Pondering....

[Velociryx]

Okay....so I'm heading to EB soonish (this weekend), and hungry for another TBS to sink my teeth into. I have heard that CTP2, Modded, is actually quite good.

I come directly from the SMAC/Civ3 experience (regarding both as flawed gems, but find myself drawn to SMAC's complexities over Civ3's simplicities)...I also like the bells and whistles SMAC offers (things like variability in governmental settings, Wonder Movies--nope...I never turned 'em off...that was my reward for saving up all those minerals!--that kinna thing.

Will I enjoy CTP2?

Not asking for anybody to convince me, as I'm already leaning heavily toward buying it...I guess I'm mostly asking what I'm in for?

(And, what mods come most highly recommended?)

-=Vel=-

[centrifuge]

Ctp2 out of the box has many flaws, 1st and foremost the weak AI. There are several great mods, Super Apolyton Pack(CTP2 as it should be) Cradle, MedMod2, and WAW. I recomend all of them. Try CTP2 vanilla style first, and then Mod it, you'll understand all of the hard work that some of these folks have put into (and continue to put into) making this a great game.

At $9.95(American) it is definetly worth the buy. (that last sentence seems to be my mantra these days). Have fun, and I hope you enjoy it

[hexagonian]

Hmmmmm...

Are the people that recommended 'CTP2 Modded' to you players who you give a lot of credence to? That would be the first question I would ask - (more from the point of curiosity rather than anything else).

Make sure you buy it at discount - at least if you do not like it, you will not feel too burned.

Stay away from the unmodded game - that is a given. You will be sorely disappointed with the AI. However, look at the (Modded) game based on its own merits and do not dislike a feature merely because it is handled differently than in civ3. Like any computer game, there are flaws and exploitable features in CTP2 (even Modded), so I can't say that it is perfect. And many of the differences do boil down to preferences, which makes for a weak argument in debating whether one type of game is better than another type of game.

CTP2 is a different animal, based on the use of PW, stacked combat and unconventional units. Also, the city worker system is not the same as in the civ series. Workers no longer work individual tiles but rather work the entire radius. This is one feature that I do miss from the civ series (and CTP1). However, during the course of the game, you will gain access to specialists which somewhat approximates the effect of the city workers and allows for a player to micromanage.

In terms of depth, CTP2 offers many more government choices over civ3 during the course of the game - I would say that SMAC's system probably seems more flexible because you can taylor your government based on the different social choices you can make.

However, within the CTP2 governments you can adjust your global settings of production/commerce/food and also the level of science, so there is some flexability in there. Pay close attention to the city caps because they will vary from government to government (more advanced governments usually have the higher caps, which probably is the driving force behind a lot of the switching).

IMO, CTP2 has a better and deeper tech tree, many more choices for tile improvements, a superior combat model and balanced combat results, wonder movies, and easier access to in-game info (I do miss the civ3 city screen though). If I had to sum it up, its that CTP2 is more streamlined in its concepts. (this can be viewed as a strength or weakness)

Diplomatically and militarily, I do think civ3 has a more focused AI, even over 'Modded CTP2'.

There's no culture or strategic/luxury resources in CTP2 either. CTP2 Trade generates Rush Buy gold and is useless in the default game (also the Apolyton Pack if it does not have the unit updater code) In CTP2 Cradle, Trade is a necessity, because you will need gold to upgrade units.

Corruption in CTP2 is based on maintaining happiness. You will not get the crippling corruption effects in CTP2 that you get in civ3 - you can take a far-flung city and make something useful out of it. (I do not like the fact that in civ3, your best option is usually razing a city).

Read the topped thread above for a comprehensive breakdown and comparison of the major Mods.

IMO, I would probably recommend starting with the Apolyton Pack because it fixes many of the problems in the default game, while retaining the default units/techs/wonders - so the elements like the poster tech tree included with the game will be of some use to you.

I do like Cradle too, but I am biased

The other three main Mods (Cradle, WAW, and MedMod) rewrite the entire game (adding advances, units, buildings, wonders), and also employ different files and philosophies as to how to accomplish a desired effect, so elements in found in Cradle may not be in MedMod.

Cradle focuses mainly on the Ancient/Medieval ages - at turn 600 you are at 750AD (though it can be played through the future) and also offers options to play a 600/800/1000 turn game. Cradle does start out slower than the other Mods, but this is by design.

