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Old June 26, 2002, 12:44   #1
planetfall
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What are keys lessons for each difficulty jump?
Ever get tired of never learning this game and asking tons of questions? Oh, well here goes, again. Curious as to what the normal learning curve looks like.

chieftain
need to learn basics of game


chieftain->warlord
new lessons that need to be mastered
-- happiness
-- basic diplomacy

warlord->regent
new lessons that need to be mastered
??
??

regent->monarch
new lessons that need to be mastered
??
??

monarch->emperor
new lessons that need to be mastered
??
??

emperor->diety
new lessons that need to be mastered
??
??

Just started my first regent level game. It is feeling strange. Here is what I am discovering:
1. typical avg start
-- 1:2 civs on continent.
-- only 1 luxury on start continent
-- no horses!!
-- no navigation beyond continent without sacrificing galleys

2. early archer gambit works just as well at regent as at warlord

3. problems increased
-- corruption
-- happiness
-- improvements build order delayed

4. resulting play changes
-- may change standard expansion build order to deal with corruption and happiness
-- may delay transition out of depositism in order to count military as one happy face
-- courthouses are suddenly much earlier in build order
-- coliseums are now included in build order
-- FP must be built ASAP, early in middle ages
-- if switch to republic too early, happiness slider needs to move from 10 to 30%
-- management of city production balance needs to reviewed at least every two turns
-- no longer can switch between war for techs and research techs but must plan on trading or purchasing techs.
-- have to start sacrificing pop for build queue



Questions:
1. Are these normal reactions to this level jump?

2. What are the key new skills to acquire at regent level?

3. Suggestions?


4. Aside, how did my status change from "settler" to "prince", number of posts?
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Old June 26, 2002, 13:24   #2
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You'll need to play more games to decide what is 'typical', but this is a very interesting idea for a thread. I am thinking of moving from Regent to Monarch and i am wondering what to expect, too.

As to what is a typical start position, I am playing a game at Regent, and I started on a nice grass & jungle continent. The Romans share it with me, but expanded so much slower, now I have control of 80% of the continent. I have links to 3 different luxuries, plus horses and iron. Also it seems there are islands i can get to with galleys.

So I can't say how much of your starting position is difficulty-related.

You do need to worry about corruption and happiness (although I control happiness through improvements, wonders and luxury resources, and never set the luxury slider > 0).
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Old June 26, 2002, 15:29   #3
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it is difficult moving up difficulty levels. you learn to beat the game blindfolded on one level, and it seems to beat you at everything you do next level. i only recently got a handle on monarchy, and can hold my own, but have not surpassed it completely.
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Old June 26, 2002, 15:52   #4
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In my experience, there are two major factors which require the most adjustment:

1) Happiness (or lack thereof)

2) Tech progress

As you advance up the difficulty ladder, it is more difficult to keep your citizens happy, and you have less time to do things. The tech race speeds up the higher you go, and you have shorter and shorter windows of opportunity to do certain things.

I'm stubborn. My response to the tech rate once I got to Monarch? I started breaking things. I used to be a builder. Not anymore. No time. I've dabbled with Emperor, and I have even less time to do things there. An attempt at early warfare failed, due to the fact that on Emperor, 350bc isn't "early." It's the start of the middle ages.

I picked up a game my girlfriend started on Regent lately, and it felt like I had all the time in the world to do things. I could build and fight - at the same time!

The other response to the tech situation is to buy tech off the AI until your economy is properly set up and you can begin researching toward a tech lead. You can do this. I, due to the aforementioned stubborn streak, hate paying the AI for tech, but it certainly works. I'd just rather beat it out of them.

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Old June 26, 2002, 16:04   #5
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hi ,

, intresting , ......

, a lot can depend on the setting of the "default" AI level , .....

have a nice day
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Old June 26, 2002, 17:18   #6
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Let's see...

Warlord to Regent (where I play)...

Commerce Management... You have to do this correctly, lest you fall behind in tech. Regent is where the player and the AI are on even footing in terms of handicaps.

Advanced Diplomacy... You need to get new techs as soon as possible, even if it means contacting the AI civs almost every turn. Failure to do so can result in lost wonders and an obsolete military.

