ship designs in mid and late game

vmxa1 · July 7, 2002, 17:27

I was just wondering what designs are being use at the three stages of the game. Ok, not the first stage as early comes down to missile boats or laser battleships.
I will skip the mid game as there are too many varibales, such as what tech you have and your research and situation. Altough I would like to hear others on it.
Late game or after all 3500 rp research at least. This is also affected by tech you have. If non creative, I will go to plasma cannons as that is one field I can be sure to pick a good beam, I may have none of the others. Once I get dispupters, I may switch or put them on new ships to handle things that the cannons are not good at. If I have phasors, I may use them instead of the cannons with most of the mods they are very good. Not much changes if I have creative, except later I will be able to make better ships with good computer and specials. I normally do not make Doom stars and only a few titans. In fact most of the time I will not have the tech to make titans or doom stars, unless I steal it. In the past I tended to only put either H. armor (if I had it or reinforced hulls. Battle scanner and weapons until I was really rolling and then I may add HEF and Stabilizers. I did play a game that I was creative recently and when very late into it, so I made a doom stars with all of the good stuff. HA, R. Hull, Nullifier, Archilles, structure Anal, pods, damper (from Orion) andI forgot the other. I put one stellar on to destory planets and the rest phasors with CO,SP,AF,HV (miss any?) no PD. This was a fun ship as even with out Time/cloaks and X-caps it was bullet proof and tore up everything in sight. This has made me reconsider using these specials. If the ship can not be bust or nearly so, that is very nice. In the game someone made they had made the space dragons much tougher and it was able earlier to wreck 6 BB and 1 titan with out any return fire. This Doom Star took the hits with nearly no damage and killed it with ease. Oh, the other spcial was ARU. I noticed the dooms and titans did not have shields? Maybe that is normal, since I hardly use them, I had not realized it.

ravagon · July 8, 2002, 01:50

Hey! You stole my Doomstar!

Or very nearly anyway.

I tend to use the same combo of specials on all my later ships (battleships and above) except for maybe a phase-cloaked small ship with a wide-area jammer and a warp dissipator, and maybe a DS with a stellar converter for taking out planetary defenses.

Pods (obviously)
Auto-repair
Reinforced hull
Hi Energy Focus
Achilles (penetrates shields? or is that the Structural analyser?)
Time Warp Fac.
Damper (reduces damage taken to 1/4 and works fabulously with the auto-repair and reinforced hull).
Don't remember the last one - possibly the other of SA or achilles - above

Or something along those lines.
Weapons are basically all phasors (mix of heavy and medium) with all the trimmings, plus a battery of plasma guns for anti-missile defense (for some reason these are utterly lethal to missile volleys ? ).

Vmxa - Titans/DS's do have shields until you equip the damper, which removes/replaces them, to great effect but with very little size difference between the two.

The real killers IMO are the shield/armour penetrating phasers and the damper-auto-repair combos. Has to be seen to be believed.

vmxa1 · July 8, 2002, 02:35

Quote:

Originally posted by ravagon

Vmxa - Titans/DS's do have shields until you equip the damper, which removes/replaces them, to great effect but with very little size difference between the two.

The real killers IMO are the shield/armour penetrating phasers and the damper-auto-repair combos. Has to be seen to be believed.

Ah, that was it. I was too lazy to dig in the doc to figure it out. That makes sense as I can't recall using it before. I usually don't bother making unkillable ships, but figured it might be fun and it was. A DS with X-armor and the the goodies listed had 4500 points for arm and structure. With the ARU, it would be very hard to take down. I know that phased cloaks and TWF can make it even harder. I will be incorporating some of these things into future ships. The problem is that without creative it is hard to get the tech needed until the game is in the bag. I did it because the map was huge and many systems were still occupied. I wanted a ship that could go out on its own and hammer down some of those planets.

moomin · July 8, 2002, 08:04

Late game?

Battle scanner
Battle pods
Heavy armour
High energy focus
Achilles tag
Structural analyser
Damper field

Biggest hull (so, Doomstar) best Armour (if Xentronium, skip heavy armour above)

Fill upp with as many auto-firing disruptors as you can fit into it.

vmxa1 · July 8, 2002, 14:52

Moom, I like and use disrupters as well. If you drop the heavy armor it cost you triple armor.
DS with HA and X-armor 4500 structure 4500 armor 220 beam attack 217 beam defense.
DS with Achilles instead of HA (has X-arm) 4500 structure 1500 armor 190 BA 185 BD. I do not know if the boost to hit chances and bypass armor will make it worth doing. I would rather take the increase survivability. If I live, I can eventually kill them. It may be situational. Against the AI, you will not see too many ships that can take the DS out.