MedMod rewrites the entire tech tree. WAW focuses on the 20th century.

And if you don't like a feature or setting, you can always easily change it.

[hexagonian]

One final thing...

In looking at the things I believe you consider to be important in a game, CTP2 does not offer factions or civs that each have a unique strength/weakness or a unique unit. (Something that is a definite strength of SMAC/civ3). CTP does offer government-specific units (more so in my Mod though), and the civs do have certain personality traits, so they will tend to be more aggressive if militaristic.

IMO, you will most likely find this to be a weakness in CTP2, as your replayability options may be limited. This is not to say that you cannot find multiple strategies/pathways to victory, but because of the somewhat generic nature of all of your civs, there will not be that element of diversity you probably want.

[Immortal Wombat]

I suspect that you will find CtP2 to be another flawed gem.
Every gamer wants something different out of every game, and no game will ever be able to provide a perfect experience. There isn't much to add to what hex said.
Its a different game. Nuf sed.

The real advantage it has over the others (IMO) is the infinite ways it can be modded, adapted, customised to suit your tastes. On top of all the "fixing" of the game to bring it up to a playable standard, there are many many optional add-ons that can make the game closer to the ideal game than perhaps you can get working with other games as a starting point. But then that is assuming you like the core content as it is (PW, Stacked combat, UI, city management etc...)

Even factions/UUs/CSUs/Civ bonuses can be added if desired.

That's why I love it. But I guess in Candle'bre you get to design your own perfect game, so why patch on to an existing one...

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by centrifuge
Ctp2 out of the box has many flaws, 1st and foremost the weak AI. There are several great mods, Super Apolyton Pack(CTP2 as it should be) Cradle, MedMod2, and WAW. I recomend all of them. Try CTP2 vanilla style first, and then Mod it, you'll understand all of the hard work that some of these folks have put into (and continue to put into) making this a great game.

At $9.95(American) it is definetly worth the buy. (that last sentence seems to be my mantra these days). Have fun, and I hope you enjoy it

One mod is missing on your list GoodMod: The Mod of Goods

-Martin

[hexagonian]

GoodMod is an integral part of Cradle - I tend to forget to include it in the lists because of that. But it is also a standalone Mod, and Martin has since updated it to include additional features not currently included in Cradle.

Ben,
How easy is it to create civ bonuses???? That's something I would love to incorporate into Cradle. But you are still busy with the Wonders SLIC, so I won't pester you (for the moment at least).

Vel,
BTW, have you tried EU2 yet???

[Pedrunn]

The only pourppouse of playing the game unmodded is to know how much work the modders have done.
If you are not interested in that, just start with the (Super?) Apolyton Pack: The fans Patch.
(Note: After patch the game and install the modswapper).
Then go to the radical mods like Craddle, MM2, World at War and Good Mod (although this last one inst that radical) depending on what age you like the most.

[centrifuge]

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann


One mod is missing on your list GoodMod: The Mod of Goods

-Martin

Yes it is, sorry Martin. I haven't tried GoodMod as a stand alone Mod yet, so I can't make any direct conclusions about it. Downloading GoodMod and taking it for a spin is part of my plan for the immediate future. From what I've read, I'm sure that it is excellant.

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by hexagonian
Ben,
How easy is it to create civ bonuses???? That's something I would love to incorporate into Cradle. But you are still busy with the Wonders SLIC, so I won't pester you (for the moment at least).

Depending on what you want, probably somewhere between "really simple" and "impossible"


The hardest would be things that depend on buildings being placed (production and food bonuses primarily. Maybe crowding and pollution effects too.) the easiest would be gold, PW, happiness. SLIC stuff. Oh, and of course, CSUs, CSBs, CSWs and whatnot...

[Oerdin]

You folks are forgeting to mention that CTP2 has a fully functioning MP mode while we are still waiting for Civ3's MP. In my opinion this is a strong plus for Ctp2.

[Alex]

Oh, Mighty Vel wants to try CTP2... we are honored, Vel, and I'm sure you will be able to find some interesting concepts in this game.

As hex said, I'd suggest you to start with the Apolyton Pack (the latest version is the Super Apolyton Pack mentioned by Pedrunn) and then you could try the others.