Alliance / MPP Manipulation... At warlord and chieftan, it isn't too difficult to clobber an AI opponent, or even 3 at one time, alone. At Regent, you'll need to get the AI to do a big share of the dirty work, and clean up the survivors (on both sides).

Full Assault Forces... Bring defensive units along with your attackers to hold your conquered territory, because there's usually going to be a large counterattack coming after your first wave.
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Old June 26, 2002, 17:20   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by panag
hi ,

, intresting , ......

, a lot can depend on the setting of the "default" AI level , .....

have a nice day
What specifically does this setting change? I've seen you mention it numerous times.
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Old June 26, 2002, 17:39   #8
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I moved from Emperor to Diety recently and won my first game. It was definitely difficult to master, because you have to overcome ENORMOUS cheating by the AI.

Things I learned I MUST do, that I didn't necessarily have to do in Emp:

1. Early Ancient Era militaristic take-over/weaking of at least 2 nearby civs. If you don't do this you're already toast. Might as well Ctrl-Shft-Q it. Building settlers is useless because by the time it's produced, the other AI civs have already established 4 cities a piece. You have to get your cities via conquest, even that early.

2. Take all their tech. Because you will NEVER keep up with AIs tech on your own. Set science to zero through much of the game and use money / wars to get tech.

3. Become a foriegn policy Puppet-master. Found it a necessity to keep the other powerful civs distracted and wasting their resources fighting each other. Used money and bribes to start wars against the most powerful opponents and then stepped back and let them all weaken each other. Frequently propped up weaker civs so other's wouldn't get too powerful. I once gave mobile warfare AND my only source of oil to the Japanese for 20 turns so they could fight off a complete take-over by the powerful French. While they were fighting a stalemate I worked on domestically improving my civ with powerplants, factories, etc.

4. Luck. Don't need it to win in Emp. but you do in Diety.

-Apolex
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Old June 26, 2002, 17:45   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by dunk999


What specifically does this setting change? I've seen you mention it numerous times.
hi ,

well , many things , for one or the other reason the AI acts different , its like he use's his units in a more tactical way , tends to get more for the dollar , is more agressive , goes after your luxury , but with a more intresting way , ....

there has been loads of talk , but one thing is for sure , when you use it , and with a deity yourself , it is more the less acceptable , ....
put then basic barbarian as rifleman , advanced as infantry and the sea unit as a destroyer , with them at raging , you are of for a spin , .... , .......

when you put the comp at deity , but dont know it that good , you can always give yourself more units , or less for the comp , .....

making a map for yourself is also fun , it take's time but its nice and lots of fun , ....

have a nice day

Last edited by Panag; June 26, 2002 at 17:52.
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Old June 26, 2002, 18:29   #10
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Apolex-- thank you for the hard core suggestions. As I am slowly, painfully moving up the levels, it is becoming more and more apparent the only way to win is:
1. fight a lot
2. use a lot of bartering
3. redirect AI's to self destruction
4. ignore most research.

It is so ironic. Take the way you are told to play the game and then do the opposite, or die.
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Old June 26, 2002, 18:46   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by planetfall
Apolex-- thank you for the hard core suggestions. As I am slowly, painfully moving up the levels, it is becoming more and more apparent the only way to win is:
1. fight a lot
2. use a lot of bartering
3. redirect AI's to self destruction
4. ignore most research.

It is so ironic. Take the way you are told to play the game and then do the opposite, or die.
hi ,

, the more research , the more power , ....

one thing to use is "peace true power" , .....

tip , try to start ones with more tech and a bit more money , and maybe in a certain age , ...

have a nice day
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Old June 26, 2002, 20:06   #12
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At any level I play at up to and including Emperor I ALWAYS take out as many civs around me as possible. I believe it is the only way to be dominant especially in the higher levels. I pound as many as I can to death early on.
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Old June 26, 2002, 23:58   #13
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In addition to Arrian's comments, PF, it is obvious from the many comments that early warfare, no, early damage to nearby civs, becomes very important as you progress up-level.

I would add to the above comments that setting a game strategy and beelining for techs becomes very important as well.

