1.29f PATCH README - Page 8

Jon Shafer · July 18, 2002, 17:15

We're doomed.

Willem · July 18, 2002, 17:21

Quote:

Originally posted by cbraund
IT'S UP!!!

http://www.firaxis.com/downloads_detail.cfm?file_id=58

Chris

Thanks guy!

Willem · July 18, 2002, 17:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Jaybe

(Willem, he said "GA" for Golden Age, not "GL" for Great Leader)

Ah yes, that makes more sense. And I agree.

ChaotikVisions · July 18, 2002, 17:38

Woo, haven't checked some out much else, but water citys are now most definitly possible. Suppose city graphics will have to change, but it'll be fun for scenarios and other things. Pic included below.

sabrewolf · July 18, 2002, 17:39

Quote:

Originally posted by cbraund
IT'S UP!!!

http://www.firaxis.com/downloads_detail.cfm?file_id=58

Chris

thanks!

damn, i was always checking http://www.civ3.com/patches.cfm ... civ3-page wasn't updated.

[edit] part deleted because of stupid comment... sorry trip... gallows humour [/edit]

Jon Shafer · July 18, 2002, 17:43

Quote:

Originally posted by sabrewolf
trip: well... sh1t happens

... WWI with random opponents... how about germany + england + france vs. russia + usa

Not now, my friend, not now...

CivGeneral · July 18, 2002, 17:48

Quote:

Woo, haven't checked some out much else, but water citys are now most definitly possible. Suppose city graphics will have to change, but it'll be fun for scenarios and other things. Pic included below. -ChaotikVisions

What's Next. Ships attacking cities and capturing them

.

isak · July 18, 2002, 17:51

Well, the chat tomorrow is just going to be sooooo much more interesting now we know that there's no Diplomacy editor......

Otherwise - It's looking great - can't wait to start making the DyP mod compatible with this.

ChaotikVisions · July 18, 2002, 17:53

Civfan01: Heh, the amphibious ability would be quite a bit better.

CivGeneral · July 18, 2002, 17:57

Well. Looks like it is not a true Scenario Editor. It is only 3/4 of a Scenario Editor.

. Now how are we going to change alliances, peace and war with other Civilizations

<- "Me Want Diplomacy Editor" -Mr. Smiliey

sabrewolf · July 18, 2002, 17:57

Quote:

Originally posted by isak
Well, the chat tomorrow is just going to be sooooo much more interesting now we know that there's no Diplomacy editor......

can't believe it's not in.

please ask the firaxians to tell gramphos where to find diplomacy values. i'm sure it's not much more than a few hex-value changing here and there... trouble is, that we can't know it, because we don't have any display for the exact values (only "are polite towards us" and so on).

Jon Shafer · July 18, 2002, 18:02

I can't believe this.

It's not a scenario editor, just a powerful map editor...
You can't make scenarios, just maps with units and cities already there.

NeoStar · July 18, 2002, 18:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Trip
It's not a scenario editor, just a powerful map editor...
You can't make scenarios, just maps with units and cities already there.

Believe it. I never saw anything about scenario scripting on the patch details.

You can still make scenarios, but they are not going to pan out the way they should historically.

Flinx · July 18, 2002, 18:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis

well, I am pretty sure that "renegotiate every 20 turns" will only benefit the human over the AI. The reason is that if you had a lopsided deal with the AI, IT would decide to renegotiate the deal. In other words, there will never be a situation in which you would benefit from "just being quiet" about the deal expiring because the AI will always ask to renegotiate if it doesn't like the deal.

...So last night I loaded up my current game to prove you wrong and (with this sample size of one) found things were not as bad as I was thinking, but there were situations where I was benefiting from being quiet. There were two very noticeable cases. The first was England giving me 50Gpt for a mutual protection pact but on renegotiation would only accept a mutual protection pact if I gave the advance for the Theory of Evolution wonder. The second is trading ivory and spices to the Zulu for gems but on renegotiation the best deal I could get from Zululand was ivory, spices, two advances and 500G for their gems.

