What preparation is needed before switching to Dem. Gov't???

[Bloody Monk]

ADVICE WANTED

Assumptions:
1) Playing for AC...AI has been reduced to one civ
2) Curent gov't: Fundy (via SOL)...745 Gold, Advances 4 Turns, with 20% Lux
3) Approx 90 cities...size 16 Capitol (max developed), 7 cities 6 or 7, 16 cities size 5.
4) Lots of Markets, not many Temples
5) Many units still afield...Magnetism but not Bach's (researching Theology now)
6) 24 cities are too small to celebrate now and another lot probably won't celebrate long before running out of food.
7) more than half of the tech tree is still to go
8) most cities have only one unit garrisoned within (would this negate going Commie??)

The question is what to do next?? How to proceed?? I have never done a big sprawling ICS before and I don't know what to expect. I want to get the rate for research down to 1 or 2 turns, and growth (by celebrating in Democracy) would be nice too, if possible.

1) At what size does a city need a temple with this many cities?? (Will I need to build 80)
2) Is it worth the shield loss to be democratic with these anemic cities??
3) Would it be better to stay in Fundy to fund the building program or can trade make up the difference??
4) Are there other considerations that I should be aware of??
5) Is this going to be a nightmare of micromanagement??

Thanks for your suggestions.

[Scouse Gits]

One hell of a question - I will give it a go when I have a little more on-line time available - but in a nutshell if you can get the majority of your cities celebrating under fundy you can convert to Demo -- the infrastructure requirements of a successful celebrating fundy state are the same as for a Democratic one - take a llook at the mad, mad succession game over in General

SG[1]

[Bloody Monk]

Thanks SG1

That is a good tip. So would it follow that Markets are to be preferred over Temples?? Along with one trade route and 40% Lux, and roads, most cities will celebrate. Need to find more arrows, so how about harbors (also for the food problem)?? I'll charge the maintenance to my account at Adam Smith's!!

I have Mike's but will soon lose the Gardens with rails. Maybe 40% Lux will not be enough? Is there a general rule as to when temples are needed?? I also wonder if it was a mistake to use all my (non-demanded in the SSC) camels for wonder building?? Your succession games feature more non-demanded deliveries, it seems; do you pass up the 50 shields toward a wonder for the trade route that goes with the 20-something gold delivery bonus?? I am feeling a _Godfather_ moment coming on: "I didn't know until now that it was --trade routes-- all along."

I'll reread mad, mad. I have been following those games and have learned (or have seen demonstrated) many new things. In fact, I used the Mrs. Mongol's Gold .sav as a start for this game (thank you very much!!). I picked it up at the "flowers Incident" because I was persuaded by your very "pointed" discussion about Gardens as the first WOW, and I wanted to see how it would turn out if Gardens had been built. What fun this has been!!!

Sorry for all the questions; but thanks for the ideas....

[Xin Yu]

To keep a city under DEM content, you need trade routes and Markets, Bank, Stock exchange. So produce a lot of freights and have them ready to be delivered to the target cities.

Temples, etc. are still necessary if you want cities to celebrate under DEM. Plus you need supermarket+double irrigate and harbor to get enough food for growth. Courthouse is a must unless you have a lot of cities (if your first citizens in all cities are blackhead guys then you don't need courthouse to celebrate).

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by Xin Yu
. Courthouse is a must unless you have a lot of cities (if your first citizens in all cities are blackhead guys then you don't need courthouse to celebrate).

Thanks Xin Yu...could you elaborate this point, please. I am familiar with the courthouse adding a happy face but this multiple blackhead effect is puzzling. Are you saying that if all the heads in the happy screen are black that there is no effect from adding a courthouse??

[Bloody Monk]

I've probably asked so many questions that the big picture is fogged over.

I would like to know if there are things that need doing --before-- I make the change to Dem?? I don't want to open the attitude screen and find a hopeless FUBAR....

I know I will need to reposition the units that are still afield, for example. And rehome some of them to balance out their support. I wish I knew enough to just look at a city and know that, for instance, that one will need X and Y, but not Z. And knowing how big a building program might be required, I could better judge how long to stay in Fundy for the "Urban Renewal Project" to take hold. Maybe it is unknowable??