It would be interesting to read some strategic thoughts from you in the future.

Off-topic: I was participating in the Candle'Bre discussions at the start, but I had to get away from it (and also from the Civ3 demo game) because of a little thing called real life, but I'm willing to join in again as soon as I can.

[Locutus]

Hi Vel, good to see an old vet like you is giving this game a try!

I don't have much to add to what others have said, (modded) CtP2 is a good game, I'm sure you'll get your money's worth (and quite possible more)...

One thing I'd like to emphasize is that (especially modded) CtP2 has more choices than Civ: much more units, buildings, tile imps, advances, governments, etc than Civ2/3. Of course, SMAC's SE and Unit Workshop are even more flexible but aside from that, modded CtP2 has more choices than any other Civ game.

Be sure to let us know what you think of the game, even if you hate it. We'd love to hear what the Great Master of Strategy has to say about our little gem

As far as mods go: first try to play a bit without mods (the patch can't hurt though) to get a bit of a feeling for the game, then switch to the Apolyton Pack and see how much of a difference even such a conservative mod makes. After that, I would say the best order in which to try the mods would (IMHO) be MedMod, Cradle, WAW, Goodmod. Don't forget the scenarios BTW, especially not the Alexander the Great one, by many described as a game in itself (compliments of Harlan). However, if you can't/don't want to invest that much time/bandwidth quite yet, focus on Apolyton Pack and Cradle. Apolyton to experience the game as it was suppose to be and Cradle because, in spite of fierce competition, it's still the best mod out there (just IMHO of course - but that is coming from someone who invested most of his modding time in MedMod).

[hexagonian]

Ben

For now, I'm looking for the basic bonuses, and I would like to keep them small...

5% Production, Food, Science, Commerce boosts, possibly a (+1) happiness that would carry throughout the game (this last one may be too powerful though). I'd like to give each civ a bonus of some sort, and this would include both the human and AI civs.

We'll try that and then see where that leads to.

Locutus
Thanks for the plug - you're embarrassing me...

[Immortal Wombat]

hmmm, they look like they all need buildings in each city. Its possible, but not as elegant.

[Locutus]

Ben,
Actually, for gold and happiness you can use SLIC (AddGold, mod_CityHappiness/AddHappyTimer), for production, food and commerce you can (using SLIC) terraform the terrain around the city or add tile imps, ala the GoodMod (would require adding some new terrain types/tile imps of course), so only science requires you to add new buildings...

Dave,
I'll be expecting something back when I get around to making my own mod

[Immortal Wombat]

Actually, for gold and happiness you can use SLIC (AddGold, mod_CityHappiness/AddHappyTimer),

As I said in my first response...

for production, food and commerce you can (using SLIC) terraform the terrain around the city or add tile imps, ala the GoodMod (would require adding some new terrain types/tile imps of course),

Yeah. Still not pretty. I guess tile imps would be easiest.

Have you tried the other 4 mod_ functions?
Do they work? In Joe's post, he says he will include them, but he hasn't yet...

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
Yeah. Still not pretty.

"dumbass workaround for dumbass design flaw"

Have you tried the other 4 mod_ functions?
Do they work? In Joe's post, he says he will include them, but he hasn't yet...

Tried (briefly), but not succeeded. One day I'll get around to giving them proper testing, one day... between now and eternity

[Locutus]

*bump*

So, Vel, did you ever get around to picking up this game? We would still love to hear your thoughts...

[hexagonian]

You know, I was wondering the same thing...

Anyhow, I'm still playing civ3 at the moment. Generally, there are some good features in it that I wish could be implemented in CTP2. Many features are still preference-based, and for the most part, I will not bring them up here.

IMO, the good features in civ3 (compared to CTP2) are...

1. Diplomacy - Very good, compared to CTP2. One feature that really stands out is that when you ask a civ to ally with you in a war, it will do so by sending troops and actually assisting you in that manner. (Works on the flipside too - if you are the target). This makes the game very enjoyable. Also, there is no need to send out a diplomat to establish an embassy with another civ. And the counter-proposal format is very well-done, in that you can cut your deal to the exact dollar that the AI will accept.

This feature alone saves civ3, and is the only reason why I could see me playing it long-term. This is what makes the game a challenge - the need to manipulate alliances to keep the AI off your back and to take out strong AIs.

