Osama bin Laden is dead

[Roland]

"A forgotten Inca leader is a famous martyr?"

You never have that problem that a word you know just slips from memory ?

[Chris 62]

I think you see my point, in the modern era, with modern communications, the concept seems to be less effective.

I really can't see droves of people disrupting their lives after hearing ol OBL bought it, if they believed in his cause they would be with him already, only if he was killed, say, by some treachery or in some hidious fashion like slow torture could I see anybody getting worked up about that.

But then, I'm not a fanatic.

[moomin]

Originally posted by Roland
You managed to put an amazing amount of bollocks into a sentence that short.

And your argumentative skills leave me speechless.

There is Islam, Islamism and Islamist terrorism. Islam is no problem. Islamism is a cultural problem. And Islamist terrorism is a police and partly military problem.

Following a one-sided pro-Israel policy, blahing about crusades or invading Iraq because it's an old family feud addresses those problems how ?

Roland, ogrish troll or not, you can't really believe that pursuing the Iraq option is due to a family hang-up with the Bush's. Leave that kind of arguing to our Yank friends - they show amazing talent to display real intelligence when discussing their heads of state sometimes.

The US is looking into Iraq because it fears that soon, Saddam will hand over a nuke to Usama, or his like-minded brethren, and then a western city will go Poof!

This, given the fact that Saddam has shown no mercy handling even his own people and given Al-Quaida's proven track-record, is no idle fear either.

So it comes down to two choices:

1) Root them out.

2) Give in to their demands.

You are perfectly free to agrue for solution two, of course, but I don't particularly belive in it. There's a reason the police normally doesn't nagotiate with kidnappers and hi-jackers, and I see no reason to belive that appeasement works better on the political level than it does on the criminal.

Tell me, just how long are you willing to stretch in your ability to meet with these people? Stop condemning barbaric murders commited in the name of Islam in Israel, Algeria, the USA and countless other places? Look the other way when they kill all the Jews and destroy Israel? Accept that Austrian girls should wear chadoras out of "respect" for the Muslims in Austria? Accept sharia as your new constitution?

If you give in to extortion, there really is no end. The Western powers found this out in the years leading up to 1939. Some of us aren't all that eager to repeat the mistake now, when a bright new form of popularly supported fascism - the Islamic kind - sweeps the world.

[Roland]

"And your argumentative skills leave me speechless."

If only.

"Roland, ogrish troll or not, you can't really believe that pursuing the Iraq option is due to a family hang-up with the Bush's."

It's mostly ideology and economics driven.

"The US is looking into Iraq because it fears that soon, Saddam will hand over a nuke to Usama"

If that were the case, the US should be much more worried about Pakistan. And many are, apart from the rightwing lunatics. Saddam would risk a lot there, and that for a movement with he has no more in common than a common enemy. He's also bright enough to know that not only the west, but those very forces can turn against him.

"So it comes down to two choices:"

You forgot containment.

"Tell me, just how long are you willing to stretch in your ability to meet with these people?"

Who are "these people" ?

"Accept that Austrian girls should wear chadoras out of "respect" for the Muslims in Austria? Accept sharia as your new constitution?"

I think you're slightly paranoid about Islam.

"You are... sweeps the world."

You are mostly not argueing with me but with a strawman. If you have to address any point of mine, please fel free to do so.

[Faeelin]

Hmm. Looking at it from that perspective, I'm inclined to agree.

I doubt very much whether islamic terrorism is now over, but I think the whole myth he touted of the american paper tiger was pretty much blown away when the islamic regime he loved so much was overthrown within a month.

[DinoDoc]

Documentary says al Qaeda gunmen in northern Iraq

12.07.2002 9.30 am

Islamic guerrillas with al Qaeda links are fomenting unrest in Iraq's autonomous Kurdish region, whose support could be critical in Washington's efforts to oust Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, according to a television documentary being shown on Thursday.

