Stuck in Lodi again.

[planetfall]

Remember that old song "stuck in lodi again".

Some of my civ games seem like I am stuck in Lodi again. {For non US viewers, Lodi CA USA is a small town in the middle of the Sacramento Valley with not much around it but the heat of the Valley in the summer. Temps usually 90-100's and no rain}


Well I am stuck again. Tempted to give up on the game, but then wouldn't learn. Just looking for some idea of how to play with a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel.

Situation:

Big continent:
#1 Russia
in techs, land mass, wonders, military,
culture

#3 Greece
weak military
#4 India
weak military

Moderate continent
#2 Germany {me}
Russia has 7 more cities than I do, I have a weak military. Just traded with everyone to close tech game to 2 techs behind. Russia is starting to explore my coastlines.

Small continent
#5 Americans

We are either near the end of the Middle ages or start of industrial. I just jumped ages.

My perceived problems:
1. weak military would seem to invite attacks from Russia. They have rifleman, since my last turn trades I now can start building musketmen and canons.
2. losing production race, Russia's lead keeps on increasing each turn. Their score change/turn is double mine.
3. getting 1/4 wonders
4. water barrier to big continent. Just got navigation.
5. since just traded for techs nothing to trade for military alliance. And not sure good idea since other two same continent civs have weak military. Inspiring a war with Russia might make them stronger instead of weaker.
6. middle of civs, 3/5, with happiness at 75%.


Big problem is I can't think of any way to come out ahead. Even if survive until panzers I still need to be able to afford them and provide transportation to another continent.

If attack Amer, they are like me with 1 luxury. Might gain more land mass, but is it worth it at this stage? To go to big continent is a no win as Russia will get ROP with India and Greece.

Only plan I have come up with is sticking it out until panzers, and trying to build up India and Greece with trades to kind of tone down Russian development. Right now Russia graph shows about 1/3 total world power. Ger, India, Greece are about the same with Amer slowly losing power.

Ideas?




Am I particularly slow with this game, or are others just not posting their problems?

[Arrian]

Build up your military a bit, to deter attack. Build some transports (well, galleons at this point).


Make a note of key resources/luxuries on or near the coastline of the big continent. Keep a strike force sufficient to take and hold 1-2 cities sitting in ships off the coast of the big continent. If (or should I say when) the AI's get into a fight, pick a side (probably the weaker side... Greece? India?), sign an alliance for whatever benifit you can get (gold, tech), and grab a coastal city or two that have resources/luxuries you lack. Then reinforce them heavily with infantry/artillery.

Develop you home lands as well as you can, concentrating on your economy. To the extent that it's possible, sell things to the AI's for gold/turn.

Industrialize. If you have to pay for coal, so be it. Get Panzers, mobilize, and build as many as you can afford. Then move them to your mainland possessions. Then... well... pick a fight. Again, target resources and luxuries. If you have a strong ally helping out (say.... Russia), you can pick off the truely useful cities and let your ally bang away at the rest. If you're strong enough, lay waste to the enemy core yourself.

QUESTION: do you have a forbidden palace yet?

If the answer is no, then you may want to be more aggressive now. Pick a civ that has some nice land (preferably on the main continent, but not necessarily) and invade (if you can for some reason goad them into declaring war on you, do it). I know your military is weak, but it doesn't have to stay that way. Get yourself a Great Leader (you're Germany, after all) and rush the FP. That will GREATLY help your financial situation. Think of a military buildup as an investment.

-Arrian

[planetfall]

Originally posted by Arrian
Build up your military a bit, to deter attack. Build some transports (well, galleons at this point).

Started doing that as went from 2 pikes to 15. Still weak. Advisor said "swords, swords" but I wanted an upgrade path

Make a note of key resources/luxuries on or near the coastline of the big continent. Keep a strike force sufficient to take and hold 1-2 cities sitting in ships off the coast of the big continent. If (or should I say when) the AI's get into a fight, pick a side (probably the weaker side... Greece? India?), sign an alliance for whatever benifit you can get (gold, tech), and grab a coastal city or two that have resources/luxuries you lack. Then reinforce them heavily with infantry/artillery.

Develop you home lands as well as you can, concentrating on your economy. To the extent that it's possible, sell things to the AI's for gold/turn.

Good idea, have not tried to get gpt deals.

QUESTION: do you have a forbidden palace yet?

Beijin.