2. Strategic Resources - I fought a 2 stage war with the Americans - first to grab it's oil, and having taken it, I can now finish them off with my tanks, since they cannot build tanks themselves.

3. Civs with unique abilities and UUs - allowing for a player to pick a civ taylored to his own strengths, and to even pick a civ that does not play to his playing style for a little more challenge. Adds personality to the game.

Now for the bad...
1. The interface takes a great deal of getting used to, but the main weakness of the interface is that it makes getting in-game info hard to get at.
A. For instance, the tech tree in the science advisor provides pics of the unit/city improvements/wonders that each tech enables, but does not give a descriptive of what those pics are.
B. No short descriptive on what a particular city improvement/wonder does when selecting it in the build queue.
C. Units that have used up their movement and are part of a large stack could be greyed out in the unit list, so I could avoid selecting that unit when trying to move other units in the stack.

I could go on about other weaknesses related to the interface too. Couple this with the unwillingness of Firaxis to provide a poster that provides vital info, and a player has to work harder than necessary to play the game. So many things could be fixed here with a minimum amount of effort.

2. Combat - I do prefer the quicker resolution of battles with the CTP2 setup, which uses unit stacking. I believe Firaxis did not set up stacked combat because it seems to be more difficult to program and effectively implement too. Related to combat is the question concerning info that could be provided by the programmers regarding the time needed to completely assimilate a captured city into your empire. I understand the need to garrison a newly conquered city with enough troops, but for how long??? Even a general idea of the length of time would be nice.

3. PW vs Workers - Actually this has not been as bad as I feared, but overall, I do prefer the PW system. Adding different levels of irrigation/mines would certainly add another level to the tile improvements in civ3, as well as adding sea-based improvements, such as ports and fishing nets. However, the main weakness of the tile improvement setup does tie into the following...

And now for the ugly...
1. Railroads are a blight on the game - they clutter up the map, and more importantly, eliminate the need for a whole level of strategic thinking. Infinite movement allows a player to quickly marshall a defensive force from any point in the empire, and act as a safety valve when taking a city, because you can then shuttle in the necessary troops to maintain order in that captured city without committing them to the actual battleforce. Once you get the ability to build them and have a network, the game loses all strategic thought whatsoever.

By simply adding another level of Tile improvements (Advanced Mines/Advanced Irrigation) and limiting Railroads to movement bonuses only, you would reduce the map clutter, and make for strategic decisions (build either movement or shield/food/commerce boosters) and reducing the movement benefit of a railroad would allow for a lot more forethought in military matters.

On the flipside though, the game does still hold a good level of military strategy pre-industrial age, mainly due to the diplomatic angle.

2. ZOC - The lack of a ZOC further erodes any conventional strategic thinking. Other at chokepoints, why bother... You are much better off keeping your forces in stacks rather than wasting time setting up a screen. ZOC allows you to set up a screen, which may be vunerable, but also serves a valuable purpose to buy some time and prevent movement. The lack of a ZOC is not so much a big deal in the Ancient/Medieval Age, but once you get Railroads, that lack becomes a huge game flaw. The only strategy at that point is to have the biggest stack...

3. Tech Whoring - The game is structured to encourage tech trading, to the point where you are better off setting science to (0-10%) and raising the cash to buy the tech instead. This runs counter to the idea that a player should be rewarded for focusing on science. The AI manages to do well in tech mainly because of its willingness to trade techs with the other AIs, which forces a player to adapt to that same strategy.

[centrifuge]

Originally posted by hexagonian

2. Strategic Resources - I fought a 2 stage war with the Americans - first to grab it's oil, and having taken it, I can now finish them off with my tanks, since they cannot build tanks themselves.

This is a very good part of Civ3. Another thing that is good about this setup, is that you can bombard tile improvements with bombers, artillery, battleships etc. This give the player the option to cut off an enemies supply of oil(by destroying the roads leading to it). This adds an awesome strategic aspect to Civ3 that I'd love to see in CTP2 as well.

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by centrifuge
This is a very good part of Civ3. Another thing that is good about this setup, is that you can bombard tile improvements with bombers, artillery, battleships etc. This give the player the option to cut off an enemies supply of oil(by destroying the roads leading to it). This adds an awesome strategic aspect to Civ3 that I'd love to see in CTP2 as well.

