Acceptance of Plan Eagle

Jon Shafer · July 7, 2002, 19:36

I know it's early, but I wanted to get the general feeling of how people have reacted to my proposed invasion strategy for America.

You can find the discussion going on about the plan here.

Keep in mind, things can be altered (when the two armies combine forces, for example), so the plan won't be "This is 100% how we will invade America..." It will be more flexible than that, and there will no doubt be changes to the plan as it gets closer to the time of invasion.

jdd2007 · July 7, 2002, 19:39

future foreign affairs minister supports it

LordImpact · July 7, 2002, 19:43

Plan Eagle rawks! Warhawks and Imperialists of the world unite! Vote YES for Plan Eagle!

--Impact

Epistax · July 7, 2002, 19:50

all i can do is take off my shirt, whirl it in circles, and say, w00t.

ThePlagueRat · July 7, 2002, 20:06

Good going, the flexibility of this plan is what makes it so great!

notyoueither · July 7, 2002, 20:12

I'd like to hear from where the 12 units that Eagle calls for as a minimum would come from and in how long.

Jon Shafer · July 7, 2002, 20:48

The target timespan will be around 30 turns before sufficient forces can be allocated. I have compiled an estimate of how long it will be before each city expands, what improvements to terrain will be made, which tiles are to be worked on, etc. at maximum city efficiency in producing units to get my numbers.

After 30 turns:

Apolyton will have produced 7 Veteran Archers or Spearmen.

Termina will have produced Barracks and 4 Veteran Archers or Spearmen.

Banana HQ will have produced Settler and 3 Regular Archers or Spearmen.

'Blue City' will have been founded, and have produced 2 Regular Archers or Spearmen.

This gives us a total of: 11 Veteran Archers or Spearmen, and 5 Regulars. This total of 17 units will be a suitable force to allocate between the 1st and 2nd Armies, as well as keeping a 'home defense reserve' 3rd Army as well.

FrostyBoy · July 7, 2002, 21:00

I support it, but just before you attack, suck em dry.

Verto · July 7, 2002, 22:42

And when you do it, make sure you've got some appropriate music playing in the background...Imperial March comes to mind...

notyoueither · July 7, 2002, 22:49

Ride of the Valkyries.

LordImpact · July 7, 2002, 22:49

March Slav

notyoueither · July 8, 2002, 00:15

OK. This is how I figure it. I have tried to anticipate waste and population growth. For Instance, Termia will grow, but I assume the fourth shield will be lost to waste.

px(y) Population of x [total] grows in y [number or turns]
sp (spearman) ar (archer) se (settler) Ba (barracks)
sp, ar, se or Ba(x) building/unit complete in x [turns]
sp or ar0x Veteran spear or archer and the number of that unit complete
arxy Regular archer and the number of that unit complete

Code:

--------------  Apolyton  ---  Termina   ---  BananaHQ  ---  BlueCity
T00. 2070bc -- p1(2)sp(3) --- p1(4)Ba(12) -- p2(10)se(12) -
-           --
-           -- p2(10)
-           -- sp01/sp(5)
-           --            --- p2(10)
T05. 1870bc --
-           --
-           --
-           -- sp02/ar(5)
-           --
T10. 1700bc --            ---            --- p3(??)
-           --
-           -- p3(--)     --- Ba/ar(5)   --- p1(10)se/ar(15)
-           -- ar01/ar(3) ---            ---            --- se mv 1
-           --            --- p3(--)     ---            --- se mv 2
T15. 1575bc --            ---            ---            --- se mv 3
-           -- ar02/ar(3) ---            ---            --- FND/ar(10)
-           --            --- ar03/ar(5) ---            --- p1(9)
-           --
-           -- ar04/ar(3)
T20. 1450bc --
-           --
-    1400bc -- ar05/ar(3) --- ar06/ar(5) --- p2(10)
-           --
-           --
T25. 1325bc -- ar07/sp(3)
-           --            ---            ---            --- p2(10)arx1/xx
-           --            --- ar08/xx    --- arx2/xx    ---
-           -- sp03/xx
-           --
T30. 1200bc --
-           --
-           --
-           --
-           --
T35. 1075bc --

Jon Shafer · July 8, 2002, 00:17

How do you do that.

notyoueither · July 8, 2002, 00:25

I can see 8 vet and 2 reg archers, as well as 3 spearmen complete within 28 turns.

