research choices

vmxa1 · July 2, 2002, 00:48

I would like to pose three early tech choices for non creatives and see what the feedback is:

1) micro vs telepathic training
2) pollution processor vs merc missiles
3) arm barracks vs fighter garrisons vs space ports

Give your choices and if you feel like it your reasons. I will start with my current selection.

Tele train - I want to boost my spying bonus and early on feel I can give up the boost for growth. If you skip cloners then you may need to get this.
PP - this one needs testing as I am not so sure the reduction is worth the loss of this missile so early. But if you are production 28 and losing 6 to pollution, the processor gets me 5 back. That is same as AF. I can get by with nucs for now.
Ports - this is one I have given no thought to so far. I have seen planets lost that would not have if they had either of the other structures. Fighters would have stop the attack at that point and Armor B would have given enough punch to defeat the invaders. Also as a Uni I have longed for them to prevent revolts. The 50% money can be very big early.

ravagon · July 2, 2002, 03:31

This will be very much subject to your custom race and game type methinks:-

1) Telepathic as I generally play with spying penalties and want to get rid of them before I meet the Darloks. (Of course my custom race is creative which removes the whole basis of the poll

)
Production can be increased by allocating more workers from researchers if necessary. Spying penalties can't be otherwise so easily reduced.

2) Pollution Processor - in most cases I don't go on a general offensive early and rarely have to defend at this stage - again subject to change if there is an immediate need. Doesn't quite account for an absence of AF's though as the +1 per worker hasn't been factored in.

3) Fighter garrisons - Fighters/missiles are targetted first by an enemy offensive - need to keep my ships out of the line of fire for as long as possible. Plus they do replicate if you ever have battles that last 10 turns (This has happened to me once or twice

).
I generally rely on mostly heavy based defenses and ships at critical choke-points so Armour barracks are unnecessary - AI tends to bomb my planets out of existence more often than invading them anyway.
Spaceports are a luxury. If you really need the cash set one of your planets to trade goods for a while. Early on the 50% isn't really going to amount to that much anyway unless you have a race that grows large pops quickly.

I do play on huge galaxies though so most of the expansion problems of other settings are alleviated in these early stages.

moomin · July 2, 2002, 05:22

1) Telepathic training. Can never have too high a spy bonus, right? Especially in mid-game.
2) Pollution Processor. Unless I'm tolerant, which I can't recall last time I were. Prod is way more important than missiles - nukes mostly do, especially MIRVd, till you get decent beam tech anyway.
3) Depends entirely on the situation: spaceport if I'm on the offensive - fleets cost money. Fighter garrisons if a large neigbour is coming to knock on the door.

But mostly I play uncreative, so I usually end up with micro, meculites and barracks

Spaced Cowboy · July 2, 2002, 08:57

1. tele - spying bonus can't be beat.
2. merc missles - usually do not waste time building the pp, I wait for the next one that knocks almost all of your waste down to 0. I'm usually hammering in this catergory to get nasty small missles ASAP
3. This is a toss up for me, spaceport of fighter garrison. I think that I'm about 50-50 on it. Armor barracks seems a waste.

moomin · July 2, 2002, 09:06

RPM: You're aware of the fact that PPs & ARs are cumlative? Pollution sure builds up fast once you get a decent sized pop with with autofactory and robo miner...

vmxa1 · July 2, 2002, 12:21

Quote:

Originally posted by ravagon

2) Pollution Processor - in most cases I don't go on a general offensive early and rarely have to defend at this stage - again subject to change if there is an immediate need. Doesn't quite account for an absence of AF's though as the +1 per worker hasn't been factored in.