If the answer is no, then you may want to be more aggressive now. Pick a civ that has some nice land (preferably on the main continent, but not necessarily) and invade (if you can for some reason goad them into declaring war on you, do it). I know your military is weak, but it doesn't have to stay that way. Get yourself a Great Leader (you're Germany, after all) and rush the FP. That will GREATLY help your financial situation. Think of a military buildup as an investment.

-Arrian [/QUOTE]


Thought I was smart by sacrificing military to build production capability {courthouse-temple-cathedral-lib-[some markets]-[some banks]-[some ports]-[some granaries]-[some colliseums]-[now adding some university]} but gap is widening. Score change per turn was Russia +9:Ger +6, and now is Russia +12:Ger +7. Hopefully was because Russia has RR and I don't know if have coal.

-PF

[Arrian]

Planetfall,

Forget score. The scoring system is screwed up. It is totally dependent upon size (territory and population). Good choice on pikes vs. swords, btw. Do you have horses?

What actually matters:

Production
Wealth (which also means tech, of course)
Resources (including luxuries)

If you manage your empire properly, you can outproduce the Russians. It won't show up on the graph until you start taking other people's cities, though.

Resources appear to be your problem. Give me the list of what you have local access to, what you're importing, and what is available for you to import.

-Arrian

[Theseus]

Put everything into Cavs, Musket, and Galleons... EVERYTHING!!!

Follow Arrian's advice; I would try to focus on valuable coastal cities under 7 pop.

Bypass Nationalism and beeline for Infantry.

[planetfall]

Originally posted by Arrian
Planetfall,

Forget score. The scoring system is screwed up. It is totally dependent upon size (territory and population). Good choice on pikes vs. swords, btw. Do you have horses?

No, China was all archers and a couple swords

What actually matters:
Production

#2 here, but no idea of how to measure: gap change-- steady, increasing, decreasing

Wealth (which also means tech, of course)

about average here, roughly 300 gold. sacrificed gold for tech catchup.

Resources (including luxuries)

only 1 on entire continent

If you manage your empire properly, you can outproduce the Russians. It won't show up on the graph until you start taking other people's cities, though.

Resources appear to be your problem. Give me the list of what you have local access to, what you're importing, and what is available for you to import.
-Arrian

Ahha, a homework assignment. Tomorrow.
Do have iron. Can't recall which luxury I
have.

Key wonders:
Hanging gardens--nope, wish, but 3 civs were on the way when I got the tech
Sistine--yep, but barely, whew
Copernius--Berlin
Magellean--another squeaker, by one turn.
Smith--yeah,
Bach--against 3AI's, when they have a head start. Sounded like a rathole stratgey.
UnSuff-- no one started yet.
Newton-- 2 AI's building it already.
Only SW, FP.

--PF

[planetfall]

Originally posted by Theseus
Put everything into Cavs, Musket, and Galleons... EVERYTHING!!!

Follow Arrian's advice; I would try to focus on valuable coastal cities under 7 pop.

Bypass Nationalism and beeline for Infantry.

cavs-- to get need horses, best trade offer for horses was
2 techs
7 gpt
world map

Beelining for ReplParts. Won't know until get ReplParts where coal and oil are located.

Ok get the point, get 1/2 of production at least into musketmen so can upgrade.

Thanks

[SultanofATL]

Easy solution:

Ally with Russia against one of the other powers. Let Russia fight the first part of the war then hop in and take as much land as you can. Eventually you can settle for peace and leave Catherine to fend for herself. Bid your time and then switch sides. Get everyone else to gang up on Russia and force Catherine to capitulate to your every demand. Game won.

[Arrian]

He's Germany, he's gonna get nationalism as the "free" tech. No way to avoid it that I know of.

Besides, nationalism does allow mobilization, which could be useful in this case. He needs to pull off a big military buildup quick IF he's going to try and take a bite out of one of the mainland civs.

Mobilization could really help with that. Then he could invade, take some key cities, fortify them and make peace, dropping out of mobilization. Build up for a bit, mobilize again, punch out lots of Panzers, repeat.

-Arrian

[Jarvin]

I dont have any advice.
But "Lodi" is a great song, anyone who doesnt have it should get it.

[planetfall]

Originally posted by SultanofATL
Easy solution:

Ally with Russia against one of the other powers. Let Russia fight the first part of the war then hop in and take as much land as you can. Eventually you can settle for peace and leave Catherine to fend for herself. Bid your time and then switch sides. Get everyone else to gang up on Russia and force Catherine to capitulate to your every demand. Game won.

