SAT no longer standardized

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by Victor Galis
-Yes, I just don't like turning an 8 mile walk started at 4:30pm into an 8 mile hike, because there is no way I would make it home before dark most days then. And on the days when I could make it home before dark, it would be too hot to walk. If I made it home at 8:30pm, my life would have sucked royally. In high school I went to bed at 10:30-11:00 at the latest.

If you can't handel that, don't you have friends?

Originally posted by Victor Galis
-Most tournaments clashed with scholar's bowl and math tournaments. Besides, at my school we reffered to LD as Loser Debate.

Wow. I guess that is coming from the math team people? LD has hotter girls. Debate also looks better than SB and Math on applications.

Originally posted by Victor Galis
-Maybe, but the way I have been taught debate was way too card intensive for my tastes. Maybe it's because the people who taught me sucked, but that's not exactly my fault, now is it?

Didn't you read what my practices were like? You don't need to be taught. I wasn't taught. I hate so called intellectual people like you who need to have their hand held at every turn. Do things yourself everyonce in awhile. I'm not saying you should be independent at the level I am (I taught myself how to tie my shoes, and it is in a totally different way than what everyone else does), but you need to do some things on your own.

Originally posted by Victor Galis
-Shows you how much West Point knows The problem with calculus is not that people can't understand it, it's that most schools do a **** job of teaching all the stuff that leads up to it.

West Point knows what they are doing.

[Victor Galis]

Not at all. It doesn't take extra resources to get teachers to accelerate high school math.

-You overestimate teachers. Some schools don't have the teachers to propperly teach these subjects at this pace, let alone faster. I'm not saying people can't keep up if the classes are accelerated, I'm saying that the teachers can't propperly teach them that fast with everyone understanding.

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by Ramo
Again, that isn't necessarily true with major government pressure.

I'm sorry, but the government would never pressure the SAT to include calculus, at least not for a long time. You have to be reasonable.

Originally posted by Ramo
Why?
You just admitted my entire point. Changing the SAT would create a pressure for change in schools.

I admitted that in crazy world (the only place were you're scenario would take place) something might happen. Calculus would not be added nor does it need to be.

Originally posted by Ramo
Besides with honors and AP classes, how?

Add points to GPA.

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by Victor Galis
-Yes, I have bad social skills because I chose not to disturb class

You were one of those people? Either you had very little homework or you are a total loser. I don't want to flame here. I must say though, that the top people in my class screw around all the time.

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by Ramo
Not at all. It doesn't take extra resources to get teachers to accelerate high school math.

Actually it does. Many teachers who are already teaching Calculus are crazy or don't really know what the hell they are talking about.

[Victor Galis]

If you can't handel that, don't you have friends?

-I had 2 friends who lived remotely in the right direction (everyone else seems to live on the opposite side of the school). One didn't drive a car, and I couldn't regularly depend on the other. I did manage to play some Ultimate Frisbee after school in the last year depending on the not so able to help me out friend, but I coulnd't have done anything that required a steady commitment.

Wow. I guess that is coming from the math team people? LD has hotter girls. Debate also looks better than SB and Math on applications.

-That may be true, but it's not as fun. And our school doesn't do crap to support academic activities. We have a good math team because we have good math teachers who care. We have a good SB team, because we have the raw brainpower, but we don't have any teacher even close to being able to lend the sort of support required for debate.

Didn't you read what my practices were like? You don't need to be taught.

-It makes quite a difference. Sure, I can argue, but to debate you need some sort of training.

I wasn't taught. I hate so called intellectual people like you who need to have their hand held at every turn.

-, you clearly don't know me.

Do things yourself everyonce in awhile. I'm not saying you should be independent at the level I am (I taught myself how to tie my shoes, and it is in a totally different way than what everyone else does), but you need to do some things on your own.

-Go off to Europe on your own for a couple weeks, then tell me about how to be independent. Otherwise, don't presume to tell me how to be independent. Independence is part of the reason I have crap for leadership skills.

West Point knows what they are doing.

-I have serious doubts about that.

[Victor Galis]

You were one of those people? Either you had very little homework or you are a total loser. I don't want to flame here. I must say though, that the top people in my class screw around all the time.

