US Congress lobbies for the return of the marbles of Parthenon to Greece.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Chris 62
The Limeys will never do it, if they do, then Europe's musems will be wide open to millions of claims for all the stuff they looted over the centuries.

And yet, this noble quest attracts more and more supporters.

US Resolutions For The Return Of The Parthenon Marbles (7/16/02)
Two resolutions tabled recently in the US Senate and the US House of Representatives call on the British government to enter negotiations with Greece as soon as possible to facilitate the return of the Parthenon Marbles before the 2004 Athens Olympic Games.

In the two resolutions, the Parthenon is characterized as the leading expression of the ancient Greek art and the main symbol of the Greek cultural heritage, copies of which can be found in many public buildings, including the Lincoln Memorial.

In the resolutions, the Parthenon is characterized as an ecumenical symbol of civilization, democracy and freedom making the return of the Parthenon Marbles an issue that concerns the whole world and not only Greece.

[MOBIUS]

You're lucky the Marbles still exist...

Oh wait, you can thank us!

[Bereta_Eder]

Quite the opposite, if you care to see the facts. Half of the marbles which you stolen have been damaged by you twice. The other half that remain in their rightfull place are unblemished.

[Chris 62]

How many Euros?

Look at their attitude.

[Bereta_Eder]

We will not give money to "buy" what was stolen from us in an act of barbarism that not even the goths or the turks were able to degenerate to

The marbles of Parthenon will return with the apologies of the British government for damaging them.

Time, time, time is on my side

[Bereta_Eder]

and to be fair...

In April 1996, a program on Britain's Channel 4 asked viewers whether the Parthenon Marbles should be returned. Of 99,340 people who took part in the poll, 92.5 percent voted in favor of the proposal.

[The Pioneer]

Originally posted by paiktis22
Pioneer,

hmmm, let's see... you have said that Thessaloniki is the most beautiful city in the world... you are not a fan of Panathinaikos.... could you be Aris or PAOK?

(in another thread I mentioned that Galis should be voted thebest athlete of the century) although sports don't interest me that much?! Sorry for threadjacking here.

[Shi Huangdi]

Britain.

Paitkis sure is an ungrateful one. The British helped support Greece in their war of independence, and again was a key player in the war against Greece's occupiers in WWII. But instead of giving Britain proper thanks as they should, they whine and moan about a few dumb marbles. But then, I guess that is to be expected when Greece is full of right-wing nationalists like Paitkis.


The Marbles shall remain in Britain FOREVER.

[MarkG]

we showed our gratitude to the British people by sending our royals to them. Now they have more to read mags about

if it's "a few dumb marbles" i'm sure the British goverment wouldnt mind...

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Paitkis sure is an ungrateful one. The British helped support Greece in their war of independence

Actually at first they dismissed the Greek revolution as a "devilish ploy". Later on they acknowledged Greek independence since Greeks were winning and it served their interests.

and again was a key player in the war against Greece's occupiers in WWII.

And I thought it was also the other way around.

Especially since Churchill said in 1941:

"From this point on, we will not say that Greeks fight like heroes, but that heroes fight like the Greeks".

meanwhile your beloved Turkey remained with its head firmly burried in the sand during WW2. I wonder why.

But instead of giving Britain proper thanks as they should, they whine and moan about a few dumb marbles.

Your lack of culture shows you for what you truely are.

But then, I guess that is to be expected when Greece is full of right-wing nationalists like Paitkis.

You must have been looking at the mirror all the time lately.

The Marbles shall remain in Britain FOREVER.

Of course. And all americans will soon start wearing turbans. You are funny in your anti-Greek delirium turk american. I hope you get over it soon. Either way, you'll always find people like me against you

[Starchild]

You managed to miss the point of my post completely Pak I know the UK-US "relationship" is a one sided affair with overtones of S/M. I've noted how the UK's support has been rewarded with steel tariffs, farm protection, and having our opinion on the World Court brushed aside.

Take the marbles, keep the marbles, whatever. I don't know why the British Museum just doesn't make a damn copy of them and give the originals back to Greece. We've got 3D laser scanners, we've got precision equipment and there's tons of marble in the world. Hell, they do it for dinosaur bones, so why not cultural artifacts?

Barring that, we could imprint "Made in Greece" on the bottom of the Marbles.

Daughter of Jove! In Britain's injured name,
A true-born Briton may the deed disclaim.
Frown not on England; England owns him not:
Athena, no! thy plunderer was a Scot.

I'm only 1/16th Scottish, so don't blame me for the marbles. Take it up with the Scottish Parliament.

[Bereta_Eder]

Not to say that Britain should be particularly thankful to people like you, Shi, who openly advocate funding of the IRA.

You are VERY confused...

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Starchild
You managed to miss the point of my post completely Pak

I didnt miss it. I just thought it was funny that unlimited support for war on terrorism should translate also in the marbles of Parthenon

Take the marbles, keep the marbles, whatever. I don't know why the British Museum just doesn't make a damn copy of them and give the originals back to Greece.

I provided the reasons why in previous posts

Barring that, we could imprint "Made in Greece" on the bottom of the Marbles.