Typical early beelines:
Iron Working
The Wheel / Horseback Riding
Mapmaking
Literature
Monarchy or The Republic

In that latest "Civ3 ain't great" thread, someone made the point that there is little strategy differentiation because you need to do everything well; I disagree somewhat... you need to pick a game-specific strat and execute that extremely well, especially on the higher levels.

[Not that I don;t get my ass kicked with regularity]
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Old June 27, 2002, 04:20   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by panag
one thing to use is "peace true power" , .....
Unless you're a pacifist, it's "peace through power".

Now, if you're from New York City, you might pronounce "through" as "true", but you should still write it as "through". After all, it is only by maintaining some basic commonality of language that we'll ever be able to understand one another. Of course, some people will always be enigmas....
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Old June 27, 2002, 08:42   #15
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Hi all,

Just thought I'd share some of my experiences with you.

I've been stuck at regent level for the longest time now. 1.21f is nearly perfect but it is a great challenge. Haven't been able to win on this level, except for maybe one or two times with a high score at the end. And that was just plain dumb luck I think.

Anyway, I've realized what my errors have been since making the transition from chieftain to regent. It has to do with not trading/beating tech out of the AI properly, and poor T/S/L rate management. Let me explain briefly.

I think one problem I have that needs correcting is right at the very beginning. Early war is vital to gaining the advantage. You need to either beat tech out of your neighbors while maintaining the military edge over them until the end of the game. Kill them off at the right time, meaning when they have given everything they can to you and can't give any more. So my mistake is this; I have been trying to set up 4 cities in addition to my capital before engaging in war with my neighbors. I believe that three cities in addition to the capital would be enough. The extra time I waste producing that fourth settler more often than not costs me the game. I don't have the proper strength to beat people up and as a consequence fall behind in tech. Then I die around the late industrial to early modern age.

Another mistake I've been making is not adjusting my rate sliders after I've built up my infrastructure. Sure you can max out your money rate and just buy or beat tech out of the AI, however....After you reach the late medieval/early industrial tech's become so expensive and the AI is usually unwilling to sell them to you. You are technilogically inferior and can't even beat them up at this point. In other words, "game over man!!!!"

What I realize is you must adjust the rate sliders to slowly shift from making beaucou (sp?) money to bringing up your science rate. Then you will still be able to have decent techs to use to beat up your opponents and extort whatever from them for the rest of the game.

Now I must go, get through another day at work, and then give my ideas a try. Hopefully I'm right about this, we'll find out.
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Old June 27, 2002, 08:50   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by panag


hi ,

well , many things , for one or the other reason the AI acts different , its like he use's his units in a more tactical way , tends to get more for the dollar , is more agressive , goes after your luxury , but with a more intresting way , ....

there has been loads of talk , but one thing is for sure , when you use it , and with a deity yourself , it is more the less acceptable , ....
put then basic barbarian as rifleman , advanced as infantry and the sea unit as a destroyer , with them at raging , you are of for a spin , .... , .......

when you put the comp at deity , but dont know it that good , you can always give yourself more units , or less for the comp , .....

making a map for yourself is also fun , it take's time but its nice and lots of fun , ....

have a nice day
If I put the AI difficulty level at Diety, does he get the bonus units for Diety even if I play at Regent? I think the AI gets 8 defensive ground units, 2 settlers, and a couple workers to start the game on Diety.
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Old June 27, 2002, 09:00   #17
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At Monarch you need to pick a plan early and execute it. The most common one starts with researching basic military tech quickly, then hoarding gold while employing the military tech to extort new tech and gain land. Monarch's not that great a jump. Most of your winning games at lower levels might be winners at this level too.

At Emperor, you have to try hard, employ the ideas from these boards and, at least for me, endure some setbacks while your production disadvantages make you behave like the tourtise running against the AI's hare. Patience and cunning. There's no need to be ahead all the time and the fun here is often the late game comeback and bargaining your way to tech parity, if not a tech lead. Civ III actually favors the defense and peaceful (strong) civs win the late games with SS turned on.