The film, being aired in the United States on the Public Broadcasting System, portrays an intensifying campaign of attacks and assassination by the group, which it says has taken over nine villages since crossing into Iraq from Iran three years ago.

In the film, Dr Barham Salih, a top Kurdish politician who survived an assassination attempt in April, said 70-80 fighters are in the villages.

"These are non-Kurdish members of al Qaeda," says Salih, prime minister of the Kurdish Regional Government in an area run by the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, one of the two main factions that dominate in the rugged, mountainous region.

The film, to be aired on the Wide Angle weekly programme on PBS, was put together by British film-maker Gwynne Roberts, who has been reporting on the region for nearly 20 years.

The al Qaeda-linked group, which calls itself Ansar al Islam -- the Companions of Islam -- has engaged in several battles with the PUK and "is spreading terror throughout Kurdistan," Roberts said in the film.

An unidentified Iraqi intelligence agent captured by the PUK said in a interview in prison in Suleimaniyeh that he had been sent by Baghdad to make contact with a senior Iraqi secret service member who was operating with Ansar al Islam.

Advocates of US military action against Iraq are trying to establish evidence of ties between Saddam and Osama bin Laden's international al Qaeda movement, which is believed to have carried out the September 11 attacks on the united States.

President George W Bush, who has named Iraq a member of an "axis of evil" with Iran and North Korea for developing weapons of mass destruction and sponsoring terrorism, said this week he would use all available means to oust Saddam.

The documentary also quotes Iraqi defectors as alleging that top al Qaeda officials, including Osama bin Laden, visited Iraq during the 1990s and that the group's militants were trained to use chemical and biological weapons in Iraqi camps.

US officials who declined to be identified said despite a welter of clandestine information gleaned from the region they had not seen evidence of any visit by bin Laden to Iraq or of any major training programme for foreign militants.

They also have found no evidence linking Iraq with the September 11 attacks.

But they did say it was "quite plausible" that al Qaeda operatives were working with Ansar al Islam, although there was no definitive evidence.

Such reports, however, have contributed to a deep concern in Washington over Saddam's intentions and accusations that he is involved with international terrorism.

James Rubin, a former State Department spokesman now hosting the Wide Angle series, said the film made clear it was not presenting proof but that "this is a sufficiently compelling allegation that deserves more investigation."

If the link between Saddam and training foreigners to use weapons of mass destruction were proved, he told CNN, then it would highlight the danger "not so much that Saddam would use his weapons of mass destruction directly against us but that some day, some way they would fall into the wrong hands."

US analysts say there are sharply differing opinions inside the administration on how to move against Saddam and that if US military action were taken it would not be likely before next year.

In Roberts' film, an Iraqi defector who claimed to have worked at a secret chemical weapons factory and later became a colonel in Saddam's Fedayeen militia spoke of the training of foreigners at a camp called Unit 999, north of Baghdad.

"There was training in the use of biological and chemical weapons in camp 999. But they were not Iraqis doing it, they were foreigners," said the colonel, who spoke in an interview in Turkey and whose identity was protected.

The conclusions in Roberts' film match many of those of an extensive New Yorker article in April, which quoted Kurdish leaders as saying that Ansar al Islam was shielding al Qaeda members and doing so with the approval of Saddam's agents.

- REUTERS

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Chris 62
and Jeanne D'arc inspired NOBODY after her death.

How can you say that? She became a martyr for the French and inspired them to continue the struggle against English occupation of French territory. She may not have lasted as a martyr to this day, but she did for some time after her burning at the stake.

[Chris 62]

According to texts prepared by the Dauphin Charles.

How much imperical eveidence do we have of it?

The French were fighting to rid a hated foreigner from their land, how much motivation do you really think they needed?

What is the PROOF that the maid of Orleans inspired many after her execution?
Many doubted her during her lifetime.

My point stands, in the modern era martyrs seem to be going out of style.

[moomin]

Originally posted by Roland
"Roland, ogrish troll or not, you can't really believe that pursuing the Iraq option is due to a family hang-up with the Bush's."

It's mostly ideology and economics driven.

