View Poll Results: Which leaders should be changed?
Chancelor Bismarck (Germany) 24 7.59%
Queen Elisabeth (Britain) 18 5.70%
Shaka Zulu (Zululand) 1 0.32%
Chief Montezuma (Aztecs) 2 0.63%
Chief Hiavata (Iroquis) 7 2.22%
Emperor Xerxes (Persia) 1 0.32%
Alexander the Great (Greece) 3 0.95%
Queen Cleopatra (Egypt) 34 10.76%
King Hammurabi (Babylon) 1 0.32%
Saint Joan of Arc (France) 86 27.22%
Shogun Tokugawa (Japan) 3 0.95%
President Lincoln (USA) 34 10.76%
Emperor Ceasar (Roman Empire) 6 1.90%
Mahatma Ghandi (India) 17 5.38%
Chairman Mao (China) 17 5.38%
Czar Chaterina (Russia) 62 19.62%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 316. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Thread Tools
Old July 16, 2002, 12:09   #1
Sonic
Warlord
 
Local Time: 06:26
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Vilnius, Lithuania
Posts: 242
Which leaders you'd change
Which leaders do you think aren't worthy to be in game? (please check)
Sonic is offline  
Old July 16, 2002, 12:19   #2
Sonic
Warlord
 
Local Time: 06:26
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Vilnius, Lithuania
Posts: 242
I'd change Joan of Arc (to some middle ages France king, Joan of Arc option as leader is funny because she never ruled a state), President Lincoln (to George Washington or Franklin Delano Roosevelt) and Bismarck (to Adolf Hitler).
Sonic is offline  
Old July 16, 2002, 12:45   #3
vondrack
lifer
InterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamCivilization III PBEMCivilization IV PBEMPtWDG Legoland
Emperor
 
vondrack's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:26
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Praha, Czech Republic
Posts: 5,581
Quote:
Originally posted by Sonic
I'd change Joan of Arc (to some middle ages France king, Joan of Arc option as leader is funny because she never ruled a state), President Lincoln (to George Washington or Franklin Delano Roosevelt) and Bismarck (to Adolf Hitler).
Sorry, but proposing Hitler shall be taken as an offence by anyone knowing at least a sh*t about history and WW2. That figure has absolutely no right to appear in a game like Civ. How do you think German players would feel about the game? How could anyone play as Germans, not feeling uneasy? I mean to sound harsh.
vondrack is offline  
Old July 16, 2002, 12:51   #4
phunny_pharmer
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 04:26
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 90
Quote:
Bismarck (to Adolf Hitler)
Please don't be inflammatory...do you think Firaxis could get away with this?

Anyway, change Egypt, Russia, France, and possibly China. I think the most necessary changes are the first three.
__________________
They're coming to take me away, ha ha...
phunny_pharmer is offline  
Old July 16, 2002, 12:57   #5
zulu9812
King
 
zulu9812's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:26
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: of Scotland
Posts: 1,383
I changed Bismark to Hitler. Caterina to Stalin as well. Not to mention Joan of Arc to Napoleon.
__________________
Up the Irons!
Rogue CivIII FAQ!
Odysseus and the March of Time
I think holding hands can be more erotic than 'slamming it in the ass' - Pekka, thinking that he's messed up
zulu9812 is offline  
Old July 16, 2002, 12:59   #6
SpencerH
Civilization III PBEMCivilization III MultiplayerBtS Tri-League
Emperor
 
SpencerH's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:26
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Back in BAMA full time.
Posts: 4,502
Bismarck-> Frederick the Great
Cleopatra-> Almost any of the early Pharoes would be better
Lincoln-> Washington
Ghandi-> A number of choices
Mao-> Qin Shi Huang Di
__________________
We need seperate human-only games for MP/PBEM that dont include the over-simplifications required to have a good AI
If any man be thirsty, let him come unto me and drink. Vampire 7:37
Just one old soldiers opinion. E Tenebris Lux. Pax quaeritur bello.