Sorry, if I confused anyone I was not saying I do not have AF built. That would be insane. I was only pointing out that the +5 production saved by the processor is equal to the boost from an AF (not counting the per worker part). I just showing it is a serious boost in production and goes in every planet and adds every turn. By the time you could get to Core Waste the game has been decided. It looks like the first two are universal.

vmxa1 · July 2, 2002, 12:32

Quote:

Originally posted by ravagon

3) Fighter garrisons - Fighters/missiles are targetted first by an enemy offensive - need to keep my ships out of the line of fire for as long as possible. Plus they do replicate if you ever have battles that last 10 turns (This has happened to me once or twice

).
I generally rely on mostly heavy based defenses and ships at critical choke-points so Armour barracks are unnecessary - AI tends to bomb my planets out of existence more often than invading them anyway.
Spaceports are a luxury. If you really need the cash set one of your planets to trade goods for a while. Early on the 50% isn't really going to amount to that much anyway unless you have a race that grows large pops quickly.

Remember this point in the game you may only have two colonies and one of them will be just getting started. No threats are likely at this time. Cash on hand improves your change of getting a leader and that can be a big boost. The farther the game goes the more you get from a space port and the less you need garrisons.

vmxa1 · July 2, 2002, 12:49

Quote:

Originally posted by RPMisCOOL
12. merc missles - usually do not waste time building the pp, I wait for the next one that knocks almost all of your waste down to 0. I'm usually hammering in this catergory to get nasty small missles ASAP .

Ah, I understand the fear my friend. Missiles are very comforting in the very early game. Down the road you will have given up a lot of production. All of the workers creating waste. You would be in a rush to get that AF up, but not to get the near equivilentence of one in the form of a processor? Note that when you get the renewer and add that you get back about 75% of the waste. If you manage to get nano dis, you can skip Core Dumps in favor of Deep Core. Anyway if your strategy is to skip those early reducer and wait for the Core Dump, you will give up a ton of production. When you get to the 3500 rp stuff you wil have already sealed the fate and on the road to doom or victory and will be hard to alter with tech. Another consideration is that you usually will have nothing better to build when you get to that point, except star base and that will likely have to wait until the planet is stronger. Anyway I can get by will Nuc until I switch to beams. In fact I may start out with a laser BB instead, if no contact for awhile.
Yes, I know you could move workers to sci to lower waste, but you will then not be able to build ship in any reasonable time frame, be they colony ships/base or capitol ships.

Spaced Cowboy · July 2, 2002, 14:11

Quote:

Originally posted by moominparatrooper
RPM: You're aware of the fact that PPs & ARs are cumlative? Pollution sure builds up fast once you get a decent sized pop with with autofactory and robo miner...

Cumlative?? Hmmm...

Correct me if I'm wrong!

PP's give a 50% reduction
AR's give a 75% reduction

If you build a PP then an AR you get a 50% + 75% of the remain 50% or a total of 87.5%

I'm just saying that the PP doesn't seem to be worth the extra 12.5% reduction.

This usually equates to one or two points of lost production versus how many production points it takes to build it in the first place, hence I'm building something else.

Garth Vader · July 2, 2002, 15:23

1) micro vs telepathic training

Telepathic training, for the reasons given above. I like stealing!

2) pollution processor vs merc missiles

Pollution Processor. I don't put missiles on my ships so I have little need for them.

3) arm barracks vs fighter garrisons vs space ports

Space ports. You can't beat the cash, especially because I am often in a crunch in early-mid game.

I don't know why armor barracks are here, they are really useless. I have never been invaded when I have had more than 1-2 marines on a planet. If a planet is defended, the AI will just bomb it.

vmxa1 · July 2, 2002, 17:35

PP comes way before rewners. By the time I have researched and can build a renewer, it is worth it. I will not be working on any tiny or small planets at this stage. You just have to do the numbers in each case. I just went to a current game. Planet was making 68 ind with no pollution. I sold off the renewer and took a -10 pollution penalty. You tell if it worth it? This was with a PP. It is 50% reduction before pollution is calculated and then 25% for the renewer , then pollution is calculated. The calc is based on a number of factors and the size of your planet is one of them. Believe me when I tell you I have tested it. On a decent planet, by the time you can put on the renwer, it is worth it, unless you have Core Waste Dumps. Then you drop them in and never build the other two. This comes later and you may in fact never research it if not creative.

vmxa1 · July 2, 2002, 17:41

Glad to see you see it that way GV. I have been invaded, but it is rare and I am going to lose the game anyway (most likely, unless it was a newly conquered planet). I would not mind having the arm barracks to help prevent revolts when play a UNI race, non tele. Those long assimilations are a killer. Yeah. I know I could bomb them down or put even more troops down (that is what I normally do).