-I had the ability to finish my homework very quickly compared to other people (I had long mastered the art of doing a half-assed job). I have no respect for people who can not sit quietly when the teacher is lecturing, but frankly a lot of my early teachers were really boring, so I had to stay awake somehow.

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by Victor Galis
-That may be true, but it's not as fun. And our school doesn't do crap to support academic activities. We have a good math team because we have good math teachers who care. We have a good SB team, because we have the raw brainpower, but we don't have any teacher even close to being able to lend the sort of support required for debate.

Here you go again. You don't need support for debate. You need to get that idea out of your head that people need to tell you exactly what to do before you are able to do it. My preparation for debate consisted of watching a couple rounds. That was it.

Originally posted by Victor Galis
-It makes quite a difference. Sure, I can argue, but to debate you need some sort of training.

I sorry, but you don't. You may think you do, but you are just messing yourself. LD is quite simple, especially with your apparent raw intellectual power.

Originally posted by Victor Galis
-, you clearly don't know me.

Yes I do. You believing you need training for debate proves this.

Originally posted by Victor Galis
-Go off to Europe on your own for a couple weeks, then tell me about how to be independent. Otherwise, don't presume to tell me how to be independent. Independence is part of the reason I have crap for leadership skills.

Bah. I'd go to Europe if I was rich like you. I've been on vacations alone before, without any relatives helping me and without my parents even knowing about it.

Originally posted by Victor Galis
-I have serious doubts about that.

You're just living in a dream world where math means more than it really does.

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by Victor Galis
-I had the ability to finish my homework very quickly compared to other people (I had long mastered the art of doing a half-assed job). I have no respect for people who can not sit quietly when the teacher is lecturing, but frankly a lot of my early teachers were really boring, so I had to stay awake somehow.

We all know how to BS. What is this about staying awake too? If you aren't going to talk, you should sleep. Once again, you don't need a teacher for you to know what to do.

[Ramo]

I'm sorry, but the government would never pressure the SAT to include calculus, at least not for a long time. You have to be reasonable.

The government would never do most of what I advocate. What's your point?

Add points to GPA.

Explain...

[Ramo]

Actually it does. Many teachers who are already teaching Calculus are crazy or don't really know what the hell they are talking about.

Yep. A major reason for this is the sorry state of our education system. More funding for education would help, but not completely. Teacher wages aren't the only reasons for the lack of competent education.

[Victor Galis]

Here you go again. You don't need support for debate.

- Where exactly do you debate? I have seen the difference between good debaters and crap debaters. I have a friend who is a really good debater, but then again his school debate team has a huge budget to go to all sort of nice tournaments. Mine didn't.

You need to get that idea out of your head that people need to tell you exactly what to do before you are able to do it. My preparation for debate consisted of watching a couple rounds. That was it.

-Somehow I am seriously beginning to doubt you are any good at debate. You would probably be torn to shreds by some of the teams in my area.

I sorry, but you don't. You may think you do, but you are just messing yourself. LD is quite simple, especially with your apparent raw intellectual power.

-But LD is irrelevant, because I was a policy debater.

You believing you need training for debate proves this.

-There are many aspects of debate theory you do not get without training. Hell there's a lot of things you don't get if you've never been taught anything about debate. Sure, you can go out there and debate, but when push comes to shove...

Bah. I'd go to Europe if I was rich like you. I've been on vacations alone before, without any relatives helping me and without my parents even knowing about it.

-Rich. Ah, you clearly underestimate my ability to travel cheaply.

You're just living in a dream world where math means more than it really does.

-Everything is important in shaping the way we think. Foreign languages, math, science, social studies, but we're only debating about math. Now, I could make many similar comments about you, but I will refrain from it.

[Victor Galis]

What is this about staying awake too? If you aren't going to talk, you should sleep.

-Sleep? And waste time?

Once again, you don't need a teacher for you to know what to do.

-That was my point, wasn't it?

The government would never do most of what I advocate. What's your point?

-Join the club.

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by Ramo
The government would never do most of what I advocate. What's your point?

I'm debating real life here.

Originally posted by Ramo
Explain...

You took hard courses. You get a 5.6 instead of a 3.6.

Originally posted by Ramo
Yep. A major reason for this is the sorry state of our education system. More funding for education would help, but not completely. Teacher wages aren't the only reasons for the lack of competent education.

I'm just saying how changing the SAT won't change much because of this.