Ideology? You think Bush want's to set up a GOP voter booth among the marsh Arabs, or what?

Economy? You imagine the US will tap into Iraqi oil sources for free afterwards?

If that were the case, the US should be much more worried about Pakistan. And many are, apart from the rightwing lunatics.

Well, the Yanks seem to have Pakistan well in hands these days, don't they? The country is crawling with military advisors, CIA agents and US, eh, "support" funds. Pakistan is our best buddy these days, if you haven't noticed.

Saddam would risk a lot there, and that for a movement with he has no more in common than a common enemy. He's also bright enough to know that not only the west, but those very forces can turn against him.

Hoho. If Saddam is so smart, then he's perfectly well aware of the fact that his far down on this particular list. His time will come only when all the evil western devils and all the evil gulf state oppressors have fallen - I wouldn't hold my breath, and neither, I'm sure, does he.

>> "So it comes down to two choices:"
[QUOTE]
You forgot containment.
[QUOTE]

Ah, yes. Perhaps because I thought the notion of containment to be particularly rediculous in the face of nuclear terrorist. Containment, indeed!

>> "Tell me, just how long are you willing to stretch in your ability to meet with these people?"

Who are "these people" ?

The purveyors of this newfangled brand of Islamic fasicsm... Al-Quida, Hezbollah, Hamas and their ilk.

>> "Accept that Austrian girls should wear chadoras out of "respect" for the Muslims in Austria? Accept sharia as your new constitution?"


I think you're slightly paranoid about Islam.


I'm just pointing out that once you start giving in to bullies, they always demand more. Always. This is as true for Islamic bullies as for any other kind.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by moominparatrooper
I'm just pointing out that once you start giving in to bullies, they always demand more. Always. This is as true for Islamic bullies as for any other kind.

Stubborn refusal to acknowledge grievances of people who overwhelmingly believe such grievances exist is even dumber than "giving in."

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=55551

[Boris Godunov]

Fuel for the fire:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...ks_bin_laden_1

FBI Boss Thinks Bin Laden Dead
Wed Jul 17, 2:13 PM ET
By CHRISTOPHER NEWTON, Associated Press Writer

FBI ( news - web sites) counterterrorism chief Dale Watson said Wednesday he believes Osama bin Laden ( news - web sites) is dead — the first time a senior U.S. law enforcement official has publicly given an opinion on the al-Qaida leader's status.

Watson, speaking at a conference of law enforcement officials at a downtown hotel, quickly emphasized that he had no evidence that bin Laden was dead, but his comments suggest that the FBI has no intelligence that proves bin Laden is alive.

"Is (bin Laden) alive or is he dead?," Watson said. "I am not really sure of the answer....I personally think he is probably not with us anymore but I have no evidence to support that."

Watson also said that bin Laden's network of terrorist training camps has been dismantled, but "there is no question in my mind...we will be attacked again."

Watson, who rarely makes public appearances, is the top official for counterterrorism and counterintelligence in the FBI. He did not elaborate on his comments on bin Laden and rushed away from reporters after he spoke.

Since December, reports of bin Laden's whereabouts and well-being have been sporadic and from different sources.

Earlier this month, a London-based Arabic newspaper said Osama bin Laden was wounded in a U.S. bombing raid in Afghanistan ( news - web sites) last year but is in good health.

There was no way to verify the report in London-based Al-Quds Al-Arabi. U.S. officials say they have no evidence bin Laden was wounded in the U.S. bombing of al-Qaida hideouts in Tora Bora, Afghanistan, late last year, but acknowledge it is a possibility.

The newspaper's editor said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press that bin Laden underwent surgery to remove shrapnel from his left shoulder.

Atwan told the AP on Monday that sources close to the al-Qaida leader "confirmed to me that the man is in good health" after recovering from the wound.

While the Bush administration has said publicly it does not know whether bin Laden is alive or dead, some U.S. counterterrorism officials have privately acknowledged they believe he is alive.