Spaced Cowboy · July 2, 2002, 17:43

Vmxa1,

You got my idea backwards. Sell off the PP and see what the results are? I always build renewers. I'm just saying that PP's may not be worth it?????

vmxa1 · July 2, 2002, 18:05

Would not be the first time I got something backwards. Anyway, I sell it and now I have -3 for pollution and net 65. Since I only pay 1 for maint on the PP, what do you think I should do? Remeber, most of the planets are getting the PP before I have renewers and while they are likely to have nothing else to build. I will be earning an extra few industry every turn on every planet, not a bad thing.

Garth Vader · July 2, 2002, 20:23

I haven't tested effects, but I would hate to try and make it to the renewer without the PP, that's just too much wasted production.

vmxa1 · July 2, 2002, 20:28

That is what I am saying. No reason to skip it at that stage. If you have -2 pollution it pays for itself, until you get Core, if you get it. Whating for the renewer cost you and you can use both.

ravagon · July 2, 2002, 23:14

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1

Remember this point in the game you may only have two colonies and one of them will be just getting started. No threats are likely at this time. Cash on hand improves your change of getting a leader and that can be a big boost. The farther the game goes the more you get from a space port and the less you need garrisons.

This would also be tailored to my builderesque playing style I guess. If you have a telepathic race to start you might want to go on the offensive early for a couple of easy colonies, ie: The few ships you build early on are tied up somewhere else and defensive fighters are pretty hard to stop.
I'd forgotten about the leader aspect - good point. I tend to look for those with the Megawealth flag over all others early on. I do still think spaceports are a waste for most races at this stage though. The +50% boost is partially offset by the maintainance cost. 1 extra monetary unit for maintainance on a planet producing <10 or so (and hence boosted by <5) added to the initial production cost is significant => not worth it AFAIC.
Even if you don't want to switch to trade goods for a few turns early on you can always just queue up one item at a time and let the overflow at the end of each go into your treasury.
(Plenty of time to, er, "aquire" spaceports later from somebody else

).

EarthMan · July 3, 2002, 00:34

how many of you players go on impossible difficulty? I am a mark for going on the hardest difficulty on any game and everyone thinks i am insane.

vmxa1 · July 3, 2002, 00:38

Consider that once your taxes gets to 4 you get 50% or 2 bc. Maint is 1 bc. You put 1 bc in the bank every turn. It is not going to be the earliest item built, so you will likely be doing better than that and can only grow. Cash is a huge problem for most of the game up till you get a large empire going. I know that a garrison can be a big help under some conditions, but I find that I have ground batteries by the time I am under serious attack. I will not have missile bases or fighter garrison. If I ever manage to steal them, I probably no longer need them. If I am a tele, I could use them more as they are easier to throw up on a newly aquired planet that I do not want to stay behind to defend. By the time I have 8-10 planets they are of no use and I am very glad I have the cash, which by then will be a lot. 12-20 on built up planets per turn. Mind you I am not tryijng to change your position, so much as convince myself that this is a valid choice. If I was playing a creative, I do not have think about what to pick, only how to stay alive until I am ready to drop the hammer. In fact if I am a tele, it is likely to be a creative tele with production boost
That brings up the reason why I have no titans, I need the ground batteries to feel safe on planets with no ships and none close by. It keeps all but the serious AI away with a SB.

vmxa1 · July 3, 2002, 00:41

Nearly all here play impossible, most of the time as best as I can tell.

moomin · July 3, 2002, 05:45

Moo2 is good, because there are still so many interesting ways to win at impossible, unlike Civ3, where despotic pop rush is it at deity. I'm sure most people here only play impossible.