******
Bloody Monk contemplates the maxim: Planning is best done before beginning.

[Scouse Gits]

to answer this question properly you need to carefully consider your position...

Which happy wonders do you have? I'm guessing Mike's and a soon to be defunct Garden backed by Adam Smith - do you have JSB's? how far away is CfC (a neat replacement for the Garden)? When in Fundy I think of Temples and Colosseums as mints - 80 temples = 160g/turn tithes. Nice, but not essential in Demo since with mike's & Bach's and ~20/30% luxuries you can have cities of upto ~5/6 quite happy in Demo...

What is your long-term goal?
Are you going for a high-score record? (If so you are quite seriously mad )
Are you going for the fastest launch now possible? In which case you should be thinking of manicuring 30 or so cities into 20/40/80 shield/turn production and turning the rest into camel factories ...

More info please

SG[1]

[Thoth]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk


Thanks Xin Yu...could you elaborate this point, please. I am familiar with the courthouse adding a happy face but this multiple blackhead effect is puzzling. Are you saying that if all the heads in the happy screen are black that there is no effect from adding a courthouse??

Courthouses will still add one happy person, but are unneccessary if you've got blackheads. These unlovely folk only take 2 luxuries to make them happy (regular redheads take 4). Once you get enough cities down you'll see the blackies start to appear. As a demo these folks are great if you want to grow by WLTK.

I'd suggest saving your game, holding a revolution and seeing what happens. From what you've posted, I'd guess that you're ok to switch to a Demo. I'll normally switch as soon as I develop it. (assuming I've got Mike's) With the HG still in effect, you should have an easy time growing until RR.

[geofelt]

Go do it now. With hanging gardens, and luxuries high enough(60%?) you can celebrate and build up existing cities to their current capabilities. Keep it up until the growth ebbs. At the end of the cycle, SOL will let you handle happiness with fundy for certain. A more likely government is communism. With commie, you will get few wasted shields, and decent science. Do this before hanging gardens is obsolete. After HG obsolescence, you will need to take the time to build courthouses to celebrate. Cure for cancer will do this also, but it comes late.
Don't be afraid of an unhappiness disaster. If you should find yourself with a mass of riots which you can't fix, SOL will let you change to a different government on the same turn.

[Bloody Monk]

Thanks everyone for your comments. This is a wonderful community!! I've been playing and reading these boards for many years and still discover (here) new ideas and features of the game regularly. The fun never stops!!

Previously, I played as a Perfectionist, enjoying building fully loaded cities and making a powerful Civ. I've been to AC dozens of times so I understand how to play as a Dem. But this is a new experience--large map rather than medium and ICS rather than Perfectionist.

That's why I asked for advice about --Preparation -before- going to Democracy--.

Most of the questions to me have already been answered, especially in the first post. (not being snippy, just saying, and I really do appreciate everyone's input) I've got ~90 cities that are tiny and have no improvements. I have just finished off all the AI except the Babs, with whom I intend a lot of trading. I am now making 745gold in Fundy and it will be a few turns before all the victorious invasion force (on several continents) can be brought back to cities. There is no point to being Dem if nobody can celebrate due to troops afield, right?? Also, taxes will yield very little under Dem, relatively; so now is the time for building. I aim for AC as soon as possible with the best score I can get without delaying Launch.

Sooo, in this window, is there some preparation (ie, build 85 temples) I should focus on???

Xin Yu and Thoth:
Thanks, I never knew that about courthouses.

geofelt:
"Don't be afraid of an unhappiness disaster. If you should find yourself with a mass of riots which you can't fix, SOL will let you change to a different government on the same turn."
Thanks, I did not know that. I thought I had to reload back to the end of the last turn and then choose differently if I made a bad choice. I hear your point about the urgency to not miss the window while I still enjoy HG. Thanks!!

SG1:
"in Demo since with mike's & Bach's and ~20/30% luxuries you can have cities of up to ~5/6 quite happy in Demo..."
This is what I need to know. Thanks!!! So, temples will be needed in all cities at size 5 for continued celebration (without boosting luxuries, which would lower research), and build Bach's soonest.