[Victor Galis]

I'm debating real life here.

-And yet you claim to be a debater

You took hard courses. You get a 5.6 instead of a 3.6.

-I wish my school did that... we only got 1 extra point for AP classes, so I ended up with a 4.3. 4.5 was theoretical max, but that was too much work to be worth it.

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by Victor Galis
- Where exactly do you debate? I have seen the difference between good debaters and crap debaters. I have a friend who is a really good debater, but then again his school debate team has a huge budget to go to all sort of nice tournaments. Mine didn't.

I debate in the Houston circut. It is suppose to be the hardest in the US.

Originally posted by Victor Galis
-Somehow I am seriously beginning to doubt you are any good at debate. You would probably be torn to shreds by some of the teams in my area.

Maybe you'd barely win in policy since you are far more experienced.

Originally posted by Victor Galis
-But LD is irrelevant, because I was a policy debater.

I was talking about how you don't need someone to tell you how to do LD for you to do it. It is cheaper than policy too.

Originally posted by Victor Galis
-There are many aspects of debate theory you do not get without training. Hell there's a lot of things you don't get if you've never been taught anything about debate. Sure, you can go out there and debate, but when push comes to shove...

Make up your own theory or read up on it. Either way, you don't need someone to help you along.

Originally posted by Victor Galis
-Rich. Ah, you clearly underestimate my ability to travel cheaply.

My parents would not help me and I have no money to waste on Europe. Even $500 would be a significant burden to my reserve fund.

Originally posted by Victor Galis
-Everything is important in shaping the way we think. Foreign languages, math, science, social studies, but we're only debating about math. Now, I could make many similar comments about you, but I will refrain from it.

Math plays a small part though. The problem solving skills can't be gain in other ways. This doesn't really matter though. You're apparently very good at math, yet need help in most aspects of life.

Originally posted by Victor Galis
-Sleep? And waste time?

You could be up later in the night talking to friends or being at Poly.

Originally posted by Victor Galis
-That was my point, wasn't it?

The fact that you listen enough to decide if they are boring or not is bad.

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by Victor Galis
-And yet you claim to be a debater

That makes no sense.

Originally posted by Victor Galis
-I wish my school did that... we only got 1 extra point for AP classes, so I ended up with a 4.3. 4.5 was theoretical max, but that was too much work to be worth it.

My school doesn't do that. We just get 7 points on a 100 point scale. I was just saying what some schools do.

[Ramo]

I'm debating real life here.

Drug legalization, free trade, the end of our police state, etc. You call that reality?
Real life isn't often discussed here.

You took hard courses. You get a 5.6 instead of a 3.6.

Link?

I'm just saying how changing the SAT won't change much because of this.

It's a real problem down South. Public school teacher wages aren't that bad up North, though.

Also, many competent people aren't in the public school system for reasons other than financial. Just look at a Magnet school, for instance. They have the same problems wrt teacher salaries, but get competent teachers because the schools aren't crapholes.

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by Ramo

Drug legalization, free trade, the end of our police state, etc. You call that reality?
Real life isn't often discussed here.

This isn't about those topics. It is about viable options.

Originally posted by Ramo
Link?

This is at a friend's school. I don't know what the web site address for it is and even if they would put it up on the web site. my school doesn't announce its grade changes on its web site.

Originally posted by Ramo
It's a real problem down South. Public school teacher wages aren't that bad up North, though.

Also, many competent people aren't in the public school system for reasons other than financial. Just look at a Magnet school, for instance. They have the same problems wrt teacher salaries, but get competent teachers because the schools aren't crapholes.

This doesn't really matter. There aren't enough teachers to go around already. Maybe if everyone had a TV in the rooms and the best teachers were shown on it this would work. Unfortunantly, too many people hate this idea because it would put the bad teachers out of a job.

[Victor Galis]

Maybe you'd barely win in policy since you are far more experienced.

-Nah... policy was fun, but the people who win are the people who dedicate their lives on it.

I debate in the Houston circut. It is suppose to be the hardest in the US.

-I shall make my own enquiries.

I was talking about how you don't need someone to tell you how to do LD for you to do it. It is cheaper than policy too.

-My point was that you need support for policy. LD is irrelevant, because I wouldn't have done LD.

Make up your own theory or read up on it. Either way, you don't need someone to help you along.