This would allow for 2 armies of 1 spear, 4 vet archer. 1 reg archer for each of New York and Washington. If that does not do the job, we should look for other work.

The last spear could follow the New York army to garrison NY so that the army could move on to engage the enemy elsewhere (with it's vet spear escort). It would be very close to the stack (1 tile max if ar08 and arx2 are sent to NewYork).

I have previously recommended an approach on Washington from the East. This would be optimal since we can use the diagonal from the East to arrive at Washington in 2 turns after war is declared and not be on the wrong side of a river. We just have to hope that Abe doesn't build a city east of Washington. Keep a warrior around so that we can spot that eventuality early. The first 4/1 archers and 1 spear completed can be sent early to move into position for this thrust.

It would greatly speed things along if we link Apolyton with Blue City and on to BananaHQ with a road prior to the war. This will speed the last units to the front, and speed the arrival of dyes and horses for Apolyton and Termina.

After the third spear, I really recommend Apolyton switch to a settler. We really do need to expand our borders towards the French, unless we want Joan to build barracks within 6 or 7 tiles of Apolyton.

notyoueither · July 8, 2002, 00:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Trip
How do you do that.

Start at the beginning and count.

It looks harder than it is.

/Edit. Sir Ralph will be along any minute to point out some deficiencies. BTW. Who can spot the first error? Hint, it has to do with building a new city.

Jon Shafer · July 8, 2002, 00:36

I've modified Plan Eagle for a few different strategic moves. You'll be able to see it at the site soon, since I updated it, and included Plan Eagle in it.

As far as the fewer units, I predicted that it might be less, since I didn't account for waste, and I only estimated when the cities would expand. We may have to wait a few more turns for more 'rounds' of units, since I'm not sure if each army containing 5 units will be enough.

I definitely feel that all of the Archer units must be Veterans, while the Spearmen can be Regulars. I seriously doubt that America will counter-attack, so what I'd really want is to have all Archers, but I have to appease those who fear a counter-attack.

As far as changing production to Settler with Apolyton, I'm not sure if I like that idea much, though I do see the necessity of it. Apolyton will be able to build a Veteran Archer ever three turns, which is incredibly useful.

Robber Baron · July 8, 2002, 00:41

So each stack attacks with 4 vet. archers, + 1 reg. archer. Not exactly overwhelming odds in our favor. We'll take at least one of the cities.
Perhaps, just to make sure we take Washington, we should load that stack with 5 vets., and send the two rookies to New York.

notyoueither · July 8, 2002, 00:45

Trip,

All vet archers. Oh. I saw you mention a few regulars elsewhere and thought... Gee, they could clean up wounded units and destroy full strength horse. Not a bad idea. Gets us on the road to America sooner also.

re Apolyton and settlers... Well, if the first rush does not cripple the Americans we go from a bad position to worse. We can't hold up settlement of our own environs indefinitely. I really hope that we catch New York with 2 pop and thus capture it. We will need it to keep pace with the other 14 civs in the game (it was huge with 16, right). Even then, we will have forfeited 4 settlers by the time 8/2/3 are completed. That is close to the limit that we should sacrifice.

OK. If Joan comes a knockin, we build units with Apolyton. No brainer. However, if we cripple Abe and Joan stays peaceful the 5 to 7 archers left over after NY and Washington are taken should be able to convince Abe to make peace and give us a bunch more techs. We can complete the subjugation of the Americans with horse and sword in another 20 turns.

Jon Shafer · July 8, 2002, 01:08

Hmmm, I hadn't expected waste and city expansion to take so much out of the armies...

I fear that unless we have at least 5 Veteran Archers per army, then we won't be able to proceed with the plan. Losses twice as heavy as the enemy are to be expected, and if we go in with 4 Archers and 1 Spearman, then chances are the offensive portion of both armies will be eliminated... I must express my demands for more time to build a force, or else Plan Eagle will be a failure.