Last edited by SpencerH; July 17, 2002 at 14:51.
SpencerH is offline  
Old July 16, 2002, 13:18   #7
frostycreep
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 04:26
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Devon, England
Posts: 75
Id rather have Henry VIII as English king, instead of that virgin queen.
frostycreep is offline  
Old July 16, 2002, 13:20   #8
frostycreep
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 04:26
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Devon, England
Posts: 75
I personally would also like to go against Hitler and really kick his arse! But realistically it shouldnt be allowed. The man was just too evil!
frostycreep is offline  
Old July 16, 2002, 13:32   #9
Carver
Prince
 
Carver's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:26
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: reprocessing plutonium, Yongbyon, NK
Posts: 560
Joan d'Ark has to be the oddest choice by the developers. She was more of a nationalist icon than anything else. She wasn't a political leader, an economic leader or a true military leader. Joan was there at the battles, but did she really know what she was doing?
Carver is offline  
Old July 16, 2002, 13:47   #10
Sonic
Warlord
 
Local Time: 06:26
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Vilnius, Lithuania
Posts: 242
So Hitler was bad and Mao wasn't? Stalin for example killed more people than Hitler and even if people calls him bad, there wouldn't have been such reaction here if I named him (however, I think Catherine is better choice than Stalin, because Catherine also expanded Empire and Stalin didn't created his ideology - Lenin/Marx did. Lenin maybe would be a good choice but he didn't expanded Union as much as Stalin and Catherine did). Hitler was bad, but there were much worse, and after all Hitler was a strong leader. People thinks he was the worst man only because all the prejustice everyone is given at school etc. And this is only because he lost the war (look at quoute at my signature). Stalin was worse. And beyond Truman order also many civilians were killed. Yes, putting Hitler wouldn't help sell the game and he was bad, but he wasn't the worst and he was strong leader. Even if Hitler would have killed 100 times more people than he did, he still should been here (and then he should be here even more). Leaders could be good or bad, but if the does impact for nation/world, then they are strong leadres. And Hitler did that impact.
Sonic is offline  
Old July 16, 2002, 13:53   #11
Hagbart
InterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamC3C IDG: Apolyton Team
Prince
 
Hagbart's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:26
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 835
Quote:
Originally posted by zulu9812
I changed Bismark to Hitler. Caterina to Stalin as well. Not to mention Joan of Arc to Napoleon.
You must have a very negative view of the world.
__________________
Try my Lord of the Rings MAP out: Lands of Middle Earth v2 NEWS: Now It's a flat map, optimized for Conquests

The new iPod nano: nano
Hagbart is offline  
Old July 16, 2002, 14:20   #12
monkspider
Civilization IV: MultiplayerCivilization IV CreatorsGalCiv Apolyton Empire
King
 
monkspider's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:26
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Wichita
Posts: 1,352
I would definitely change Joan to Napoleon, making her the French leader always bugged the heck out of me. I would also advise changing Cleo to Ramses II and Catherine to good ol' Vlad Lenin.
__________________
http://monkspider.blogspot.com/
monkspider is offline  
Old July 16, 2002, 14:30   #13
Adagio
staff
Spore
Deity
 
Adagio's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:26
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 11,112
Chancelor Bismarck => I have no clue who he is
Queen Elisabeth => She's walking death...and have no clue who she is...
Czar Chaterina => Got no idea who she is

The rest are perfect, nobody fits in more perfect than those who are there now...
__________________
This space is empty... or is it?
Adagio is offline  
Old July 16, 2002, 14:56   #14
Incan_Warrior
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 22:26
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Dallas
Posts: 58
I'm going to have to back Sonic up on his choices - they aren't necessarily mine, but if you think of the way Civilization is designed, Hitler & Stalin are not inappropriate choices. Many of us play Civilization as warmongerers, literally killing the population of the other civs. Even those that aren't all that into war want to dominate the rest of the civ-world. Strategies can involve espionage and culture bombing, neither of which are pleasant for the involved civilizations.

Civ 3 isn't about peace and harmony. If anyone is going to get up-in-arms over a leader choice, we should be really pissed off about Ghandi as a selection. He lived a life of peace, and I quote him with this: "Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man." And yet Firaxis has the gall to place his visage in a game that revolves around WAR. Anyone that wishes to play their political-correctness card should start here.