"Which happy wonders do you have? I'm guessing Mike's and a soon to be defunct Garden backed by Adam Smith - do you have JSB's?"
As stated earlier, I am researching Theology now and have everything before. Rails coming, but I hope I can choose something else next so as not to wreck all those "pwetty flowers".

On the excellent point about manicuring cities for shield production, do you have at hand the base level shield number (before factories, etc) to get to 80 shields/turn??? And concerning your view of record attempts--I may be crazy but not yet "seriously mad." No records wanted, here, thankyouverymuch.

Thanks, again all...

[Scouse Gits]

Originally posted by geofelt
After HG obsolescence, you will need to take the time to build courthouses to celebrate. Cure for cancer will do this also, but it comes late.

CfC doesn't come that late...and is much more effective than courthouses. After the Gardens are busted by Railroad, Darwin's should be ready to come in next turn with 8 carefully planned caravans. Industrialisation is almost certain to be one of the advances gained by this wonder and on a good day Corporation as well. Genetic Engineering requires Corporation with Medicine so the wait need not be more than a few turns.

-----------------

SG(2)

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits


CfC doesn't come that late...and is much more effective than courthouses. After the Gardens are busted by Railroad, Darwin's should be ready to come in next turn with 8 carefully planned caravans. Industrialisation is almost certain to be one of the advances gained by this wonder and on a good day Corporation as well. Genetic Engineering requires Corporation with Medicine so the wait need not be more than a few turns.

-----------------

SG(2)

Sound advice. I also try to remember to dial science back to zero and add those %'s to taxes so as not to "waste" the beakers on the free advance.

[Scouse Gits]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk I also try to remember to dial science back to zero and add those %'s to taxes so as not to "waste" the beakers on the free advance.

Plus remembering to build Darwin in a fairly new city, so enjoying all the science collected in the top end of the city queue

Used properly Darwin is very important as it allows a quick exit from the Railroad Trade Gap. The aim is to reach Corporation quickly and restore trading bonuses. Usually, its best to have Economics (one prerequisite of Corporation) before going for Railroad.

-------------------

SG(2)

[Bloody Monk]

SG2-

Would it be better to leave the science settings alone and complete Darwin in a new city?? Although you'd lose the science on the first advance, wouldn't this put you closer to the next (hopefully, CfC) advance??

[geofelt]

If your cities are small, ie less than size 8, you don't need anything. Less than 12, marketplaces will do the job. Past 12, you probably need both markets and temples to celebrate.
It's probably not worth the effort to micromanage darwin's. At most, put science to minimal because darwin's will complete the research regardless of how much you have accumulated.
With ICS, it's a pain to micromanage to get a big score.

[Scouse Gits]

BM
The sequence I prefer is as follows:

1) During the last turn whilst researching Railroad, try and put the science level at a point where your last city will bring in the advance...so having no beakers carry over into F6. This is useful, as I usually have the Gardens so an extra boost to luxuries will help with happiness if science can be reduced.

2) This is the turn where you have Railroad and are putting caravans in for Darwin's. First assess the damage caused by losing HG...if you increased luxuries the turn before everything should be OK. Build Darwin's in a relatively new city so it is completed before the more mature (science rich) cities contribute their beakers. During this turn you never deliver any commodity caravans Return your science rate to a level you can afford after adjusting for no HG.

3) Darwin is built in some scabby little size one city. The wonder gives you the tech you opted to research after Railroad and one other. After this second advance is awarded you will then have to choose another science, and it is this tech which will benefit from all the other beakers accumulating after the city building Darwin.

geofelt

If you have the timing of Darwin's wrong then you can be in a situation where your 8 caravans are giving you virtually one advance and not two.

----------------------

SG(2)

[Thoth]

Originally posted by geofelt
SOL will let you change to a different government on the same turn.

SOL is unnecessary for this. On the turn you form your new government you may hold an instant revolution to any form of government that you have the tech for. This may be repeated multiple times during this turn.

I sat down a couple of years ago and finally read the MGE manual from cover to cover , this little gem was in it. I've tried it out once or twice and it works. Very handy if you've just switched to a Demo and want to demand tribute or declare war.