No, thank you, you did enough damage already

I'm only 1/16th Scottish, so don't blame me for the marbles. Take it up with the Scottish Parliament.

Hey, take it up with Lord Byron yourself

[Shi Huangdi]

"Actually at first they dismissed the Greek revolution as a "devilish ploy". Later on they acknowledged Greek independence since Greeks were winning and it served their interests."

Britain intervened because of liberal sentiments. British intervention saved your country! Although I am sure had the Great Powers really understood how bad the Greek people are they would have intervened on the Ottoman side and let you people suffer.

"And I thought it was also the other way around."

And you were dead wrong. The combined efforts of the USA, UK, and USSR stopped fascist power in Europe. Heck, Britain has done so much for Greece you should have a "We love Britain!" day where you all salute the British flag and sing "God save the Queen!"

But, no, you are so incredibly right-wing you probably thought it was bad that the fascists lost in WWII.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Britain intervened because of liberal sentiments.

Britain did not intervened untill Greeks had already declaired their intependence and the Turks were beaten. It was in Britain's best interest to support the Greeks against the Ottoman empire.

British intervention saved your country!

hardly.

Although I am sure had the Great Powers really understood how bad the Greek people are they would have intervened on the Ottoman side and let you people suffer.

Well, then we would have had to fight them too, then

Although at the beggining we indeed did fight them. Every revolution was automatically deemed as "devilish" after Napoleon. The same with the Greek revolution.

And you were dead wrong. The combined efforts of the USA, UK, and USSR stopped fascist power in Europe.

And Greece defeating Italy and forcing Germany to send myriads of troops permitted the Russians to catch the Nazis in the winter. Your point?

Turkey didnt even fight.

BTW, memorize that churchill quote.

Heck, Britain has done so much for Greece you should have a "We love Britain!" day where you all salute the British flag and sing "God save the Queen!"

How naive you are

But, no, you are so incredibly right-wing you probably thought it was bad that the fascists lost in WWII.

My family has lost people to the nazis. It is not even worth replying to that

Your betrayl of democracy in the most grottesque way in militarey regime Turkey says all about your dedication to freedom anyway.

You're so anti-Greek it's actually amuzing to toy with you.

[Bereta_Eder]

And I wonder how much money you have given to the IRA... since you said you support it.

[Faeelin]

Hmm. According to this boo k on the Ottomans, "the hellenic message was spread by the Greek merchant communities through the capitals of Western Europe and Russia... rich expatriates, especially in Russia, came foward with substantial contributions, while young men, not only fom Europe but from America, volunteered, often in defiance of their own governments, to fight for the Greek cause... The greek revolution was "a war got up by poets and stock-jobbers for the benefit of Russia."

At first, Paik, you're right then. There was no British intervention at this point but.

"Residh Pasha embarked on a long siege of Athens, whose acropolis, folllowing an aborted attempt by Lord Cochrane to relieve it, fell to the Turks oin June, 1827. This... seemed to signal the end of the War of Independence."

So we have a man with the name of a high british lord ( in addition to lord bryon) leading a greek military force.

However...

"But it was not the end. For the time had come at last, after six years of bloodshed, for the powers of Europe to intervene... The Russians had proved msot active in their pressure against the Turks. The Austrians... favoured th supression of the rebels [and] the British and French feared the consequences of a new Russo-Turkish war. French and British naval forces in the Mediterranean saw those of the Greeks as an insurance against piracy."

Okay, I'll sum up what happens next. The Russians and Brits agree that the Greeks deserve autonomy, but the Ottoman sultan refuses. Here's what happens (in the bay of Navarino)

"an Egyptian ship fired on an open boat carrying the delegates. The French flagship at once retaliated with rifle fire, and a major naval engagement sinveitably followed. In this Ibrahim's fleet was all but annihilated. I twas the worst naval disaster to befall the Empire since Lepanto.
....

"The English secured an undertaking from Mehmed Ali to withdraw Ibrahim's forces"

Then the Russians invade (surprise) and that war ends in 1830, and finally...


"When it came to Greece, from which the Turkish forces had now been withdrawn, the Sultan was obliged to accept the terms... of the Treaty of London... this meant the acceptance of a Greek state, no longer subject to his sovereignty but entirely independent."

So, we have:
British support, after the victory by the Ottomans seemed assured, for Greek self-recognition

The British navy smashing the Ottoman navy up, with the help of the French and Russians.

And the Treaty of London, which finally assured Greek independence. Although to bbe fair, Greece didn't get all it wanted, as the Europeans didn't want to see Russia strengthened by the empire's total collapse.

Edit: Information provided by The Ottoman Centuries: The Rise and Fall of the Turkish Empire, by Lord Kinross.

[Bereta_Eder]

You are just verifying everything I said.

BTW the battle of Navarino, in which the Russians were the ones who did most of the work apart from the Greek ships, totally crushed the turkish fleet.

[Bereta_Eder]

Plus there was a big Pro-Greek feeling in most of western Europe. France, Britain, even Russia and Germany and the US at that time.

There are many men of the arts which actually took arms together with the Greeks against the Turks. Men who died with Greeks in the battle for freedom.