With the exception of Ghandi, I believe EVERY other leader in the game has either killed a man with his/her own hands OR authorized an army to do so. It is true, Hitler was devious, overzealous and fundamentally evil. But the same could be said for Montezuma, a man who daily sacrificed his own people for religious reasons. Hitler's 'Aryan Nation' was effectively a religion in itself.

My point is that Sonic's propositions are not out of line. You can't play a game of Civilization without seeing death and destruction, even if they are cartoon-ified. Take off your rose-colored glasses and see the game for what it is. Hitler, if anything, would be the MOST appropriate leader for this game.
Incan_Warrior is offline  
Old July 16, 2002, 14:58   #15
The Templar
Prince
 
The Templar's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:26
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: People's Republic of the East Village
Posts: 603
I'd go with Lenin over Cathrine, and Napoleon over Joan of Arc.

While Hitler would be fun to play against, I suppose Hitler IS, after all, as offensive to Germans as Reagan is to Americans. Then again, a WWII scenario featuring Hitler and a cold war scenario featuring Reagan would both be fun.
__________________
- "A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it still ain't a part number." - Ron Reynolds
- I went to Zanarkand, and all I got was this lousy aeon!
- "... over 10 members raised complaints about you... and jerk was one of the nicer things they called you" - Ming
The Templar is offline  
Old July 16, 2002, 15:08   #16
August Borms
Prince
 
August Borms's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:26
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Antwerpen
Posts: 398
I would change Joan of Arc to Napoleon
And maybe Catharina to Lenin or Stalin

Bismarck is fine for Germany, and I think Hitler would have been acceptable too.
__________________
In een hoerekotje aan den overkant emmekik mijn bloem verloren,
In een hoerekotje aan den overkant bennekik mijn bloemeke kwijt
August Borms is offline  
Old July 16, 2002, 15:39   #17
Wise Ass
Call to Power II Democracy GameCall to Power II MultiplayerCivilization III MultiplayerCall to Power Democracy GameCivilization IV CreatorsC4DG Team BananaC4BtSDG Team Banana
Prince
 
Local Time: 23:26
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Your Mom's House... Why?
Posts: 481
I would change Cathrine... I can't stand seeing her in diplomatic negotiations!
__________________
GC Magazine|Gamecatcher
Wise Ass is offline  
Old July 16, 2002, 16:25   #18
Thrawn05
King
 
Local Time: 23:26
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Constantly giggling as I type my posts.
Posts: 1,735
Cleopatra -> Ramses (either I or II)
Joan D'Arc -> Napoleon
Lincoln -> Truman

As for Rome, Cæsar was never the leader of Rome. So in my Latin Mod (please download and try ), I changed it from Cæsar to Augustus, the first and longest lasting emperor. I also changed the title from Emperor to Cæsar, since that was all the emperor's formal title.
__________________
I drink to one other, and may that other be he, to drink to another, and may that other be me!
Thrawn05 is offline  
Old July 16, 2002, 16:42   #19
monkspider
Civilization IV: MultiplayerCivilization IV CreatorsGalCiv Apolyton Empire
King
 
monkspider's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:26
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Wichita
Posts: 1,352
Julius Caesar served as dictator for a few years before he was assasinated Thrawn.
__________________
http://monkspider.blogspot.com/
monkspider is offline  
Old July 16, 2002, 16:59   #20
vondrack
lifer
InterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamCivilization III PBEMCivilization IV PBEMPtWDG Legoland
Emperor
 
vondrack's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:26
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Praha, Czech Republic
Posts: 5,581
Quote:
Originally posted by Sonic
So Hitler was bad and Mao wasn't? Stalin for example killed more people than Hitler and even if people calls him bad, there wouldn't have been such reaction here if I named him.
I was not advocating the choice of Mao - actually that is also a rather disturbing one, but I can't recall any Chinese I might want to replace him with... Most Western people know very little about great Chinese leaders.

I would oppose Stalin as fiercely as I oppose Hitler.

Quote:
Originally posted by Sonic
Hitler was bad, but there were much worse, and after all Hitler was a strong leader. People thinks he was the worst man only because all the prejustice everyone is given at school etc.
Sorry, have to disagree strongly. Only after reading a lot about WW2 I came to understand how much evil Hitler was. He was a charismatic leader, that is correct. But it was mostly because of his megalomaniac, ill-thought military and political decisions that made Germany lose the war eventually.