On Saturday, the head of Germany's Federal Intelligence Service, was quoted in the Welt am Sonntag newspaper as saying bin Laden is alive and hiding along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border.

If the FBI says it, it must be true, right? Right?

[kring]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


I will.

WWII was started by the Japanese invasion of China in 1937.

Manchuria by Japan in 1931.

Back on Topic, I believe it is foolish to believe he is dead, without a body with DNA match. Based on reports, he is failry intelligent enough to realize that if he pops up, he draws targets like a magnet. I also beliece his immediate advisors would let the Arabic world know to encourage more anti-Western hatred.

A religious martyr lasts longer than a nonreligious one, esp. one in a major world religion. His death could be used to start a holy war. There are a number of martyrs that have modern day emphasis. Martin Luther King, Jr is the first that comes to mind. Feel free to do some searching using your fav search engine to find lots more. Also, consider the homicide bombers around the world. Modern day communications would make it easier to be a martyr with impact. Consider before, a martyr could die in an isolated community with few to know about him/her. Now, it would be on the 11 o'clock news. Besides a martyr wouldn't need to create long term impact, just immediate short-term, which may or may not lead to long-term.

http://www.al-islam.org/al-serat/Concept-Ezzati.htm

Here is an interesting link.

[Faeelin]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Germany wasn't humiliated after WWII, they were chastened. The revelations of the horrors of the Holocaust is what made the difference.

WWI wasn't Germany's fault, but it was impossible to deny that WWII was a war begun by Hitler.

WWI was largely france's fault, actually, but that's not the point.

Germans knew about the holocaust. They knew that when jews dissapear to the east and don't go back, they were being killed. They just didn't want to admit to it.

But on topic? Here's my personal belief on bin laden:
1) osama would not remain silent if alive. He would broadcast to show the world he has escaped the western cowards who were afraid to face him with their soldiers, and will strike again for islam.

2) At the same time, if he's dead, he would be a martyr for the cause. Maybe.

Thus, that leaves us with the possiblity that if he is alive, he's suffered a devestating injury. Possibly a crippling blow, or even brain damage.

It would explain a lot, but perhaps it's wishful thinking to have him end his days as a vegetable.

[germanos]

Originally posted by Chris 62
Can you think of famous martys who inspired their followers long after death?

I can't think of any off-hand, the truth is, we fear it more then the rteality would seem to dictate.

Mohammed

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Faeelin
WWI was largely france's fault, actually, but that's not the point.

I'd give Great Britain as much if not more of the blame.

Germans knew about the holocaust. They knew that when jews dissapear to the east and don't go back, they were being killed. They just didn't want to admit to it.

Certainly, but it was the revelation of the facts to the rest of the world that forced the German people to confront it head-on rather than continue with their heads in the sand and pretend it wasn't going on. Too bad the Nazi's willing helpers among Poles, Czechs, Ukranians, Austrians, Dutch, French, etc., didn't have to face the same.

Thus, that leaves us with the possiblity that if he is alive, he's suffered a devestating injury. Possibly a crippling blow, or even brain damage.

It would explain a lot, but perhaps it's wishful thinking to have him end his days as a vegetable.

Well, I personally lean to him being dead, but I don't think if he is dead that he died of a wound from an attack. He is undergoing kidney failure and needed periodic treatment with medical equipment far too sophisticated to be in the caves of Afghanistan. When they had Al Queda pinned in for those months, I bet he died from kidney failure.

Of course, it's possible he died and even his men don't know it. His body could be buried under tons of rubble and his close cohorts may have died with him. Considering the disruption of Al Queda communications, I can easily see his death not being known to even his followers. And if the did know, I don't think they would necessarily use the "martyr" card. People bring that up a lot, but in reality his being killed, directly or indirectly, by U.S. action couldn't be anything but a morale blow to his supporters.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I will.

WWII was started by the Japanese invasion of China in 1937.

Much earlier than that. The IJA invaded Manchuria in 1931, but they had been occupying Korea for much longer than that.