On Deity, I haven't got a clue.
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Old June 27, 2002, 09:20   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by planetfall
Apolex-- thank you for the hard core suggestions. As I am slowly, painfully moving up the levels, it is becoming more and more apparent the only way to win is:
1. fight a lot
2. use a lot of bartering
3. redirect AI's to self destruction
4. ignore most research.

It is so ironic. Take the way you are told to play the game and then do the opposite, or die.
Well I don't agree with 2-4. I am winning at Regent with consistency, and I hardly try to get anything through the AI (except when they beg for peace!) and do almost all my own research. My formula at Regent is to expand quickly and stay at war. Have a lot of cities and commerce to do your research. I build most of the wonders, temples and marketplaces in all cities, and usually win the game with (and at the time of) cavalry units.
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Old June 27, 2002, 10:57   #19
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To Haupt. Dietrich
___________________________________________
Another mistake I've been making is not adjusting my rate sliders after I've built up my infrastructure. Sure you can max out your money rate and just buy or beat tech out of the AI, however....After you reach the late medieval/early industrial tech's become so expensive and the AI is usually unwilling to sell them to you. You are technilogically inferior and can't even beat them up at this point. In other words, "game over man!!!!"
____________________________________________
Read Aeson's amazing thread on the cold map generator!!

It's ok to fall behind on tech and ok to be in "impossible situations." The damn game lasts forever. The AI is going to screw up. You can even help them screw up. If you are ready to pounce at the right time, you can pick up ground gradually. There is very nearly always a way to get back in the game. (I have more fun in the games when I'm struggling than in the perfect early wars type of outcome. Good thing too, since I'm not nearly as efficient as these other guys at getting a flying start.)
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Old June 27, 2002, 12:13   #20
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For me, chieftain was just a refreshing of basic civ terminology, and the second game I played (on warlord) also didn't taught me much.

The third game, on regent, was what started me to think more thoroughly on tactics and concepts, and while it is hard to miss a tech lead on the AIs, you get an idea about how they will trade everything amongst each other. It was, for me, the first level where I noticed just how much techs are worth to AIs.

In Monarch, the challenge became a bit more 'real', in that you need to understand diplo quite well, and if you don't pay attention someone will out-research you. Also, it is the level at which early warfare starts to be a winning tactic (on lower levels, it just is a nice bonus, not a necessity.) You start to value your workers more, and start to perfect your early build queues in order to out-expand the AIs. Further, you start to be more reflecting on the micromanagement issues: sliding the techrate nearly each turn to have the perfect gold/tech balance, palace (and other) prebuilds to make sure you get a wonder or a new unit first, etc.
Diplomacy gets a whole new meaning, fighting all civs at once is a sure way to loosing the game.

On Emperor, things get a whole lot more difficult. The AI's production bonuses start to kick in, you always get behind on tech in the ancient times, and must devise tactics to get equal. Either you extort them out of enemies, buy them through tax, or go for a southern-line research to be able to trade techs with the AI.

Further, depending on the situation, it is the easiest to have early wars, just to make sure you can both have a large empire, and some army running around. Otherwise you have one of the two. But, with a little difficulty, it is still possible to be a 'pure' builder, and winning the game without one battle. In fact, diplomatic victories are relatively easy to perform, if you get through the ancient era with enough territory and without long-standing enemies. SS is almost certain, you can be behind in tech in the modern age, and still build your spaceship.

Micromanaging certain things is a necessity, and so is a good diplomatic play. Rare are the games in which you don't need to enlist some allies at some point, if only to keep them from joining the other side. Also warfare can become more intimidating, as you see the huge stacks of AI units moving around from time to time (I haven't seen this on easier levels, but I haven't played one of these with 1.21f)

Deity? I don't know yet. I'm growing pretty confident in emperor, in that I can win with any civ in nearly every starting position, but I have yet to pull of a cultural victory. This annoys me, as culture is always one of my biggest goals in a game, so lacking a cultural victory in emperor proofs that I still need some perfecting of strategies to do. It might be needed to play more on huge maps in order to achieve it...

