City from size 1 to size 20 in about 16 turns

[Starlifter]

@ La Fayette:

BTW, I've tried your super ironclad strategy (by including the Lighthouse, which I normally avoid), and it worked out nice in a couple games, including Smash's Fundy-only game. But in the latter, fundy gold and science was so torrid that most of those 25 or 30 7-move vets never fired a shot before they became non-Vet destroyers (Fundy science gives once advance per day in mid game, esp. with Lighthouse ). I'm still not a communism researcher or user, though (so I didn't follow all of it, here ).

About those Airbus spies.... I think they were in Australia, putting suger in the Japenese super jet gas tanks ...

[Xin Yu]

Originally posted by Starlifter
DOUBLE GROWTH
Note: If the food excess (E) was less than 5 and you have Pyr/Grn, you'll need 2 caravans/freight (not just one) to accomplish the Double Growth feat via Car/Frt on the next turn.

I don't think food excess less than 5 is the reason. You need either 1 or 2 or even 3 caravans to fill the food box (each will fill half of the box, so it depends on how much food you have accrued. When you have a deficit in food box you need 3 caravans, but this does not happen often since people take care of it immediately to avoid famine), then the next turn the city will grow 'natually' by one, and food left in the foodbox is either halved (with Pyramid/granary) or emptied, and the excess or deficit food of that turn is added/substracted. Since the added citizen can work on food square, the excess food does not necessarily be smaller than the previous turn. Now if the city still satisfy celebration growth condition (at least half happy and no unhappy, with at least one excess food), it can grow one more. Since the new citizen's working position is out of human control often the celebration growth condition is no longer valid after the first grow (but if the player can be careful enough to leave the most-food production square empty, the AI will surely put the new citizen there.)

Originally posted by Starlifter
Extra note: Double Growth can occur "Naturally" (With no Food Car/Frt help) if the city's excess food production exceeds (10*(S+2) - F).

Is this for double growth without celebration? I don't know about it. If celebration is involved then you only need one excess food plus a full food box (plus maintaining one excess food and happiness after growing by one). Even when celebration is not involved, the calculation should be based on next turn after population has grown by 1, not this turn.

[Starlifter]

I don't think food excess less than 5 is the reason.

Actually, it is. 5 comes from half of ten, and ten being the number of rows in a food box. When the 1st growth (due to filled food box) occurs, here is what happens:

Assume size 7. (S=7). The size of the food box is 10*(7+1)=80 units of food. Assuming Pyramids or Granary, if you fill the food box, the city size will increase, then the box will become half filled. You now have 5*(S+2), or 5*(7+2)=45 icons. Compute the excess food at this point, E. Assume E=3. 3 food icons are now added to the 45. You now have 48.

If the city cannot fulfill the Proper Celebration Growth Conditions, then the final result is a Size 8 city with 48 food.


If the city DOES fulfill the Proper Celebration Growth Conditions, then the city grows by yet another Citizen, to size 9. The contents of the food box do not change due to Celebration Growth. The result it a food box with a capacity of 10*(9+1), or 100 food. Half of this value is 50. But 48 is less than half the food box, or said another way, 48 is less than 50. If you add a single Food Car/Food Frt (FC/FF), then you get 50 more food: 48+50=98.

Now, 98 is equal to or greather than 100, so the city does not have a full food box. As long as the city remains at size 9 thru the next turn and no more FC/FF are added to it, then it cannot grow due to a full food box, and hence cannot Double Grow (add 2 citizens) next turn. You must to add a 2nd FC/FF to cause Double Growth in this example of food excess less than 5 (E<5).

And all this happened because the city did not have 5 or more excess food..... it means for 2 more food, you can save a food freight when achieving Double Growth ( in this example) on the next turn.