But this doesnt change that real politik reigned supreme and philellinism didnt actually replaced the national interests of each of the big powers.

[Alex]

Yes, I know that many things that can be found in museums all over the world were stolen, and the Parthenon marbles are no exception to that rule. That is why I say it is a matter of respect and decency: "here, take these marbles back, we are truly sorry for what happened and we recognize your right to own these pieces."

But then it would mean two things: that the British would be admitting that they stole the marbles and that their collection would be claimed by 47 different countries.

[The Pioneer]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
"Actually at first they dismissed the Greek revolution as a "devilish ploy". Later on they acknowledged Greek independence since Greeks were winning and it served their interests."

Britain intervened because of liberal sentiments. British intervention saved your country! Although I am sure had the Great Powers really understood how bad the Greek people are they would have intervened on the Ottoman side and let you people suffer.

"And I thought it was also the other way around."

And you were dead wrong. The combined efforts of the USA, UK, and USSR stopped fascist power in Europe. Heck, Britain has done so much for Greece you should have a "We love Britain!" day where you all salute the British flag and sing "God save the Queen!"

But, no, you are so incredibly right-wing you probably thought it was bad that the fascists lost in WWII.

People should learn their history before they post.

Epsecially people that really know crap about world history and geography!

[Bereta_Eder]

In short, the "Big Powers" intervened after 6 years of Greek fighting when the Turks where chased away from Greece.

The recognision of the Greek independence was the recognision of a fait accompli, something which was already done. In the beggining all the Big powers characterized Greek revolution as "a devilish act"

Also later on, bare in mind that the "Big Powers" curtailed Greek expansion twice towards the Greeks that were still living under Ottoman rule in Asia Minor.

It is all about interests.

Perhaps the most pure expression of love towards Greece were the Phillelines, people from other countries than Greece, who participated in the revolution and actually gave their own life along Greeks.

These were secluded persons, privates though. Which are always remembered and honoured.

And maybe even most importantly they were men of the letters.

A lesson for all the "couch intellectuals" out there

[Faeelin]

Originally posted by paiktis22


Britain did not intervened untill Greeks had already declaired their intependence and the Turks were beaten. It was in Britain's best interest to support the Greeks against the Ottoman empire.

I think we disproved that, didn't we? What with Athens in Ottoman hands, the Greeks were viewed by outside powers as over

Although at the beggining we indeed did fight them. Every revolution was automatically deemed as "devilish" after Napoleon. The same with the Greek revolution.

Actually, the British had had supported from Europe since almost immediately after the end of the napoleonic wars. And, BTW, the revolution of Greece didn't really start until 1821.

And Greece defeating Italy and forcing Germany to send myriads of troops permitted the Russians to catch the Nazis in the winter. Your point?

The nazis were, correct, bogged down in mud in the february and even march of '42. Had they invaded Russia at that point, why would the outcome have been different in '41?

Turkey didnt even fight.

Only because they couldn't figure out which side to roll over for.

Your betrayl of democracy in the most grottesque way in militarey regime Turkey says all about your dedication to freedom anyway.

As opposed, to, say, severing diplomatic relations with nondemocracies?

Shall I point out the fact that European nations (France, for instance) have had dealing with Saddam in weapons since the sanctions?

I'm not going to, since that's not the point at hand.

You're so anti-Greek it's actually amuzing to toy with you.

Are modern greeks descended from ancient greeks? I thought modern ones were slavs.

[Bereta_Eder]

Faeelin, you thought wrong.

I'm sorry but these questions have been answered adequately in other threads.

As for your prior statements I direct you to the previous posts.

[Faeelin]

No, you see, you're failing to listen to the fact that the western powers intervened after the ottoman general had taken Athens.

Yes, it was for realpolitik, but if you're saying that it was fait accompli when the rebel capital was in enemy hands, you're very, very, mistaken.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Faeelin
The nazis were, correct, bogged down in mud in the february and even march of '42. Had they invaded Russia at that point, why would the outcome have been different in '41?

The only one not answered is this.

It would have been different because the nazis would have had to fight the Russians in the harsh winter.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Faeelin
No, you see, you're failing to listen to the fact that the western powers intervened after the ottoman general had taken Athens.

Yes, it was for realpolitik, but if you're saying that it was fait accompli when the rebel capital was in enemy hands, you're very, very, mistaken.

I would like to see a link for that statement.

Waiting for that, following your reasoning, you are very wrong. With Greece in Greek hands, the "capital" would be conquered in no time, don't you think so?


You also failed to notice that the Greek capital at that time was nayplio in the Peloponese. Greeks were pushing upwards towards Central and Northern Greece.

[Bereta_Eder]

Also, about WW2, I think that no other "small" country fought as succesfully as Greece did against two big European countries. This is something that is taken for granted now, but it bears repeating.

[Inverse Icarus]

yea. sure. you can have the marbles. go lobbyists.

and stuff.

[Bereta_Eder]

BTW might I ask what is your interest in Greece? Together with Shi you are the most anti-Greek (yes both modern Greeks and their ancestors the ancient Greeks ) posters here.

Just curious.