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Old June 27, 2002, 12:27   #21
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DeepO,

I think the only way to win a cultural victory on the highest levels (Emperor/Diety) would be, ironically enough, through warmongering like crazy. It is highly unlikely that you would be able to get a 20,000 cp city on Emperor, so you're shooting for 100,000 civ-wide cp's, which requires that no one AI has 50,000 or more. On that level of play, the AI will most likely be able to come up with that. Therefore, the best way to win culturally is to beat down the AI. The more cities you have, the more culture you will have, and the opposite will be true for the AI. Basically, you win by having 50 cities with temples, rather than 20 cities with everything.

-Arrian
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Old June 27, 2002, 13:04   #22
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Arrian, I agree, but this is exactly where my tactics still lack. Either I am ultra-aggresive, but then I have great difficulties building up culture and even loose cities flipping back! Or, OTOH, I play culturally, while only doing a little ancient war, and I don't have enough cities to get to 100,000. I still have to balance it better, and in that respect start to prefer the Persians: cheap libraries are better then cheap temples, and you get a UU which can be used up until musketmen come around.

I must say that part of the reason why I have yet to win culturally is that I tend to grab the first type of victory I can. When on road for a cultural vic, it is quite easy to score a diplomatic one earlier. Quite a few games finished like that...

Oh, and 50 cities with only temples? I tend to have 50 fully equipped cities, and some 50 more with only temples/libraries. If, at the end of the game, I've got only double of the culture of the next AI, I had a terrible game

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Old June 27, 2002, 13:28   #23
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DeepO,

Yeah, that's how my games tend to go too (though I'm talking about Monarch). I end up dominating before winning culturally.

Of course, culture and domination go hand-in-hand, since you need culture to expand your borders.

Persia sounds like a good civ for Emperor... though I still prefer religious to scientific.

-Arrian
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Old June 27, 2002, 13:38   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by jshelr
To Haupt. Dietrich
___________________________________________
Read Aeson's amazing thread on the cold map generator!!

It's ok to fall behind on tech and ok to be in "impossible situations." The damn game lasts forever. The AI is going to screw up. You can even help them screw up. If you are ready to pounce at the right time, you can pick up ground gradually. There is very nearly always a way to get back in the game. (I have more fun in the games when I'm struggling than in the perfect early wars type of outcome. Good thing too, since I'm not nearly as efficient as these other guys at getting a flying start.)
jshelr:

Thanks for the tips. I did read Aeson's cold map generator thread and was blown away. I agree that there must always be ways to get back into the game. It is up to the player to find out how. Half the fun of Civ3 or any game for that matter is figuring out how to improve and meet each challenge. And yeah, I'm light years behind these Civ3 god's when it comes to getting off to a flying start but that's ok. Still finding that Civ3 is a fun and challenging game to play.
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Old June 27, 2002, 14:21   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
Persia sounds like a good civ for Emperor... though I still prefer religious to scientific.
I did so for a long time, but I'm partial atm. If you build for a ancient war, there is a good chance that you have access to libraries by the time you want to build something cultural in your first cities. In that case, building libraries is obvious: temples are no good for happyness, and libraries give more culture each turn. And with the Persians, you almost always use up your golden age in the ancient times, which you should be able to plan right in time for building libraries everywhere.
The only real advantage to religous is the lack of anarchy when switching governments. It can be very hard to wait 4-8 turns when you're used to 1 turn. It's the only reason I still like the Egyptians. That and Cleo's nose, of course

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Old June 27, 2002, 14:34   #26
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What do you mean temples are no good for happiness?
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Old June 27, 2002, 15:11   #27
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well, no good maybe a bit of an exageration, but they will only give one extra content face, in stead of an unhappy one. That doesn't make much of a difference, certainly not when setting the slider to 10% happiness can mean 1-2 extra happy citizens in each city.

Libraries, from the other hand, produce 50% more science, so building a library in each city means you can set the happiness-slider to around 30% to get the same effect tech wise as without libraries. So, in my view, libraries are better for happiness than temples, and temples should only be built after libraries are in place.

And in newly conquered, non-corrupt territory, or in situations where a city is late blooming in between my core cities, I will always build a university before a temple. Happyness sure is important, but city improvements are the least effective way of handling problems. Luxuries is what you need, so if you can trade techs for luxuries, you have another point why you need to be good in research

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Old June 27, 2002, 16:02   #28
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Actually, I build exactly 1 cultural building in totally corrupt cities: a temple. Then, assuming it's not in a warzone, the next priority is a marketplace. If it needs an aqueduct, it gets one.