Quote:
Originally posted by Sonic
And this is only because he lost the war (look at quoute at my signature). Stalin was worse. And beyond Truman order also many civilians were killed.
Yep, it is true that most leaders do cause people die in one way or another. But NONE of the leaders currently featured in Civ3 could stand up against the pure evil Hitler was. The level of destruction he caused was simply times bigger than for the rest of the leaders combined. The fact that Stalin was worse does not qualify Hitler for a Civ3 leader any better.

Quote:
Originally posted by Sonic
Yes, putting Hitler wouldn't help sell the game and he was bad, but he wasn't the worst and he was strong leader. Even if Hitler would have killed 100 times more people than he did, he still should been here (and then he should be here even more). Leaders could be good or bad, but if the does impact for nation/world, then they are strong leadres. And Hitler did that impact.
It is rather difficult for me to argue against such a cynical approach. It seems that further discussion on this topic would be useless, as we may hardly find a common ground. Do you really think that the more people someone causes to die, the more he deserves to be featured in Civ3?

I am not trying to be politically correct. After getting involved in the localization of several multimedia titles about WW2, learning a lot about WW2 in the process, I feel very strongly about this issue. Crediting Hitler for anything but unbelievable destruction brought to the world is something I will always fiercely oppose.
vondrack is offline  
Old July 16, 2002, 17:07   #21
vondrack
lifer
InterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamCivilization III PBEMCivilization IV PBEMPtWDG Legoland
Emperor
 
vondrack's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:26
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Praha, Czech Republic
Posts: 5,581
male/female leaders
One thing I would love to see is a male/female leader for every nation. I know it would be difficult for many civs, but it is rather weird when the game asks for my gender/title and after learning it, happily leaves Catherine's picture in place...

Something like:

Joan - Napoleon
Elizabeth - Henry VIII
Cleo - Ramses

OK, I know it is nonsense... I just feel uneasy seeing myself as that ugly woman...

Maybe making the leader animation a more tailorable feature with the possibility of creating one's own one or using a still picture?
vondrack is offline  
Old July 16, 2002, 17:26   #22
Incan_Warrior
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 22:26
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Dallas
Posts: 58
Vondrack -

Please check out my earlier post. I still think those opposing Hitler/Stalin/Napoleon are approaching the topic from the wrong angle. Civilization is not a game for peace-lovers, and, to be honest, many many many players use strategies that resemble the strategies Hitler implemented during WW2: He made his own population suffer, terrorized/enslaved/killed anyone that stood in his way and made no excuses for it. How many times have you, while playing Civ 3, broken a peace treaty, killed off your own population to rush a city improvement, razed a city, destroyed an entire civilization? It isn't a stretch to say that playing Civ 3 is vicariously carrying out the very plans Hitler dreamed of. THUS, you and others shouldn't be disgusted by a proposition that Hitler be a leader, you should instead be disgusted when real-life peaceful leaders, like Ghandi, are thrust into a game that revolves around war.
Incan_Warrior is offline  
Old July 16, 2002, 17:32   #23
monkspider
Civilization IV: MultiplayerCivilization IV CreatorsGalCiv Apolyton Empire
King
 
monkspider's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:26
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Wichita
Posts: 1,352
I can't believe so many posters don't want to see Bismarck in the game!
I thought he was the perfect choice for Germany. I would take him over Fredrick the Great any day.
__________________
http://monkspider.blogspot.com/
monkspider is offline  
Old July 16, 2002, 17:35   #24
Sonic
Warlord
 
Local Time: 06:26
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Vilnius, Lithuania
Posts: 242
I don't think the more people person kills the more better candidate for civ3 he is, but I think the more impact on history someone does the better candidate for civ3 he is.
Sonic is offline  
Old July 16, 2002, 17:45   #25
Signa
Warlord
 