-Ah, but there are certain aspects of meta-debate that you just wouldn't discover on your own... not in four years. Maybe it doesn't matter, maybe it does.

Just jumping in to debate like that is like playing chess without reading any chess books. Sure, you can get pretty good at it. I do it this way, but then the people who put in the effort will tear you up and be able to explain to you how they did it with terms that you won't even begin to understand. I gave up on debate because I neither wanted to be horribly crushed by the really good people, nor wanted to invest the time to become really good.

My parents would not help me and I have no money to waste on Europe. Even $500 would be a significant burden to my reserve fund.

-Ah, so you are poor... but do not accuse me of being rich Sure, I was rich this year, but last year... that was a budget vacation. Travelling through 9 foreign countries requires a bit more independence than just going somewhere in the States... maybe you don't have the money to, but you should try it sometime.

This doesn't really matter though. You're apparently very good at math, yet need help in most aspects of life.

-Ah... you assumptions are based on very conformist notions.

You could be up later in the night talking to friends or being at Poly.

-Or I could be done with my work, and have that time to be on Poly or talking to friends (which is what I did). I could afford to go to sleep early because I brought no work home... well mostly. Senior year it became impossible to do that because I liked my classes and they started giving out more work, but...

The fact that you listen enough to decide if they are boring or not is bad.

-How do you figure? Good money is being spent on having those people lecture me, I can't just waste it indiscrimnantly. Sure, some of it is worthless.

[Victor Galis]

That makes no sense.

-Policy debate is a whole lot of BS.

This isn't about those topics. It is about viable options.

-Viable option: Take new england. Form the province of New England, attach it to Canada... move to Canada.

[Ramo]

This isn't about those topics. It is about viable options.

Why is getting the feds to change its point of view wrt the SATs so fundamentally unviable? It seems much more practical than anything else I've heard on fixing the education system.

This doesn't really matter. There aren't enough teachers to go around already.

Sure there are. It's just that not enough would-be teachers become teachers due to the status quo.

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by Victor Galis
-Nah... policy was fun, but the people who win are the people who dedicate their lives on it.

You should have done LD then.

Originally posted by Victor Galis
-I shall make my own enquiries.

Good.

Originally posted by Victor Galis
-My point was that you need support for policy. LD is irrelevant, because I wouldn't have done LD.

I had no support. My teammate sucked too. You should have done LD though. It is more fun and you get to meet better looking girls.

Originally posted by Victor Galis
-Ah, but there are certain aspects of meta-debate that you just wouldn't discover on your own... not in four years. Maybe it doesn't matter, maybe it does.

Either you don't need those certain aspects, you can find a replacement for them, or you can read up on them.

Originally posted by Victor Galis
Just jumping in to debate like that is like playing chess without reading any chess books. Sure, you can get pretty good at it. I do it this way, but then the people who put in the effort will tear you up and be able to explain to you how they did it with terms that you won't even begin to understand. I gave up on debate because I neither wanted to be horribly crushed by the really good people, nor wanted to invest the time to become really good.

This is a bad analogy. If you really felt you needed a lot of time to prepare, you should have done LD. Much less preparation needed in that.

Originally posted by Victor Galis
-Ah, so you are poor... but do not accuse me of being rich Sure, I was rich this year, but last year... that was a budget vacation. Travelling through 9 foreign countries requires a bit more independence than just going somewhere in the States... maybe you don't have the money to, but you should try it sometime.

I'm not saying I'm poor, I just have limited resources. The resources I do have can't be touched unless they are really needed. You may need more independence for Europe, you may not. I'd have to know how it was planned out.

Originally posted by Victor Galis
-Ah... you assumptions are based on very conformist notions.

Don't know what you mean by this exactly. My point was that even though you are good at math, you seem to be lacking in problem solving ability.

Originally posted by Victor Galis
-Or I could be done with my work, and have that time to be on Poly or talking to friends (which is what I did). I could afford to go to sleep early because I brought no work home... well mostly. Senior year it became impossible to do that because I liked my classes and they started giving out more work, but...

I hope that great deal of senior work was because of AP classes. If not, you don't know the meaning of shutterdown.

Originally posted by Victor Galis
-How do you figure? Good money is being spent on having those people lecture me, I can't just waste it indiscrimnantly. Sure, some of it is worthless.