The temple and marketplace will keep that city happy enough. You're right that luxuries are the key. The 8 luxuries, with markets and 10-20% luxury spending will keep your entire civ in WLTKD.

Temples are more powerful in the early game simply because they can be built right away. Later, they allow you to build cathedrals, which are powerful if you have the Sistine... which I insist on having. Libraries are very nice in good cities... but I'm long past the days of rushing libraries in capture towns. That's a waste.

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Old June 27, 2002, 16:32   #29
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An awful lot of good points in this thread (which I won't repeat ).

My $0.02 (relating primarily to moving from Regent up through Emperor):

You must learn to exploit the civ traits bestowed upon your selected civ. I am having a great deal of fun and challenge adapting to the game conditions generated by the "random settings." Map conditions, neighboring civs, and your own civ all combine into a different feel each game -- and a different set of tactical and strategic requirements to victory.

If you always play XXX civ on a standard pangea, 5 billion, normal, temperate, etc., then my sense (shared with others here) is that the fundamental challenges moving from level to level are (1) dealing with increased unhappiness, and (2) understanding the need to assert oneself more forcefully early in the game.

But if you play different civs in different settings, the difficulty level really magnifies the civ specific traits. Play any style you want on Warlord (builder, warmonger, buildmonger) with any civ you like -- as you develop your skills at the fundamentals -- making cities productive, making your empire productive -- you will come to the point that you can win all your games. If, on Monarch, you're handed the Zulu as your civ, you need to be able to effectively exploit Militaristic, Expansionist and the Impi. If, OTOH, you are handed the Babylonians, you need to be able to exploit Scientific, Religious and the Bowman.

It's my sense after six months with this game that the failure to effectively take advantage of your civ's traits to their potential will cost you a decent piece of your available relative "advantages" -- and the higher you go, the more precious that bit of relative "advantage" becomes.

Catt

[Disclaimer: I have only played a few games on Deity and haven't won there. The best players on Diety seem to play a pretty standard "game plan" to beat Diety, regardless of civ or map settings -- so maybe my belief on the importance of civ traits resembles a bell curve -- not so important at Chieftan and Deity, most important at Regent and Monarch. Then again, advice may prove silly when I've gotton to the point where I can do anything I like on Monarch with any civ in any map and win - I'm certainly not there yet ].
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Old June 27, 2002, 16:50   #30
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Arian, that is a difference in style issue, and I don't think one is better than the other. If I play a religous civ, I will always rush temples in conquered cities, when possible. With the Persians, however, rushing libraries is easier...

For totally corrupt cities, I go for the cheapest cultural building, and after that start on a marketplace, or a university. Never build aquaducts and certainly no hospitals, it's better to have a content city than a big one.
If there is a little to gain from building improvements, the cities will only produce workers, which, when not needed anymore, will be added to core cities.

In cities which have a chance of producing some shields, I'll go for a courthouse right after the first culture. Even if it takes 80 turns, it could be worth it (a little). These sometimes get rushed when I have excess money laying around. After that, I'll go for an aquaduct, then a marketplace. I never, ever build a hospital in a city that doesn't have a marketplace already.

BTW, the only exception to this is that in any city producing 5 or more shields I'll build a factory. If this is before a courthouse, I might think of putting a courthouse in first. If this is before an aquaduct, I rarely build a worker, and even more rarely build a aquaduct. Those factories are just to good to forget, and even if they take 48 turns to build, they are more than worth it, certainly with Hoover (which, in my experience, only works when a city has a factory in place)

Cathedrals can be powerful with Sistine, but at Emperor there are many games where you have to miss that wonder, as it is on a direct path to education, and therefore quite attractive to AI scientists. Bach is easier to get. But, at any rate, with a scientific civ (Babs included) I like to go for a university before a temple, but after a marketplace when my happiness is dragging. And the situation dictates whether I build temples/cathedrals before a hospital or not... I prefer not.

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