SUMMARY: You must have an excess of 5 or more food in order to use just one FC/FF to achieve Double Growth on the next turn. If the city produced 4 or less, you will need 2 (with pyramids/granary) TC/FF. If you are running a food deficit, you cannot have Double Growth. You need at least one grain icon. Hence you never need 3 or more FC/FF. Which leads to your next question.....

You need either 1 or 2 or even 3 caravans to fill the food box (each will fill half of the box, so it depends on how much food you have accrued. When you have a deficit in food box you need 3 caravans

Not true. You never need 3 FC/FF to cause Double Growth. You also do not need 3 FC/FF to cause regular single growth due to full food box. No food box contains more than 2*(1/2) capacity . Deficit has nothing to do with triggering growth due to Full Food Box. If the Box is full, the city will grow on the next turn (no matter what the deficit). Without Pyramids or Granary, a food deficit will then remove that new citizen, and the net gain will be nothing (7+1-1=7). If the deficit still exists next turn, and no FC/FF come in to help, the city will drop to 6. Add a FC/FF and the result will be ( 40-(deficit) ) in this case, and the size will remain at 7.

Now if the city still satisfy celebration growth condition (at least half happy and no unhappy, with at least one excess food), it can grow one more.

It must also have celebrated the prior turn, e.g., have the Celebration flag set.

Since the new citizen's working position is out of human control often the celebration growth condition is no longer valid after the first grow (but if the player can be careful enough to leave the most-food production square empty, the AI will surely put the new citizen there.)

Often, but not always. It will add an Elvis as the city get bigger, even with several open 4-food tiles. See the game example in my prior post. Of course, it stupidly will place a citizen on a tile without trade at times, and that may make the difference in Lux to keep the Celebration condition active.

Originally posted by Starlifter:
Extra note: Double Growth can occur "Naturally" (With no Food Car/Frt help) if the city's excess food production exceeds (10*(S+2) - F).

<http://64.246.32.51/b.gif>

Is this for double growth without celebration? I don't know about it. If celebration is involved then you only need one excess food plus a full food box (plus maintaining one excess food and happiness after growing by one). Even when celebration is not involved, the calculation should be based on next turn after population has grown by 1, not this turn.

Yes -- the only way to get Double Growth is via both Filled Food box (Algorithm Step #1)and Fulfilled Celebration condiiton (see Algorithm steps #3 & #4). What you left out (or overlooked) was my next sentence, which is "The 'natural' double growth will occur on the following turn (because of filled food box)."

The word "following" was italicized to emphasize this very point ... the growth due to the food box full (which was filled by exceeding (10*(S+2) - F), assuming no new added FC/FF ) will not occur until the next turn. But if you want that double growth next turn without any help from FC/FF, you need (10*(S+2) - F) .

But it is sort of complicated, like I warned at the top of the first post.


Hope that helps.... I'm willing to bet that many of you have had double growth (natural) without realizing it.

[Xin Yu]

OK. I understand what you meant now. You actually meant CONTINUOUS double growth, not just get one double growth. Sorry I misunderstood you.

[Starlifter]

Sorry I misunderstood you.

No worries.... these things are really hard to explain via words at times .

I'm sure other non-posting readers will be helped with all the detail, if they don't glaze over first!

Personally, I don't use FC/FFs to grow except on rare occasions, and don't force the Double Growth in my own games... but I don't mind it when I get that excess food for a natural Double in late game!

[Xin Yu]

Now the title for this thread can be changed to
"City from size 1 to size 20 in 8 turns"

[Starlifter]

Now the title for this thread can be changed to
"City from size 1 to size 20 in 8 turns"

I have never though to actually try a min-time to 20 before, but with pre-improved terrain (Farmland & specials not necessary if using Food Freight (FF) ):

Turn 01: Size 08: Found. Join to size 8. Rush Buy (RB) Aquaduct. Make 3 Trade Routes. Use Elvii as necessary.
Turn 02: Size 08: RB Mkt. Celebrate. 2 FFs.
Turn 03: Size 10: RB Sewer. 1 FF (if 5 or more excess food).
Turn 04: Size 12: RB Bank. 1 FF.
Turn 05: Size 14: RB Colosseum. 1 FF.
Turn 06: Size 16: RB Superhighways (or Supermarket). 1 FF.
Turn 07: Size 18: RB Supermarket (Or SH or harbor) 1 FF.
Turn 08: Size 20: RB Mass transit (or SE or whatever).