Also, I've added a full report of the plan to my site. You could go hunt for it, but since I'm so nice, I decided to link you to it here.

It's somewhat heavy on the CPU, so be patient while it loads.

notyoueither · July 8, 2002, 01:13

Nice tune.

I'll 'run the numbers' for 10 vet archers. BTW, my production numbers are worst case, they may be better times than I originally posted (and will continue to so).

Jon Shafer · July 8, 2002, 01:18

Quote:

Originally posted by notyoueither
Nice tune.

I'm glad someone didn't get so frustrated waiting for the page to load that he just didn't care to look at it.

Quote:

I'll 'run the numbers' for 10 vet archers. BTW, my production numbers are worst case, they may be better times than I originally posted (and will continue to so).

I definitely feel that at least 5 Veteran Archers per army is a necessity. Hopefully in 30 turns we'll have that many... if not, we'll need more time otherwise the plan will fail.

notyoueither · July 8, 2002, 01:40

How about 9 vet archers? That would give 5 vets for Washington.

Also, you are saying that the complete destruction of the Americans is required. Is that necessary? Is that desirable? If we destroy them, they cannot surrender and give us tech (for free essentially; actually it cost us many settlers).

At any rate, by turn 32 (at the latest) you would have 10 vet archers.

What about BanHQ and Blue city switching to settlers after the 2 reg archers, leaving Apolyton and Termina to build vet units?

MrWhereItsAt · July 8, 2002, 02:14

Duel of the Fates.

or Rammstein's Links 2 3 4.

GoodFella · July 8, 2002, 02:20

I"ve been gone for awhile.

What happened to Case Pink?

Spiffor · July 8, 2002, 02:25

It seems we'll attack America first, so we're not calling the invasion plan "Case Pink" anymore. Plan Eagle is an extension of Case pink, as we produce some more units before starting the invasion

Harovan · July 8, 2002, 02:33

I refuse the complete annihilation of America in this early stage. For pruning them, 2 spears and 6 archers, as was planned in Case Pink, is enough. I would say, after the Case Pink buildup is complete, we rush a temple, build settlers to fill autorazed gaps and then build reinforcements to prune France as well.

notyoueither · July 8, 2002, 02:37

What dangers do you see in waiting 6 extra turns for 8/2 v/r archers and 3 vet spear?

Harovan · July 8, 2002, 02:44

First, if we don't have settlers at hand, we won't be able to take full advantage from the conquered terrain. Second, I want to avoid the extermination of the Americans so early, and it's unlikely that they can be exterminated with 6/2. This force is calculated for pruning.

I would approve the plan, if there was a consensus to send the force straight to France after pruning America. This would be the best what can happen.

notyoueither · July 8, 2002, 02:56

Sir Ralph,

I have discussed pruning America as opposed to destroying them with Trip in chat. I believe he agrees with me now. He can state otherwise if he wishes.

Here are the reasons I gave.

1. We can most likely capture NewYork and Washington, if the attack is surprise (NY would not yet be able to pop rush and would very likely be at 2 pop).

2. If we take NewYork and Washington, then parry any American thrusts for 6 or 7 turns, we can then bring Abe to the table and gain tech and perhaps another city in a peace deal.

3. In another 20 turns we can exterminate the Americans if that is what is considered wise. However, if we exterminate them now, we will most likely not capture a third city, and we will gain no tech. We will have sacrificed as many as 4 settlers and not maximised our returns.

4. If we let them live temporarily, they will most likely contribute to cheaper tech for us when they gain tech though AI trading.

I have also campaigned with him that 1 or 2 cities should turn to settlers when the initial forces are complete. Either Apolyton (can build archer/spear in 3 at 3 pop) or BanHQ and BlueCity (without barracks and 7 to 10 turns for archer) should switch once initial forces are complete.

I agree with a surprise attack to maximise chances of success and minimize loses. I agree with making peace for tech and cities. What say you Apolytoners?

Jon Shafer · July 8, 2002, 03:17

Sir Ralph, Eagle can be applied both to the annihilation of a civ, as well as the pruning. It all depends on what people want. The existence of the civ is not an important factor in the plan... While it's designed for the destruction of the Americans, we can cut off the offensive whenever we choose.