Osama bin Laden is dead - Page 2

moomin · July 11, 2002, 11:08

Yes, because asking the Islamofascist to refrain from terror is just so humiliating, innit? It's their Allah-given right to blow up civilians after all.

Sirotnikov · July 11, 2002, 11:39

Roland, I want to comment on that.

The problem with versailles is double.

First, it was indeed very humiliating and cruel.
Second, it was almost not enforced.

So basically, you have done enough to create hatred and rage, but then failed to enforce it. You werent' consistent, which is exactly what is hapenning now.

No matter what path you choose you must be consistent.

It's possible that WWII wouldn't have happenned if there wasn't Versailles. But it is also true that WWII wouldn't have happenned if Versailles had been actually enforced on Hitler.

Also remember that the post-WWII situation in Germany wasn't that much better. Germany was infact humiliated. It was presented to itself as not only a loser, but a vicious and cruel people. All of it's leaders were publically trialed and executed.

If anything, according to your theory, WWIII should have arised.

But it hasn't - because your theory isn't exact and isn't complete.

What prevented WWIII was that German expantionism and naziism was crushed. Completely. First using Military force, and then using Education and Commerce.

And this is what we are not doing with Islam. We have crushed them militarily in Afghanistan. But anti-western Madrasas are still very active in every musim country. Heck - even England has a madrasa paradise. I specifically recall several muslim preachers warning the UK, that there are as they defined it "terrorist schools" in England's madrasas.

It is that approach of not finishing what you started, that caused WWII.

Chris 62 · July 11, 2002, 11:45

Siro, your drawing the wrong conclusion from history.

At the end of WWI Germany was treated as a villain and knew it wasn't.

At the end of WWII they knew they were.

Ned · July 11, 2002, 11:51

Bin Laden, Hitler and Elvis live!

Boris Godunov · July 11, 2002, 11:54

Germany wasn't humiliated after WWII, they were chastened. The revelations of the horrors of the Holocaust is what made the difference.

WWI wasn't Germany's fault, but it was impossible to deny that WWII was a war begun by Hitler.

chequita guevara · July 11, 2002, 11:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris 62
Siro, your drawing the wrong conclusion from history.

At the end of WWI Germany was treated as a villain and knew it wasn't.

At the end of WWII they knew they were.

Actually, I think you're both right.

chequita guevara · July 11, 2002, 11:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
WWI wasn't Germany's fault, but it was impossible to deny that WWII was a war begun by Hitler.

I will.

WWII was started by the Japanese invasion of China in 1937.

Arrian · July 11, 2002, 11:59

Heh. People often forget about that whole "Pacific theatre" thingy.

-Arrian

Chris 62 · July 11, 2002, 11:59

Nope, Musolini invaded Abyssinia in 36.

Boris Godunov · July 11, 2002, 12:01

Ok folks, back to reality...and stop jacking my thread.

Roland · July 11, 2002, 12:07

Quote:

Originally posted by moominparatrooper
Yes, because asking the Islamofascist to refrain from terror is just so humiliating, innit? It's their Allah-given right to blow up civilians after all.

You managed to put an amazing amount of bollocks into a sentence that short.

There is Islam, Islamism and Islamist terrorism. Islam is no problem. Islamism is a cultural problem. And Islamist terrorism is a police and partly military problem.

Following a one-sided pro-Israel policy, blahing about crusades or invading Iraq because it's an old family feud addresses those problems how ?

Roland · July 11, 2002, 12:13

Siro:

"First, it was indeed very humiliating and cruel."

How was it cruel ?

"Second, it was almost not enforced."

It was until the late 20s.

"If anything, according to your theory, WWIII should have arised."

I didn't present a theory. I replaced a silly analogy with a remotely appropriate one.

What is that ("my") theory ?

"And this is what we are not doing with Islam. We have crushed them militarily in Afghanistan. But anti-western Madrasas are still very active in every musim country."

We (who exactly ?) shall militarily crush and then reeducate "Islam" ?

"It is that approach of not finishing what you started, that caused WWII."

On that level, I can say according to your theory, we should have had WW III because the Morgenthau plan was not finished.

Lincoln · July 11, 2002, 12:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

Ok folks, back to reality...and stop jacking my thread.

I think OSB is dead. Too bad no one got the reward.

Boris Godunov · July 11, 2002, 12:22

I will present a gen-u-ine OBL bone fragment, I guarantee, for $10 million dollars...

Sava · July 11, 2002, 12:56

No, the Predator was an alien hunter who has come to Earth for hundreds of years hunting humans. He sees primarily in infared and has advanced technologies. Arnold Schwarzenegger killed one and Danny Glover almost did.

Tingkai · July 11, 2002, 13:01

Quote:

Originally posted by MarkG
so now we've started telling ourselves stuff in order to believe them....

repeat after me class:

OBL is dead
OBL is dead
OBL is dead
OBL is dead
OBL is dead
OBL is dead
....

Sandman · July 11, 2002, 13:39

A disappointing thread. I thought that it would have some actual evidence for bin Ladens death.

Instead what we have is an appeal to think that he is too arrogant to remain silent. Silly.

SnowFire · July 11, 2002, 23:25

DinoDoc: I can not comment on this part because I have no knowledge of the specifics surrounding it.

I'm no expert either, but from what I understand, he's pretty much right. Islam was never terribly happy under colonialism and still remembered the crusades, but in the 20's and earlier, the intellectuals tended to be of a more modernist sort (those who deride them would say that they compromised with the West and tried to integrate it into Islam, which can never be done). Sayyid Qutb was the one who tried to get down an Islamic opposition to the West and what it stood for.