Non obvious solution. Interesting, will have to see how strategic resources show up to decide on which civ. Obviously with this twist I need 3/4rds to military. I had been relying too much on the "score" to evaluate civs. Thanks

PF

[dnassman]

Can you keep us posted on what you end up doing. I would like to know whether the strategy worked and which strategy you chose.

Would be much appreciated.

[LotC]

Originally posted by planetfall


cavs-- to get need horses, best trade offer for horses was
2 techs
7 gpt
world map

Beelining for ReplParts. Won't know until get ReplParts where coal and oil are located.

Ok get the point, get 1/2 of production at least into musketmen so can upgrade.

Thanks

You find out where your coal is with Steam Power. If you've already gotten SP and don't have any coal, you will want to take that into consideration. If you have to trade for it, it is definitely worth paying a premium price for.

[planetfall]

LotC-- sorry brain fart. Meant to write rubber and oil instead of

coal and oil

I only had 1 coal, so I had to change strategies. I switched production to workers, went from about 30 to 75, in order to RR continent. Each worker worked alone so if coal disappeared, some track would be laid. The AI is tightening up on trades. After RRed, joined workers to cities and down to 30 workers again. After hospitals plan to join more cities and bring down to about 8-10 workers as I won't need them. Don't think it is worthwhile to disband works for just 2 shields. I have traded for sanitation and plan to add one hospital queue per turn.

dnassman-- glad you are enjoying my struggles. Eventually I hope to swim without the water wings of the forum group. Things I have learned so far:

• early attack is required. This works well for securing the continent and a few techs
  
• don't switch out of depositism until have happiness solved. Production gain of advanced govt will be offset by happiness loss. Switching ASAP does not work.
  
• happiness goal should be above 85%. Happiness of 70-75% does not work.
  
• as soon as have lit and navigation, get a foothold on big continent. {did not do, ugh, ugh}
  
• build small cav units after trading for horses, {10 units}. Mistake. Other civs all have infantry now.
  

I will give you all an end game report, but may be delayed by vacation.



Theseus--

Cavs, muskets, galleons.

Didn't catch the urgency. I have a few cavs, {10}. Finally have 6 galleons. didn't make enough muskets, still with "weak" vs Russia.
Don't want to replay game because I made early mistakes, but will complete just to see how many of the other low civs I can beat and how much I have to learn.

sultanofATL--Russia did not want to ally vs any civ on big continent. Guess I waited to late to try that approach.

Arrian--

resource problem

Great catch. I forgot 72% happiness is ok for wartime but not for peace. Opps. I lost so many WLTK events, it is ridiculous.

import/export data needed

Local--Fe(3), salt(1), wine(8), coal(1),rubber(4)
Import--ivory, horse
Export--wine(3)

Excess Luxury locations
Amer-spice
Grk/Ind--horse
Russia-horse, incense, silk, gems

"Weak Military"
inf=28
cav=10
art=8
gallery=6
pike=28

Just upgraded musket/riflemen/horses, but still weak.

To upgrade pikes would cost 3600 which I don't have.

Current techs
was able to trade with Greece for sanitation.
SciMethod best offer is 1000. I only have 400gold.
communism--don't want to offer.

Current diplomacy
MPP w/ Greece.
No one wants mil alliance, not even Grk vs Ind. This is a surprise as they are both "weak military" and Gk is sandwiched between Russia and India.
Can get MPP with non-Russia civs.

Current options
--Putting in some factories as don't think full production of all military will gain enough right now
--trying to get UnSuff so Russia, a demo, doesn't get it.
--India only has one rubber. yahoo. India is only 2 turns away. One location has coal and 2 luxuries, the other has rubber. But they also have infantry. Undecided if should just get over there with some force or wait a few turns. With MPP of Greece, thinking after see where oil is, I can get espionage and spies and hopefully bait India into declaring war. Particularily if build up war production but not too many modern war units. Drop back in tech research and get 3500 for upgrades to infantry from pikes.
-- Russia is 3 turns away, nice jungle but they do have RR so would throw "strong military" on whatever is there.
--get MPP vs Russia with all other civs. Should work since Russia has between 1/3 to 1/2 world power. And then spy on Russia until
they declare war with world. First want to try to get UnSuff to either force them to a different govt or at least decrease slightly their happiness. About impossible as they have locally about 6 luxuries plus hang gardens and bach.

--PF

[Arrian]

Planetfall,

Are you done with railroading? If so, try to sell your coal. You no longer need it.

See if you can sell the saltpeter. They have infantry... forget Cavalry.

