOW. The only way to be sure is to find out. For all we know, the Americans may be on better land than the Frenchies.

We'll be in suspense until Thursday, probably.

(The Thursday turnchat is still on, right?)

Jon Shafer · June 25, 2002, 18:03

Quote:

More of an opinion poll based on what we know now

Based upon what we know now.

And yes, Thursday is still on.

Inverse Icarus · June 25, 2002, 18:04

(in my sav anywyay) the French are Polite and the Americans are annoyed.

i'm saving my vote until AFTER discussion.

Duddha · June 25, 2002, 18:09

France! The Americans are in the same crapy jungle we are.

Harovan · June 25, 2002, 18:20

The "both" option is missing. First the French, then the Yanks. Oscillating wars.

notyoueither · June 25, 2002, 18:58

Too soon for such polls, unofficial though they may be. We know too little, so our opinions are uninformed.

Ninot · June 25, 2002, 20:19

Uninformed or not.. this poll does have influence on my job. If we are to decide a path of war on one nation, it is best we not engage in trade with them.. and instead trade with another.

Here is what I am thinking.

We have already started trade with France. They are polite to us.

We have not started trade with America. They are annoyed with us.

If we were to stay on this path, we would keep polite relations with France, and have absolutely no fear of bad reputation from breaking a trade with them. And, on that note, since France will have most techs America will have, we would never have to trade with America.. and thus, have no reservations about when we have to wait to attack them. It would be as simple as amassing the troups and crossing the border.

So I post this thread with the question.. if I am to do business, who am I to not do business with so we may better destroy them?

Presuming we will not be going to war any sooner than 19 turns from now, it can safely be said the first trade of the game does not have much difference on any future war, other than the fact that we are making France 100 gold richer.

Trevman · June 25, 2002, 20:26

With the results of the intermediate turn, I must change my stance to fully supporting a war effort. We are completely bottled by two civs. France will have to go since they have the best land, but on the other hand, America is probably weaker. Still, preying on weaklings is cowardly so onwards to France and victory!

civman2000 · June 25, 2002, 20:37

No fair mixing "no war" and banana, i only wnat to vote banana!

Ninot · June 25, 2002, 20:39

muwahahaha, its us evil peacenicks trying to get the banana vote for our own!

just consider the third option an abstain. I intend to have no peace.. only turmoil.

Kingof the Apes · June 25, 2002, 20:58

I agree with Sir Ralph, we should stick with our current plan and when that is completed go after America.

GePap · June 25, 2002, 22:14

With the Americans in the game, even if the majority decides on war with France, would sticking with plan Pink make total sense? Would we not also need at least one more spearman to defend Banana HQ in case the Americans try anything? Also, we don't know if the Americans are trully in the same jungle, or are above it in nice, fertile lands, an since they are also industrious, they might become very strong while we fight Fance to the death. Perhaps we should ammend Plan Pink to take into account current conditions?

notyoueither · June 26, 2002, 00:04

Plan Pink can easily accomodate an extra Spearman garrison for Banana HQ.

It can also adjust for either France or America as being the target. It is mainly a production and worker plan after all. Tactics to be determined later.

As a matter of fact, I specifically mentioned the strong posibility of finding a civ at just about the spot we have found the Americans.

Plan Pink gets us an army capable of a short, sharp war in the shortest time possible, and leaves us capable of building 4 veterans at a time.

notyoueither · June 26, 2002, 00:15

I believe some of the questions you ask show why we should no longer trade gpt for tech.

On top of the fact that it is usually cheaper to wait until you can pay by lump sum I give you this scenario.

There is a third civ out beyond the French and the US. That civ (let's call it x) could very well be Aztec or Roman. Suppose we do everything to plan for war with France and trade gpt with the US. 5 turns before we commence against France, civ x attacks the US. What do we do?

If we do not attack the US as well, there is every chance that civ x will overcome them and we will have a superior ai on our border. Worse, if we procede with our attack on France and knock them for 6, we will have weakened our best potential ally against the stronger civ x.

However, if we switched and also went after the US, our chances of coming up with a capitol with minimal loss to ourselves would increase. We would then gain our objective and block civ x from expansion (we win twice).