If you ever have an hour to burn and access, I recommend skimming Milestones, Qutb's main book. Some fun stuff in there. Basically he draws the distinciton between Koranically based ideas and jahyllia (sp?! memory not perfect), Arabic for the time before the coming of the Koran, so in other words confused and not really God-based. He then, needless to say, identifies pretty much all Western thought as jahyllia. he then tries to build a society based solely on the Koran, which can be a bit difficult being that while the Koran was a book big on law, it's only so large and it still doesn't cover a lot. So Mr. Qutb came up with his own answers for us. Anyway, what should be done about the jahyllia West? Basically, you shouldn't learn anything except from pious Muslims, ideally. Learning "hard" sciences from Westerners (engineering, physics) is okay, as long as you scrupuously ignore the philosophy behind it and then teach it to your kids so they don't have to go to the West to learn it. The "soft" sciences (psychology, economics) are all completely corrupted and should be completely discarded; only trust the Koran.
And oh yes, all Western seeming attempts of aid are illusory; the Crusades are still being fought, so any and all Western attempts at help are actually cynical attempts to corrupt and ruin Islam. Yup, there's nobody good-intentioned among us. Jewish bankers are involved too somehow, they're evil and also commanding the west to destroy Islam.

Dr Strangelove · July 11, 2002, 23:36

I'm mystified. If he's dead why wouldn't al-Qeada announce it to the world? Even if he died of kidney failure they could easily blame America and make him a martyr, which is basically what they're all about. His number two could then step up and collect on the symapathy factor generated by OBL's martyrdom to re-establish his organization's pre-eminence among disgruntled Muslims.

GeneralTacticus · July 11, 2002, 23:42

Quote:

How was it cruel ?

It blamed them for a war they didn't start, stripped them of a lot of territory, and imposed a reparations bill on them that they couldn't hope to pay, as well as stripping them of their military power.

Alexander's Horse · July 12, 2002, 03:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
I'm mystified. If he's dead why wouldn't al-Qeada announce it to the world? Even if he died of kidney failure they could easily blame America and make him a martyr, which is basically what they're all about. His number two could then step up and collect on the symapathy factor generated by OBL's martyrdom to re-establish his organization's pre-eminence among disgruntled Muslims.

Exactly

I've seen no evidence he's dead. It would be almost impossible to keep quiet.

MarkG · July 12, 2002, 04:04

horsie, you only agree cause you had betted on it, isnt it?

Alexander's Horse · July 12, 2002, 04:06

Quote:

Originally posted by MarkG
horsie, you only agree cause you had betted on it, isnt it?

No Mark - I only betted on it because I agreed

MarkG · July 12, 2002, 04:10

yeak, ok, right

Chris 62 · July 12, 2002, 07:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
I'm mystified. If he's dead why wouldn't al-Qeada announce it to the world? Even if he died of kidney failure they could easily blame America and make him a martyr, which is basically what they're all about. His number two could then step up and collect on the symapathy factor generated by OBL's martyrdom to re-establish his organization's pre-eminence among disgruntled Muslims.

Because it would be saying Bush and the Yankee imperialists won, even if it's natural causes.

Let's talk about martyrdom, do people really fight harder for some dead man of the cause?

Can you think of famous martys who inspired their followers long after death?

I can't think of any off-hand, the truth is, we fear it more then the rteality would seem to dictate.

As long as people think he's alive, then his cause isn't lost and the US is embarrissed (no matter what the current spin, not getting him was a black mark for Bush and co), and new followers can see how the "great man" avoids the toothless Americans.

You admit he's dead, even if it's natual causes, some will doubt, others will say "that's it', more will just forget about it.
The hardcore will continue, but a new front man as charismic would have to be found.

Remember, TALK of Martyrs is cheap, unless he died in some flashy way he's just another dead revolutionary to most peole.

Roland · July 12, 2002, 07:25

"Can you think of famous martys who inspired their followers long after death?"

Quickly ?

Jesus, Mani, that peruvian Indio leader from the 18th century whose name just dropped from my head (

), Jeanne d'Arc, Jan Hus

Roland · July 12, 2002, 07:35

Tupac Amaru. Holy crap, my brain....

Chris 62 · July 12, 2002, 07:39

How many are part of the modern world, Roland/

Jesus wasn't violent, and Jeanne D'arc inspired NOBODY after her death.

Jan Huss lived 6 centuries ago, Mani I never heard of.

See the common link?

None in the era of communications, all from the distant past, and of those you mentioned, how long did their movements survive them? (Jesus is ovious, but considering there is nothing but the bible that he ever lived, many argue he's just a story)

Chris 62 · July 12, 2002, 07:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Roland
Tupac Amaru. Holy crap, my brain....

A forgotten Inca leader is a famous martyr?

I can see why you fear for your brain.

Roland · July 12, 2002, 07:50

"How many are part of the modern world"

How many islamists are part of the modern world ? Those figures are, so to speak, from "their" world.

"Jesus wasn't violent"

That's not so sure. Even according to the bible, he engaged in vandalism.

"Jeanne D'arc inspired NOBODY after her death."

Played a role in the end of the 100 year war, became a national myth then. Why else would Charly have bothered to have her conviction repealed and gain her sainthood ?

"Jan Huss lived 6 centuries ago"

see above, Islamists' world.

"Mani I never heard of."

Never heard of Manichäism? Was killed by some fanatic zarathustrians in Persia.

"how long did their movements survive them?"

The question should rather be how "wirkmächtig" they were, but I have no clue how to translate that beautiful term into english.

Mani - Manichäism, Gnostics, about 300 years.

Jeanne d'Arc - became part of french nationalism.

Jan Hus - at least 100 years, invoked in the czech national revival in the 10th century.

"Tupac Amaru" - had a rebel organisation named him in th 1970s IIRC, about 200 years later.