[Bloody Monk]

One of the reasons I started this thread was to learn how to proceed with high efficiency; accomplish the most while doing the least. I was very thrilled to read the post by SG2 on solving the Darwin "equation". Very elegant!! Now, if I can just carry it out.... Thanks.

[Bloody Monk]

A Summary of Suggested Considerations...

Problem--Switch to Dem. Gov't with minimum Lux to celebrate + high science for quick advances.

1) Complete the happiness WOW's, probably, Bach's at this point.
2) Temples for cities at size 5 (the longer you wait for a temple the higher you have to set Lux at the expense of Science)
3) Trade routes + Market Places = Happy citizens...and, therefore, lower Lux to celebrate.
4) The Darwin Protocol for the RR junction
4a) If offered, choose Industrialization>Corp>Genetic Engr.
5) CfC to replace the Gardens (similar effect, but no flowers )
6) Courthouses where needed for that one more happy face.

Any other ideas about infrastructure??

[Scouse Gits]

As I recall a power plant, a factory and a manufacturing plant each add 50% of base shield productivity thus a base shield productivity of 32 shields yields the magic 80 (but don't forget support if you are in an inferior form of government ) .. you will often build the factory, before the offshore platform so be careful in your counting - a good trick is to forest river squares and irrigate non-river forests to plains - this gives benefits to both shields and arrows.

Remember each high production city requires two engineers to handle its pollution!

A less efficient (but easier for poor thickoes like me) way to handle the Darwin dilemma is to take the RR hit and stablise your empire, prepare your caravans for Darwin's bang in the trade caravans until the science box is full and then build Darwin in a city about n-5 in the build queue - use F5 to ensure that the five or so cities that report befoe your Darwin city put in a few beakers to ensure the advance, Darwin pops two more and your n-6 most productive cities refill the science box - if you have a couple of major cities it is just possible to pop 4 techs in a single turn - never actually made it, but got annoyingly close several times...

Glad you found all the above helpful -- we are all still learning to play this wonderful silly game...

SG[1]

[Scouse Gits]

BM
It's hard to say too much more without seeing the game. Perhaps you could post a save file.

---------------------

SG(2)

[Bloody Monk]

I had it in my mind to switch out of Fundy to Demo, thinking I would benifit by faster research and pop growth from celebrating. But the more I look at this situation, I think that would be untimely. Probably a third of the cities would not celebrate due to size; many others would require very high Lux, and the SSC is stymied by terrain problems. But the biggest problem is unit support under Demo. I built over 100 Musketeers (10g version) and with the four legs, transports and clads, plus the nearly 100 Engineers slated for Railroading, etc.--269 units requiring support under Demo. If I stay in Fundy, I'll enjoy a 1000g and 269 shield advantage. I can lay lots of track, build/buy infrastructure, and generally, prepare for a later Gov't change.

I will sketch out a brief log, point out some of the demographics, and attempt to attach a .sav file...the question is: What would you do now??
*******

The game started as a comparison of the current succession game, Mrs. Mongol's Gold, to see how building Hanging Gardens instead of Colossus would effect the game/outcome. Eventually it got to this point...
--1160 end of Greek civ
--1200 end of Russian civ...only the Babs (Allied) are left
***many would probably say, kill the Babs and be done with it, but I like the AC movie.
***at this point I am researching Theology, have 88 cities (a lot of advanced tribes and captured AI slums that will be moved a few squares), with sparse infra-
structure--10 temples, 16 Markets other than the SSC.
***the Plan--build/rush infrastructure (temples, MP, harbors), Bach's, Darwin's, CfC
--1220 coneheads learn about Theology, they turn to something called Ironhorse
--1240 Build J S Bach's
***slow research and start collecting camels in a new city for Darwin's ala SG2's Plan (see previous post above)
--1320 coneheads say these contraptions are called Railroads, they turn to Metallurgy (Industrialization not offered)
--1340 Darwin's built. Receive Metallurgy, choose Indu, and turn to Corp
***hope for CfC next, call out for 12 camels for the sacrifice
***continue the process of reassigning/relocating troops to even out support
***continue to reposition captured cities by rushing Engineers (these 'new' cities will be making freights for SS parts later)
--1360 this is the end of the first turn after building Darwin's
***now 105 cities with 70 temples, 39 MP's, and 51 harbors...1216g/4turn research

It'll take a long time to wrangle the camel's for CfC under Demo (don't you hate it when unit support drops your 10shield production in half??) So it makes sense to me to stay put until CfC is built. But once in place, celebrating will be easier in any of the Gov'ts.