Wow, that's quick!

[War4ever]

ok so has this switched the problem of natural growth + growth via WLT*D's? or can double growth only come from food caravans? As i have stated before, i have had the food box full while in celebration and NOT received double growth, much to my annoyance....especially if the city cannot celebrate on the odd years which can happen....that double growth would make my celebrations continue, thus making my people alot happier as well.....they might even erect some sort of improvement in my throne room

Smash, Markus, Zylka and I all live here in Vancouver
The Red Sox logo that Smash was kind enough to size for my avatar stems from my die hard fascination and support of The Boston RedSox baseball team. Play any MP game with me and you will see that my cities are named after baseball stadiums with Fenway Park being my capital

[Starlifter]

ok so has this switched the problem of natural growth + growth via WLT*D's?

I'm not sure what the term problem is referring to, but to get a Double Growth, you must simply:

1. To fill the food box (you get one new citizen) -- it does not matter how you accomplish this (natural or FC/FF).

2. To fulfill all the Proper Celebration Growth Conditions (you get one new citizen):

a. Republic or Democracy government.
b. Celebration Flag set.
c. At least 50% Happy citizens.
d. Only Happy, Content, or Specialist citizens.
e. Necessary improvements to grow (Aqu/Sew).
f. At least one excess food available.


1 + 2 will give you two new citizens, aka Double Growth.


If you have a .SAV where this did not occur (but 1 & 2 were fulfilled), feel free to attach it & maybe we can see why not. There can always be another (as yet unknown) factor, but I've never seen an exception to this point .

[War4ever]

hm..i am sure i meet all of these specs....next time i play will save it and post...don't think i have ever seen a city grow by two points in one turn......

but if this is the case, it will have huge effects on MP games

[La Fayette]

war4ever
Thank you for explaining the Red socks.

Starlifter and Xin Yu
Thank you for explaining double growth. I used to consider it a bonus when it occured, but it is probably wise to include it in a strategy of very fast growing one or a few cities (for example right after the discovery of Sanitation).

Starlifter
Of course, when you have a fleet of super ironclads, you should hate researching Magnetism then Electricity. Let them do their job first .
I hate those nonvet destroyers so much that I often choose not to build Leo when I know I shall have widespread use of ironclads (easy to guess since Steam Engine comes right after Invention).

[Scouse Gits]

Like War I would have sworn that I had tried and failed to achieve this double growth -- more vigilance required.

Thanks a bunch guys - great work!

SG[1]

[War4ever]

i second Scouse Gits ...... the fact that i am still learning little tricks about this game continues to amaze me.....

You guys who do the math, deserve your own section in the GL me thinks.

La Fayette its Red Sox

[La Fayette]

war4ever
The word 'sox' isn't in my dictionary. 'Socks' is there, with the meaning that I learnt at school: 'chaussettes' = some kind of shorter stockings stopping right under one's knee. I supposed that 'sox' was modern American spelling for 'socks'. Is that right?

[Xin Yu]

I believe that sox is a modern word for socks. Otherwise people in Sioux city won't be unhappy for the name of its airport -- SUX.

[War4ever]

La Fayette

They were origionally the REd STOCKINGS

as you can see sometime very early in the 20th century, they changed their name. Yes Sox, does pertain to a pair of socks...as you can see from the avatar (two socks in front of a baseball)

[Straybow]

I suppose Red Stockings would have sounded "hip" when the team was founded a century ago.

Great. One more µmgmt strat to sück up my time.

[ramses II.]

I prefer the "Red Sioux" - theory.