Signa's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:26
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: IA, USA
Posts: 156
Chancelor Bismarck => created German nation, what more is needed?
Queen Elizabeth => ruled forever, beat Spainish, set the foundation for the UK.
Shaka Zulu => The only Zulu leader that the general gamers might re-cognize.
Chief Montezuma => Lost to Spainish, the only well-known Aztec leader.
Chief Hiawatha => Don't know much about the Iroquois, but he's in the poem.
Emperor Xerxes => The Persians have Cyrus and Darius (both successful) but the screw-up gets the nod?
King Alexander III (the Great) => Father conquers the Hellas, he conquers Persia... it works
Queen Cleopatra => She defended her nation to the death in the face of overwhelming Roman force.
King Hammurabi => You could flip a coin between him and Nebucenzzer II (i mispelled that...).
Saint Jeanne d'Arc => Didn't even lead France, its obvious that Napolean should be here.
Shogun Tokugawa => Unified feudal Japan and created its greatest city (modern) in Tokyo.
President Lincoln => He's fine, for Washington fits as a military leader but FDR could be very good too...
Emperor Caesar => Conquers Gaul and Britianna, and dominates Roman politics for the rest of its history.
Mahatma Ghandi => As before I know very little of Indian history, but he is re-cognizable.
Chairman Mao => His guy MUST go. He out-murdered Hitler and Stalin combined and HE get it!
Czar Catherine II => Peter the Great would be better due to he did more to modernize Russian than her.

Hum... so i get 2 must changes and 4 more that could be changed all and all.
__________________
"War does not determine who is right, it determines who is left."
Signa is offline  
Old July 16, 2002, 17:49   #26
Adagio
staff
Spore
Deity
 
Adagio's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:26
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 11,112
Quote:
Originally posted by monkspider
I can't believe so many posters don't want to see Bismarck in the game!
I thought he was the perfect choice for Germany. I would take him over Fredrick the Great any day.
And I can't believe that many don't want the georgeus Joan d' Arc to be the leader of France...She's as much of a leader as Napoleon, but she got a great bonus...she's a she...a damn good looking she in fact...
__________________
This space is empty... or is it?
Adagio is offline  
Old July 16, 2002, 17:56   #27
Incan_Warrior
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 22:26
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Dallas
Posts: 58
ADG - are you talking about in real life, or in Civ 3? I wonder if my Joan looks like everyone elses - because mine is NOT cute. She looks like a Chubby Gerber baby....BOY. Not appealing at all.
Incan_Warrior is offline  
Old July 16, 2002, 18:02   #28
monkspider
Civilization IV: MultiplayerCivilization IV CreatorsGalCiv Apolyton Empire
King
 
monkspider's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:26
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Wichita
Posts: 1,352
I don't want to start a whole Pro Mao vs. Anti-Mao debate, but I will just say this. I think Mao is largely misunderstood in western thought. He prevented China from falling once again to western Imperialism, and put China on the path to being a great world power in the latter part of the twentieth century. I am not a big fan of Mao by any means, and some of his programs such as the Cultural revolution were admittedly brutal, but I think a fair case can be made that he did more for China than any other Chinese leader, and certainly, at least more than any other Chinese leader that would be remotely famillar to westerners.

Plus you have to admit his big fluffy hat rocks.
__________________
http://monkspider.blogspot.com/
monkspider is offline  
Old July 16, 2002, 18:23   #29
Carver
Prince
 
Carver's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:26
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: reprocessing plutonium, Yongbyon, NK
Posts: 560
Quote:
Originally posted by The Templar
While Hitler would be fun to play against, I suppose Hitler IS, after all, as offensive to Germans as Reagan is to Americans. Then again, a WWII scenario featuring Hitler and a cold war scenario featuring Reagan would both be fun.
Now you've got me anticipating PTW regicide games with Reagan as the American leader. I would have to keep reloading the autosave so I could kill him over and over.
Carver is offline  
Old July 16, 2002, 18:48   #30
Cypselus
Settler
 
Local Time: 04:26
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 11
Joan of Arc is ridiculous, and so is Cleopatra, who wasn't even Egyptian, but I suppose they didn't want a wholly male cast of leaders. I would suggest Louis XIV or Napoleon in Joan's place, and Ramses or Akhenaten in Cleopatra's place. George Washington seems like a better American leader. I have no particular quarrel with any of the other choices.
Cypselus is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 00:26.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team