Urban Ranger · July 4, 2002, 04:33

Not me. I play only Simple

vmxa1 · July 4, 2002, 13:47

That's cool, I play all of them from time to time. I can not remember what the lowest non tutorial setting is, but that is what I use to test some features out on as it is less of a hassle and you can concentrate on what you are trying to observe.

Urban Ranger · July 5, 2002, 02:44

Don't the rules change across the levels? At least a bit in terms of percentages?

vmxa1 · July 5, 2002, 11:23

Note these are from the strat guide and may or may not apply to the final patched version.
Diplomactic: simple and easy the AI will not break treaties, except with a declaration of war.
War declaration on first contact reqirements are lowered as the level goes up. That is 7:1 edge is needed at simle, 3:1 at impossible. The willingness to retreat changes for level as well.
Production: -20% at simple scales to +50% at impossible. How they decide to expand changes.
Research: the modifier to determine the value to discover scales for each level from 20 at simple to 40 at impossible. That means is can be twice as expensive for you to learn a given tech at impossible as to simple. The AI does not change.
Monsters and Orion scale as well.

*** the above is for Moo1 *** Moo2 give next to nothing for the impact of levels settings. The one thing I have seen is that the races can get many extra picks as you get to impossible. They do not have to live with the +10 picks and can have up to around +25.

Spaced Cowboy · July 11, 2002, 16:06

Two things.

You'd think that someone would have leaked or figured out the AI advantages by level by now.

I see your point on PP, I rarely use the MM anyhow just make MIRV nukes. I'll take the other path. Also I never have a problem with building on my planets, there is always something that is needed.

vmxa1 · July 11, 2002, 17:46

Quote:

Originally posted by RPMisCOOL
Two things.

You'd think that someone would have leaked or figured out the AI advantages by level by now.

I see your point on PP, I rarely use the MM anyhow just make MIRV nukes. I'll take the other path. Also I never have a problem with building on my planets, there is always something that is needed.

If any one has come up with the low down on level advantages, they have not posted any place I have come across so far, I wish they would.

The mods that come when you learn mercs, come when you learn pollution processor as well, so no need to forgo the PP for mercs. The core waste dump will not be learned until somewhere near turn 230's. PP around 70, so 160 or more turns you are losing at least 5 ind per planet. Actually a lot more by turn 230. The accumulate lost of production would have made a big difference in a tough game. You just can not afford to pass it up IMO, unless you are a lower diff game.
We are talking about very early turn say under 200. That neans not much to build at time, that you want to tackle. True, once you have got into t300 or so and make a new planet you have no end of things to build. At turn 70 or so when you get the PP you will have AF, Freighter, CB, scout, maybe Bio, maybe a space academy. Those will be done about the time you get the PP. So you could be making colony/spy/warship. I would not as they take a very long time. If I put on PP, I shorten the time needed and gain the extra industry forever after. I do not like to make ships, if it takes more than 15 turns. I would rather move workers to sci and house to get more production.

moomin · July 12, 2002, 06:31

Yes, at imp they get at least +6 race picks each, and sometimes - I have not managed to decide when, really - they can get a whoppin +12 race picks each. Needless to say, this makes the game easier, as you play as a slaver.

Alphard · July 14, 2002, 11:37

OK- research choices:

1. Spaceport. I have almost never seen the Fighter garrison make a difference in a battle.. unless there is also a missile base.. and i almost never have it in the beginning..

2. Depends on galaxy zise and gameplan. if u are in big galaxy you probably wanna go for PP cos you dont wanna lose the production. but if u are in a tiny quick game mercs are the way to go.. They are the earliest missiles that u can use to take out Orion as long as u dump autolab and go after emission guidance.. i have done it and it is amazing.. i think it took just 7 destroyers to knock down orion.. or was it less?

3. oh and the last one (or first) is of course telepatchic.. no contest.. its spying after all