ravagon · July 8, 2002, 21:38

Question :-

Reinforced hull or heavy armour? (Assuming you only have 1 slot to assign to one of these)

Advantages/disadvantages to both but I'm curious as to which seems to work better for most matchups people have gone into.

vmxa1 · July 8, 2002, 21:58

HA triples armor and Reenforced Hulls triples structure. In games that I am not creative, I have only the hulls, so thats what I use. If I have both, I use both now. If you know what the AI is using for weapons, you could use one only. Early, most use missiles or beams that do not bypass armor, so HA is best. Later when you have much better armor and they switch to structure destroying weapons, the Hull is better. AP and SP weapons are the ones that make you change.

moomin · July 9, 2002, 09:09

One reason to go for heavy armour - if possible - is that it negates armour piercing weapons. Xentronium does this all by itself, so there's no need for heavy armour with it.

MaxisDugan85 · July 9, 2002, 14:22

Ditto (more or less) on the Doomstar above. Auto/ap/sp phasers are my favs because at later stages of the game you can pack soooo many of them onto a DS. I have cleaned out many a game with a fleet of six of these monsters. (leaving a few to gaurd the homefront , of course) I have recently discovered the beauty of auto Disrupters and sometimes refit my DS's with batterys of them as "main guns" One stellar converter each is also a must , for softening planet defenses and to handle those lovely moments where the AI decides to throw everything they have at you at once. With strc anyl/bat scan and high en foc you can take out one DS with each (usually) I especially target thier stellar gunships first with this tactic. Those things hurt!

Quote:

Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?!?!

Urban Ranger · July 18, 2002, 00:17

Quote:

Originally posted by moominparatrooper
One reason to go for heavy armour - if possible - is that it negates armour piercing weapons. Xentronium does this all by itself, so there's no need for heavy armour with it.

Not so. Heavy armour gives you triple armour points.

Urban Ranger · July 18, 2002, 00:21

Special systems:

Heavy armour
reinforced hull
battlepods
structural analyzer
high energy focus
achilles targeting system
damper shield
automatic repair

best armour available

weapon - phasor with shield piercing and autofire. No use for heavy and continuous

A stellar converter if I need to attack planets

vmxa1 · July 18, 2002, 01:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

Not so. Heavy armour gives you triple armour points.

Even if it did negate AP, it still triples the armor value. I would like to have it, if I have it. X-arm + HA is 4500 points. I can afford to do with out some extra offensive special, since I will be around after they fire.

vmxa1 · July 18, 2002, 01:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Heavy armour/reinforced hull/battlepods/structural analyzer/high energy focus/achilles targeting system
damper shield/automatic repair
best armour available
weapon - phasor with shield piercing and autofire. No use for heavy and continuous
A stellar converter if I need to attack planets

This is the one I most often use on BB or Titan without the ARU. Then DOOM star with stellar if I have then and repalce th phasor with disrupter. Now I can handle anything, ships or planets. One problem is I often do not have structure anal/achilles/HA. I may have them by the time I get to making DS.

Garth Vader · July 18, 2002, 13:25

Even if it did negate AP,

It does negate AP, but not Achilles.

vmxa1 · July 18, 2002, 14:33

Ok, I was too lazy to verify it, but was sure that AP and EMP bypass armour, except for X-arm and HA. Those do block AP. No upgrade or armor has any effect on EMP. This is a good reason to add R-Hulls, to get the triple structure boost. Anyway, I normally do not have HA, so it is a moot point, but interesting.

Garth Vader · July 18, 2002, 14:56

I use AP lasers in the early game so I always fear an AI with HA. I like using it rather than reinforced hull because my luck tends to be bad, once a ship of mine starts getting the structure damaged it blows up or gets immobile real fast, even with R-hull.

vmxa1 · July 18, 2002, 15:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Garth Vader
I like using it rather than reinforced hull because my luck tends to be bad, once a ship of mine starts getting the structure damaged it blows up or gets immobile real fast, even with R-hull.

We all like to use HA, but the problem is that if you are not creative, you must pick AF over HA. I often do not even take Class I shields and may not have the T-arm, if I am a tele. I may need to pick the fuel cells instead, oh the pains of non creative.

Garth Vader · July 18, 2002, 16:15

I always have to trade/steal it too. I wish I could get missile base too. That's a tough tech pick.

I always take class 1 though. What do you take, Mass driver?

vmxa1 · July 18, 2002, 16:24

I am not consistent about that pick. Sometimes Cl I other times Mass Driver. It depends on what I see as my most likey beam picks before 3500RP. I just do not see the Class one shields as a big help. I wish planetary missiles was in the bunch, I can forgo all of the stuff in that group. Instead we get AF/MB/HA and only get one of them. I want all of them (wah wah). In one sense it is not a tough pick, since I must have AF, on the other hand, it is rough as I like all of them.