Your list of luxury import/export/availability is missing two luxuries. You mention wine, ivory, incense, gems, silk and spices. Where are the dyes and furs? Russia?

I'd say wait until you can see oil. That's crucial, because of Panzers. Thank goodness you have rubber.

I think you should designate India as your target. Use Panzers. If you do not have oil... well, pick the weakest civ that does have oil, throw those 10 cav + artillery and a bunch of infantry at the city that controls it (bring a settler too), rush the harbor, switch to mobilization and churn out Panzers while holding on for dear life.

-Arrian

[planetfall]

Originally posted by Arrian
Planetfall,

Are you done with railroading? If so, try to sell your coal. You no longer need it.

good idea. Yes finished w/ RR.

See if you can sell the saltpeter. They have infantry... forget Cavalry.

That is why I only created 10. Guess they will have to be military police once get across the water

Your list of luxury import/export/availability is missing two luxuries. You mention wine, ivory, incense, gems, silk and spices. Where are the dyes and furs? Russia?

yes

I'd say wait until you can see oil. That's crucial, because of Panzers. Thank goodness you have rubber.

no kidding, and not just one. I was thinking of trying to get rubber from Russian jungles. ugh, glad did not have to go there

I think you should designate India as your target. Use Panzers. If you do not have oil... well, pick the weakest civ that does have oil, throw those 10 cav + artillery and a bunch of infantry at the city that controls it (bring a settler too), rush the harbor, switch to mobilization and churn out Panzers while holding on for dear life.

-Arrian

Agreed, refining is next, about 8 turns away. If I can't get India to declare, I will just
have to do it and hope there is no MPP with Russia and Greece doesn't have a ROP.

Definitely a much different game feel from warlord. Thanks again. Have a great weekend.

-PF

[Arrian]

You too. Let us know how things go.

-Arrian

[planetfall]

HI all.

Here is the review of the Stuck in Lodi game. It was
my first Regent level game, and found at least 12
new things to pay attention to. I have highlighted those
for posters looking for quick hints. If anything sounds
wrong let me know.

A lot of typing I hope you all enjoy it.


Review
======
Small Island Continent
Am- 10 cities

Medium Continent
Ger- 25 cities

Large Continent with a 1 tile isthmus connecting Right and Left.
Right Side: Russia- 33 cities
Left Side, west: India- 13 cities
Left Side, east: Greece 13 cities. 3 on Russian side, one to W, N and NE.

Year 1600-- all at peace
F11 {Germany}
GNP=2
Apr=3
Lit=4
Annual Income=4

Wonders: Sistine, Magellan, Smith, UnSuff, and Hoover.

Overview
======
Managed to pull out a win but a struggle.

Game Flow Updates & Notes to Self
===========================
Everyone is at peace so made MMP with Greece since Russia
is behaving herself and figure we can beat up on India. All of us
have "weak militaries" except Russia.

Year 1630-- MMP with Greece expires. Plan for 1630 was to either get
India to declare war or declare war on India. Instead in 1625 Russia declares
war on Greece and we are pulled into war also.

Only data on military strength was from power part of F8 screen:
Russia: 10.5 bars
Germany: 6.5 bars
Greece: 4.0 bars
India: 3.5 bars
Am: 2.5 bars


Note to Self #1
~~~~~~~~~~
look for strong military civ to declare war near end of MMP



Note to Self #2
~~~~~~~~~~
MMP might not be extended, plan better next time



Note to Self #3
~~~~~~~~~~~
Failing to plant spy 5-8 times will turn friendliest
of civs to declare war.

{After trying many many times to plant spies in Greece,
Greece declared war.}


Data once had spies in all civs: [1715]
Civ -- infantry -- jets -- bombers -- tanks
Russia -- 123 -- 0 -- 0 -- 2
Greece -- 32 -- 0 -- 0 -- 0
India -- 58 -- 0 -- 3 -- 0
Germany -- 54 -- 8 -- 3 -- 26
America -- 11 -- 0 -- 0 -- 0


Note to Self #4
~~~~~~~~~~
When in an unplanned war, quickly get as many
civs as possible to also declare war.


It was very cheap to pull India into war. If Russia got Greece, there would
be no stopping. I needed India to buy time. I was too far away, 3 turns by water,
and Greece was so weak, the war could be over by the time we found some
troops to help. America was just pulled in so the focus would be all on Russia,
turned out to be a good move. America was extremely weak and Russia could
not resist sending over some troops.