So, would you make a change in the Gov't, and if so, when??

And the .sav

[Scouse Gits]

A couple of points - many here including SG(2) will tell you to go commie - not a bad plan, but i would advocate staying in Fundy for at least another several turns -- but it looks to me as if your Science rate is > 0%...
Every 10% you devote to Science under Fundy throws away 5% of your total trade arrows (up to 50% and then you chuck all 10% away if you move Science up above 50%)
The consequence of this is that in Fundy Science should normally be set to zero (with a few Eins in large cities) or at most to a nominal 10% - and let the camels roll - they do all your research and it is quite easy with a large empire (88 certainly qualifies) to get an advance every other turn by simply running everything into a nice fat bloated size 20+ capital city - even easier if there is a suitable target for home contintent trade caravans to got abroad...
Keep on civin' - sounds like you're having a great game

SG[1]

p.s. I might have a llok at your save now :doh:

[Scouse Gits]

OK - now I have looked at your save - it is a good game, but if I might offer a couple of pointers. As above - you have science at 50% this wastes a full quarter of your empire's trade. Move to 70 - 0 - 30 put an Ein in No Decorum (which can stand another couple of food caravans to make it at least 18) and use the cash to RUSH. Never allow any white goods (markets, temples, banks etc) to just build, once there are any shields in the box - buy them - you will have money coming out of your ears. With the tithes from Mike and Jo a Market place in even a size 1 dirthole increases your income by 4g/turn - build them - that now makes a temple worth 3g/turn - use the income to strengthen the infrastructure and increase the income. similarly don't build your caravans - tickle them vigorously - of course this is not cost effective (you will in general spend more cash tickling your vans than you will make by delivery) but you are buying research!
You are building engineers in tiny cities - fine in Monarchy when they only take 1 food, but in fundy they take 2! this will likely cripple the city for all time - better to have a few (3, 4) food rich cities at size 8 and have them pump out engineers and then grow back to 8 and pump out another - such cities can easily support up to 5 engineers each and are still a benefit to the Empire - your tiny cities need their three trade routes - a little cash - more celebration and RESEARCH, more than engineers - you seem to have an adequate sufficiency of these already...

Isn't this a great game? SG[1]

[Scouse Gits]

BM

Yes, I echo SG[1]'s sentiments … you do have a good game for 1360! I advise changing to a Democracy in a couple of turns. Your empire won't fall over and whilst your initial gold will be less than the present fundy government just watch it rise when those small cities double/treble in size after celebrating!

Your target should be an advance a turn coming from the science rate and ruthless trading. My plan would be:

1) Use the last turns in fundy to bring home the troops out of town. Start disbanding some, as you don't want to be crippled with shield support in demo. This is a quick way to hurry up your white goods and to prepare the 12 freights needed for CfC.

2) You have no military threat so you can forget about offensive units. Don't obtain any Babylonian cities, as you want them all to set up your trade sleaze. Corporation is coming in and that increases trade bonuses by 50%. Your main objective will be to ship demanded commodities to the green cities from your main metropolises.

3) Take a long look at the geography of the map. Build up some of the more promising cities on different continents … think of them as regional capitals. (Athens …mine wheat to silk, and Kazakhstan - 2 whales - on the former Russian mainland appear possible candidates.) The idea is to have some fat cities for some inter-continental trading. After Corporation, Automobile is the next major science target, and as soon as you have it bang in the Superhighways for the larger cities.

4) To set up the trading network you need to set up an efficient transport system, which utilises ferries, ship chains and railways. Your aim is to ship freight in one turn from one end of the map of the other.

5) The Capital Treat your palace city as if playing an OCC game. All the science wonders are here so no expense is spared in improving it. The missing roads on the silk and one gold mountain should be completed immediately. You want freight delivered from here in one turn because sometimes no supply commodity will become vacant if freight is in transit. Every turn the capital has goods to supply rush build a freight. A useful ploy is to have some nearby cities building low value units like horseman to run into the capital and disband so there are some shields in the production box each turn.