Garth Vader · July 18, 2002, 18:03

I always take class 1 because I don't get another till class 5.

In one sense it is not a tough pick, since I must have AF, on the other hand, it is rough as I like all of them.

True, same with me.

The Zortruim group is usually worse as I always want all, and the one I pick is usually different depending on what I can steal.

vmxa1 · July 18, 2002, 19:02

Yup, I skip Cl III often in favor of rad shields and may not have any shields till V as well. Rough huh. Last nights game, I did not take the Rad Shield and could not terraform some planets, that hurt.
I seem to have more luck stealing Z-arm and often get to this point with it in the bank. I got it and did not get Rad until the game was in the extended tech.

Urban Ranger · July 28, 2002, 10:19

I guess what you take can depend on the sort of opponents you have. Some tend to pick certain advances over others.

moomin · July 28, 2002, 11:57

I go for class 1 shield as well. Not that I think it's optimal, because shields are among those techs that seem to jump to you first thing when you start spying or conquer.

Alphard · July 31, 2002, 03:16

I never use Auto Repair.. Because none of my battles last long enough for it to matter.. it is always a landslide in one direction.. either by ships blow them away easy, or i am outgunned so bad that i would lose the battle anyhow.. i just use the space for additional weapons..

moomin · July 31, 2002, 08:55

Alphy. I agree. Between defense and offence, I tend to go for more guns every time. I even forgo heavy armour in favor of more guns most of the time.

About the only reason to go for defensive systems is if you know that the enemy has the initiative. In which agumented engines are more valuable anyway...

vmxa1 · July 31, 2002, 13:04

Class I shields are a toss up. Sometimes I take them others I take Mass Drivers. It depends on what the next beam I intend to get is. Here is what you get: strength = 5 * (class * size). Class is 1, so str = ship size times 5. At the time you have class I, it will be 3*5 or less, until you make BB. It will not absorb a lot of damage, but some. The regen is 30% per round. This is spread over the 4 shields. So say 8% on CA is less than 2. If you are being hit by weapons tha do less than 2 damage, you got no problems. So it is a take it or leave item, not a big deal.
ARU is just a waste IMO, as every one is saying, take the extra weapons, unless you are making at least titans and maybe only DS. Here it is more useful than an extra weapon. This is because the large values can keep the ship alive and they already have plenty of weapons, one more will not help as much as being repaired.
Moom, you just can't justify taking a weapon for HA. It triples armour. That is 100 * 3 = 300 for the lowest improved armor. What weapon is worth that until very late in the action?

Alphard · August 1, 2002, 00:27

actually i dont take HA either.. what is it together with? factories? or space port? anyways i always just use reinf hull that is the next best thing. true, you will start losing systems faster but thats ok.. besides armor piercing will not bother that much..

i think that i saw in some thread that HA is supposedly immune to armor piercing... not so as far as i have seen.. or perhaps the enemy had achilles or something.. but i have seen several times the enemy shoot past my heavy armour..

vmxa1 · August 1, 2002, 00:49

Sorry, I was not clear again. I do not pick HA out of the the three choices (MB/HA/AF). This is probably the toughest choice, but you must go with AF here. I think we were talking about using HA, if you had it, not picking it. So if you traded or stole or were creative and had HA, it would be unwise not to use it and go for an extra gun IMO. EMP and AP pierce armor except you get partial protection if HA or X-armour for AP. Nothing stops EMP.

moomin · August 1, 2002, 06:18

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
Moom, you just can't justify taking a weapon for HA. It triples armour. That is 100 * 3 = 300 for the lowest improved armor. What weapon is worth that until very late in the action?

Well, your numbers are right, but I find I don't need it against the AI. First punch is everything with beam boats, so I usually go for that. My governing equation is number of best heavy beams/CP.

vmxa1 · August 1, 2002, 20:34

Well many paths are valid, but I figure that keeping a ship alive for another round is the top consideration. If I have 2 less beams, but do not die in the first round, I am better off. If I have no fights that can kill my ship and I can count on that, then fine. If that were true, then a few less guns is of no concern either, as I can not lose. So the three scenarios are 1- I can't lose 2- I can't win 3- it is up for grabs. Forget 1 and 2, only the last one can be impacted. In the early part you will have less ships than they do so it is rare to have the edge in numbers and often at the stage I will not have the edge in tech yet either. So in a straight up fight 1 on 1 it is about surviving. He I had triple armor, I like my changes better than if not. They will not be using AP weapons at this point, so if they have 100 and I have 300 I will win unless they can hit be more than 3 times as hard. If they can do that I got bigger problems. So if you are not doing any fight of the 3rd category, then it does not matter.