That's a very interesting idea and in addition a very possible idea, too. I guess it is possible to make it so that you can bombard just a plain tile with improvement on it. And if not than it is possible to make it so that if you bombard a unit on a tile with improvement that the tile improvement will be pillaged. But the best thing of the first idea is that it is possible to teach the AI to use it. The only problem here is a problem of time I am afraid.

-Martin

[Velociryx]

Hey guys! Apologies for the looooong delay in writing again here....was called away from my normal routine by the necessity of flying to California, getting off the plane and straight into a car to make the cross country drive back to SC. Three thousand miles and ten states later, I'm bushed, and going to bed for some much needed sleep!

But!...I do indeed plan to get a copy of Ctp2, and will post more 'bout that as soon as I get the chance to give it a thorough lookin' over!

-=Vel=-

[Solver]

Do it Vel, do it, and while I'm here, my recommendations: one game of CtP 2 as-is. On the "impossible" level. Crush the AI to death, and see that it's in alpha stage. Then download the mods, and play with them. My personal favorite is MedMod, due to lots of stuff it adds, but Cradle seems to be a bit tougher in warring, though some things about it I don't like.

[Tamerlin]

I have been deeply dissapointed with Civ3.

In my own opinion, in spite of excellent concepts, clearly summed up by the previous posts in this thread, the game is spoiled by the AI behavior and especially the way it is crudely cheating. I'am not upset by the fact an AI is cheating, but I can't stand it when it is in such a blunt manner you don't feel the AI is bound to any rule. How to build a strategy when you don't know what can do or can't do your ennemy ? I'am perhaps too accustomed to tabletop strategy games in which the players have to respect the same rules.

The CtP2 AI is certainly cheating but it is almost "invisible".

Shortly after my last Civ3 game, I decided to test the Super Apolyton Pack v2.0. Without any hesitation, I urge you to play CtP2, but as it has already been said before you will only enjoy it if you are ready to discover another game, not a different Civ2 ou Civ3, another game with a different philosophy and thus different concepts.

Enjoy !

If someone want some infos on EU2, he should perhaps ask Immortal Wombat. If I'am not wrong his new avatar is partly made with a EU2 graphic.

[Immortal Wombat]

It is, but only because I liked the shield, and stole it from someone else's avatar... I haven't got the game at all (yet...) - I think hexagonian is the person (here) to ask on EU1/2.

[Oerdin]

EU2 is a great game; the graphics are a little crude but the, like CTP2, the programers put a lot of thought into the layout and functionality of the game. To bad Firaxis spent all there time making graphics and didn't put much thought in to the design of the game.

Oh, well. Back to CTP2.

[hexagonian]

EU/EU2 has a steeper learning curve than the civ games, and can be overwhelming once you start, but the game is actually simplistic in nature once you get the hang of it. Just a few basic things to do.

Stretches of it can be boring...Still, it is a very immersive game, and it does have a great deal of depth to it, especially with the scripted events.

I recommend it highly!!! I haven't played it for a few weeks though...

[Oerdin]

I hate to admite it but I've been playing more EU2 then CTP2.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
I have been deeply dissapointed with Civ3.

In my own opinion, in spite of excellent concepts, clearly summed up by the previous posts in this thread, the game is spoiled by the AI behavior and especially the way it is crudely cheating. I'am not upset by the fact an AI is cheating, but I can't stand it when it is in such a blunt manner you don't feel the AI is bound to any rule. How to build a strategy when you don't know what can do or can't do your ennemy ? I'am perhaps too accustomed to tabletop strategy games in which the players have to respect the same rules.

Would you care to bring up some examples of these blatant cheats? For a person with your experience, this can not be hard.

There have been some very good threads about suspected cheats, made by some excellent brains, not parrots. They found 2 real cheats:

- The AI knows the location of all troups in the discovered part of the map.
- The AI knows the location of future resources; even though it doesn't know what it is, it knows that there is something.

All other suspected "cheats", brought up by parrots (AKA whiners), were carefully analyzed and considered non-existent, because simple explanations were found. In fact, the AI in Civ3 is even very predictable and bound to strict rules.

So, examples please, not mere statements.

The CtP2 AI is certainly cheating but it is almost "invisible".

Yes... the AI in CtP2 is indeed... invisible.