I conclude that specific plans are difficult to make at this time. However, general principles are very good ideas. One such general principle would be to avoid gpt deals at this time. Keep our options as open as possible.

notyoueither · June 26, 2002, 00:21

When 1 civ is trailing another, but they are both ahead of you...

It might be better to trade for tech with the trailer. That gives them more cash added to their own to buy more tech from the leader. That makes the new tech cheaper for us when we buy it.

Believe me. We are going to be at the end of the tech conga-line until the late Medieval at the earliest. It is critical that we do everything we can to reduce the cost of tech for ourselves or we will fall hopelessly behind.

FrostyBoy · June 26, 2002, 01:17

I think we are lacking in the map, we don't know what the french have and we don't know what the americans have, Wouldn't it be wiser to head for map making and ask the americans for the world map? or even with the french? I think until we can see what we are getting ourselves into, we will be fighting blind.

notyoueither · June 26, 2002, 01:27

Or we could explore to see for ourselves.

MapMaking is likely further in the future than the end of the first war. Maybe just this side of the beginning. That would be good.

However, Sn00py has hit it on the head. Specific commitment to one war or the other, To one civ as friend or the other is premature.

civman2000 · June 26, 2002, 08:19

If we see iron in france, take france. WE don;t want to have no iron after going after america and then face an iron-armed, stronger france

Jon Shafer · June 26, 2002, 10:45

We need to gear up for war with either country right now, and adapt plans a few turns before the fight begins (10 or so turns). First we must investigate more of French and American land, to see what lies open to us. If there's a massive plain to our north that America is sitting on, and they only expanded into the jungle because of the dyes, then they may be a better choice. We will simply have to scout the land more. Ninot, try to hold off on anything serious with either country at the moment, since they are both potential targets.

Kuciwalker · June 26, 2002, 11:09

America may be weaker, or France may be weaker. We don't know. America may have better terrain and more resources for the taking, of France may. We don't know. America may be the better choice, or France may be the better choice. WE DON'T KNOW.

This is a slight problem.

ProfessorChaos · June 26, 2002, 11:43

As Skywalker says We don't know who is weaker so I say we go and attack france because they have better terrain than the USA and we need bettter terrain we are stuck in the middle of a JUNGLE.

kring · June 26, 2002, 20:28

Quote:

Originally posted by ProfessorChaos
As Skywalker says We don't know who is weaker so I say we go and attack france because they have better terrain than the USA and we need bettter terrain we are stuck in the middle of a JUNGLE.

Since we don't know who is weaker, to attack due to what limited terrain we know about is unwise and could lead to our destruction.

We need more info on both civs' lands, cities, and units. Then we can make a hopefully wise decision, a more informed one anyway.

Remember, knowledge is power; lack of knowledge can get you killed.

We do have plenty of time to explore and both civs are fairly close. Continue our military builds and adapt our goals as we learn more of the map.

CapitanGarlic · June 27, 2002, 17:45

Everyone wants to beat up the silly French!

Vive Apolyton!

Kuciwalker · June 27, 2002, 17:54

I believe that what little information we have points to the French as the best target.

kring · June 27, 2002, 22:36

That is why we need more information. Making decisions on little information is bad planning and a good way to lose a poor start game (or even a great start game).

Knowledge is power: including the power to make informed decisions!

ThePlagueRat · July 1, 2002, 20:40

Diplomacy, Diplomacy, Diplomacy... cautious, annoyed, furious...
- The only way to go. They'll get pissed off when you bugger them for all they have got. We need a bigger army... to outnumber them. Then we can probably get all techs by cut-throat diplomacy, and make war if that's neccesary?

Here's the receipt:

1.Demand a tech.
2. Make the Pink Frogs furious. Demand more... and even more.
3.Build up defenses. And then outnumber them.
4. Make the Frogs engage first. (giving us the patriotic bonus)
5. Offer peace, for all techs. Or invade France?
6. Stop unit prod. and build libraries, for culture and intellect!

Otherwise, they'll look upon us as bull's manour and give us nothing! Ok, foreign minister... what do you say?

Robber Baron · July 1, 2002, 22:32

If the French have iron (which seems likely, given the terrain), and twice as many productive cities as we have (which they definitely will, by the time this strategy comes to fruition), then the "patriotic bonus" will be no match for their onslaught. First strike is self-defense, in this case.