With India also involved, Russia could not go far into the Western half. Naturally
the three Grecian lone cites where ripe plums. Since the coalition was doing well to the South, I came in from the North East and secured some needed luxuries. I
luxury does not get multiplied much by a marketplace.

On the way over, I dropped a few ships south just to see if I could pick up any
lost Russian ships and see if America was doing anything in this war. Whew, what
a good move this turned out to be. Found an ironclad and transport. Barely got
them as I needed my DS for escort duty. The extra Magellan move allowed the
DS to get the ironclad and barely catch the transport on the next turn. Then
about 2 turns later, as I was still looking for American activity, I found 2 more
ironclad-transport pairs. That caught my attention. What's going on. Guess it
is time to look at the big map. Whoops, New York is Russian. Wow, when
did that happen? Could not let Russia get land so close, goodbye reinforcements.
Hello picket line. If any more Russian reinforcements are going to get thru,
they had better be prepared to fight. By cutting off the reinforcements,
we easily eliminated some land troops and allowed America to retake New York.


Note to Self #5
~~~~~~~~~~~
In wartime, at the end of each turn check the color of border cities.Look for
cities who have changed sides but have a small area of color on the map.

About now I am sitting back pretty smugly and thinking well maybe this
Regent level is not as bad as I thought. Russia only has 7 cities left, and
they have not requested peace once. Should have been a warning. Suddenly
some very very disturbing popups:
1. America has signed a peace treaty with Russia
Ok, that doesn't effect me. Ho, hum.
2. America has started the Manhattan Project
WHAT!?? Yikes. I do not like games with nukes. I would like nukes if
they were a small wonder, but Firaxis refuses to think about rescoping Manhattan
from a GW to a SW.
At first like I dummy I also started Manhattan, then I realized why bother?
I don't need the culture and dont have the techs for satellites. Therefore,
major switch of emphasis to the Amer city working on Manhattan.


Note to Self #6
~~~~~~~~~~~
Make sure preferences have turned off nukes.

With split forces Russia took a bit longer. Decided to close rather than
deal with a high tech hostile civ. With limited forces available for American
campaign it was slash and burn, no holding any cities. In the process discovered
some improvements have a sell option. Nice extra income. Interestingly
there is a link to the civopedia in case can't remember what improvements do.
Would be nice if this was also on the right side build list.


Note to Self #7
~~~~~~~~~~
Never abandon newly captured city without reviewing improvements. If want to
abandon, can sell and then abandon. If just abandon you lose the income.


I used to have bombers, and they discovered F15's. Nasty.


Note to Self #8
~~~~~~~~~~~
If America is a civ, forget bombing. F15's cream them.


Inquiry #1--
Any idea why a BS within 3 tiles of target and 4 jets flying air supremacy,
neither loses any jets or engages any F15's?

Boy does this game move fast. Only half way through America and
India starts Manhattan. This won't do, navy can't deal with F15's so off
to India they go. Indian big mistake they attacked Greece and started
Manhattan. After seeing Russias demise, Greece gladly accepted an
offer of ROP. Had to RR some connecting roads, but India was a piece
of cake.


Note to Self #9
~~~~~~~~~~
One way ROP is possible.


Unit line will stop civ with ROP but ROP will allow you to fly thru land to target civ.


Note to Self #10
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Foreign advisor does not always know what is saying.


Greece never failed me even though foreign advisor offered many warnings.


Note to Self #11
~~~~~~~~~~~~
When another civ is joining an alliance with you, their mood improves
if you let them have some cities.

At this point, ready to just let the game run out. But 1 turn before the
end of the ROP, Greece started Manhattan. Still no satellites. Give me
a break, I was fighting wars. No time to research. Anyway big mistake.
Using ROP before starting a war wreaks the game. Well, might be
needed at deity, but at this level, forget abusing it. End game in 2 turns.
Boring, but it was a long game and I have many things to remember.

Inquiry #2 --
Any idea why Germany would be paying maintenance on a Russian
worker?

One of 7 workers was a Russian. How, why? I thought foreign workers
were free of maintenance?


Note to Self #12
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Forget Score. Forget productivity. GNP and power curve is everything.


Well that's it. No longer stuck in Lodi, {my brother is literally still stuck
living in Lodi, but that is another story} I did learn some good lessons.
Thank you all for your interest and support.

--PF

[SABRA]

Planetfall you should talk about your experience in the democrazy game .
You seem to have a firm grasp on the game .
Intresting to read your stuff - a lot is learned from it !