I'm glad Mrs. Mongol's Gold has proved so much fun.

------------------------------

SG(2)

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits

...Every 10% you devote to Science under Fundy throws away 5% of your total trade arrows (up to 50% and then you chuck all 10% away if you move Science up above 50%)
The consequence of this is that in Fundy Science should normally be set to zero (with a few Eins in large cities) or at most to a nominal 10% - and let the camels roll - they do all your research ...
SG[1]

Thanks for the input. I have already purchased a nonrefundable ticket to the Institute at Sticky Mouse for re-education, but before I check in could I ask a few questions, please??

I agree that keeping Science low in Fundy is sensible, but wonder if being 'fundamentalist' about it might miss exceptional situations. I am trying to save up camels for CfC and want to get through Corp and on to researching Gen Eng ASAP...so I thought I should set Science at 50% (and meant to reset some citizens to Eins, but forgot--big doh) and trade off wasted taxes for time--in this situation. Was that wrong thinking??

When you say, "let the camels roll", what does that mean in practice?? Do you send everything to the Capital even if not on the demand list?? Or do you take the time to get them delivered to a demand city???

[Scouse Gits]

"Let the camels roll" - a complex concept - in the early years of your fundamentalist sleaze - everything goes to the capital until (nearly) every city has three fat routes with the fat (20+) capital city. But in the later years there is an increase of selectivity - available trade commodities from the capital go wherever there is a demand - you may now have captured the Colossus city on a different continent... if so virtually all home continent camels go to the colossus city and camels from abroad come to the Capital - grow the Colossus city etc...

Simplistically - it is not worthwhile to send a demanded commodity from dirthole#1 to dirthole#2 - but if either of the cities are "major" then go for it

And yes - exceptional circumstances are the norm - of course to ensure the timely arrival of a key tech advance you put the Science rate up - but always be aware of the enormous waste of doing this...

SG[1]

[Bloody Monk]

Thanks for your comments.

I have learned and usually follow the practice of 'one turn build and rush' for 'white goods'; and I micro manage the camel farms by tickling. And gold/turn is up by half in the last few turns as 80 temples and markets have been completed, so I understand that point very well. I need help with the point about boosting the pop in the Cap to 18 or 20.

At present, food balance is zero and there are no more arrow generating squares. I am transforming hills to plains but this takes time. My understanding is that if the food box is not at least half full it will take two food vans to add pop. Then if it became an Ein the foodbox would go below the line again, needing two vans again the next time. Haven't had a lot of extra camels, either. Please explain if I am way off base here. Perhaps the presence of a couple of Eins would be more useful than I imagine???

The point about building Engineers in tiny cities is well taken. My Plan is based on staying in Fundy for a while and using the taxes to buy aquaducts, etc, so that once I get to Demo many cities will grow. While doing that the rail system will be put in place. The little cities will build a few roads, maybe irragate a square or two, then reabsorb their Engineers before going to Demo where shields will be more of a concern. Wasn't planning on keeping 100+ Engineers around forever. Does that make any sense??

And yes, SG1, this game is the best!!!

[Scouse Gits]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
At present, food balance is zero and there are no more arrow generating squares. I am transforming hills to plains but this takes time

I think your engineers are better employed by putting the roads on the silk and the other gold mountain. As I mentioned on the last page...go Demo...sooner not later

---------------

SG(2)

[Scouse Gits]

You are not "way off base", but have missed a key point - a food caravan not only half fills the box, but increases the food production by 1 sheaf (if this is a new route) - so 6 vans each from a different (food rich) city will not only grow the city between 3 & 6 population points (dependant upon the state of the food box) but also increase the food for the city by 6 sheafs ie support a further three population themselves.

I don't think (2) and I are in disagreement - the Fundy Exchequer will be less usefull in half a dozen turns by which time you will be fairly well supplied with white goods - then, by all means, go Demo ...

* I'll never speak to you again of course - I hate Democrats - mumble, where's my shaman, mumble *

SG[1]