You own time is better spent learning it yourself. The extra time can be used for other things that are to your benefit.

Originally posted by Victor Galis
-Policy debate is a whole lot of BS.

Another reason you should have done LD.

Originally posted by Victor Galis
-Viable option: Take new england. Form the province of New England, attach it to Canada... move to Canada.

You are talking crazy now, and ruining my beautiful thread.

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by Ramo
Why is getting the feds to change its point of view wrt the SATs so fundamentally unviable? It seems much more practical than anything else I've heard on fixing the education system.

Adding calc to the SAT is just silly.

Originally posted by Ramo
Sure there are. It's just that not enough would-be teachers become teachers due to the status quo.

It would take a great deal of time to improve the teaching pool.

[Victor Galis]

You should have done LD then

-I was in an environment where LD was Loser Debate. Several people whose opinions I trust told me this, given that info there was no point in wasting my time with trying to do it on my own.

Either you don't need those certain aspects, you can find a replacement for them, or you can read up on them.

-Perhaps... see my chess analogy.

This is a bad analogy. If you really felt you needed a lot of time to prepare, you should have done LD. Much less preparation needed in that.

-Saying I should have done LD, is like me telling someone they should have learned Calculus when their school didn't offer it... cutting cards for all the squirrel case negs was a pain in the ass.

I'd have to know how it was planned out.

-I said to myself the fall before, next summer I will go to Europe... then I put off planning, until finally I put off planning until after graduation (speech at graduation was more important). So it's now June 2nd. I was hoping to leave ASAP. I end up leaving the 12th because that's the earliest date I could find a cheap ticket. Went online, bought a rail pass, bought a plane ticket, booked some hostels and went off periodically sending an e-mail home so my mom wouldn't freak out. Then I stayed at some relatives house near the end of my trip, then I met my mom in Paris, and we split up and I left for Romania where the non-independent part of my trip began.

My point was that even though you are good at math, you seem to be lacking in problem solving ability.

-Quite on the contrary. You just seem to assume I want to solve certain problems which I don't want to solve

I hope that great deal of senior work was because of AP classes. If not, you don't know the meaning of shutterdown.

-A bit. Some of it was because I had interesting teachers and I actually started listening. My English teacher for example. Not really the best of teachers, but a very interesting person. No... much of this work was not related to my APs. It was related to Multivariable and German 5, with a bit from AP Stat. I don't know where people get the notion that APs should be a lot of work. In some classes I got by just by paying attention and doing nothihng, others I paid no attention and did all the work. You just have to play it by ear. But I was very seriously burnt out by the end of senior year... I went two semesters then a quarter then two semesters with only a week or so of break in between at most.

You own time is better spent learning it yourself. The extra time can be used for other things that are to your benefit.

-Some subjects, yes. There are some subjects where just paying attention works and it's less work. There are some teachers that are very interesting, not necessarily because of the subject but because of their stories.

Another reason you should have done LD.

-But then I wouldn't get to connect everything to nuclear war

You are talking crazy now, and ruining my beautiful thread.

-New England, and some surrounding areas are really the only salvagable parts of this country. The rest have so many problems it might even be worth just starting over.

[Victor Galis]

You assume that math is my strong point. This may one day have been true, but now I can question that. I can not honestly say if I am better at math, physics, computer science, or foreign languages.

[Urban Ranger]

What are your levels at math, physics, and computer science?

[Q Classic]

victor's right about chamblee hs, actually. i went there. it's, ah... rather competitive. i should know. i was in the same class as victor. actually, i lived near him, too. neither of us had any reliable means of getting home easily.
GP: are you familiar with the lawrenceville highway/I285 exit? almost nobody from our magnet school lived in that area, so; neither of us having cars...

as to the sat: sure, having a low sat score will hurt you: but these days, the elite institutions look a lot at the resume, gpa, essays and classes one takes; as in, if you don't have oodles of ap credit (which they will ignore), if you're not president of such and such club, if you didn't write a coherent essay that told them exactly what they wanted... those things are ranked so much more importantly than whether you've done well on the SAT I/SAT II/ACT...

and yes, most people do go to state schools. that's where the SAT mattesr most. point being ? that doesn't mean the SAT tells you much. just like how an IQ test doesn't really tell you much.