So I reloaded my game again, renegotiated the positive outcome deals and kept on playing. In three turns the English asked to renegotiate the mutual protection pact, offering the same as above; I said no. They came back with something far more reasonable two turns later. A few turns after that, the Zulu asked to renegotiate the gems deal but asked for much less and I got them down to ivory, spices and one advance from the previous age. So in this case the AI did eventually renegotiate deals where it wanted more, but it certainly did not do so automatically when the initial 20 turns was up.

I will investigate further (20 turns have almost passed

)

Colwyn · July 18, 2002, 20:08

Limiting the movement of railroads ie 10, as you know unrestricted movement = end of AI's ability to make war on you. ie 10 cannon/artillery decimate all their attacks even if they have tanks = I stop playing at this point/boring. (though we can mod railroads out and have only roads!)

Also hate road/rail sprawl + no terain bonus's should be like CTP ie as per needed only ie mainly connecting cities resources etc. (though railroads gave a bonus there too)

Workers are a pain and a waste of time, public works as per CTP is definetly needed.

I just can's see why the game needs to turn every inch of the planet into railroads and plains. Looks ugly and unreal.

If the above things were done the game would be very good (events and the ai always not building a large enough army later in the game aside)

Palleon · July 18, 2002, 20:09

It's not totally unrealistic. You've just turned Earth into Coruscant. Welcome to the Star Wars universe, the whole world is one big metropolitan sprawl

cbraund · July 18, 2002, 20:18

I liked the CtP public works, but now having played Civ3 I'd never go back to that system, I like the workers.

You can automate them if you're fed up of them.

As for the road/rail sprawl, it's quite realistic really, think of our world lol...

As for railroads, I personally love them the way they are, it allows for a mobile defence...

Chris

MJW · July 18, 2002, 21:08

Yea!

The_Aussie_Lurker · July 18, 2002, 21:19

HI Guys,

I'm afraid that I'm limited to net access at work only, so I'm not going to be able to join in the patch chat tonight!! I was wondering, therefore, if someone could ask a few questions for me, mostly directed at Mike?
Here are the questions:

1) Does Mike envisage making further improvements to the editor in future patches?

2) Would it be possible for him to alter the editor, such that you can make an improvement a prerequisite for building a unit, either in place of, or in conjunction with, existing strategic resource prerequisites?

3) Would it be possible for Mike to remove the hardcoding relating to movement on enemy roads, or general movement on RR's? Also, would it also be possible to remove the hardcoding for the points neccessary to achieve diplomatic victory?

4) Are pooled editor flags for units/Wonders still on Mikes "Wish List"?

5) Does Mike have any plans to add more editor flags for the purpose of modding the game?

Anyway, if someone could ask those questions, I'd be most appreciative

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

Xuenay · July 18, 2002, 22:20

Quote:

It's not a scenario editor, just a powerful map editor...
You can't make scenarios, just maps with units and cities already there.

Well, that didn't take long.

The patch has been out for a few hours, has pretty much all the features everybody has been begging for ever since CivIII was released, and people are already coming up with new complaints and reasons to whine.

Get real folks, this is a map editor, not a HAL-series supercomputer smart enough to fulfill all of your wishes.

Palleon · July 18, 2002, 22:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Xuenay
Get real folks, this is a map editor, not a HAL-series supercomputer smart enough to fulfill all of your wishes.

Then it shouldn't be called a SCENARIO if it can't set teams, missions, or objectives. I agree, it is just a map editor, and the patch did a great job of making a MAP editor. But the hype was that it would let us make scenarios, and it can't do that, so people are a little upset. I think the patch was a great step forward, and hopefully PTW will finally finish up on that. It's a shame we'll have to pay to make scenarios, if PTW even has it, but that's the way it is.

Xuenay · July 18, 2002, 22:29

To make a real complaint, why is the editor so bulky AND unstable (or is this just my comp)?

If the map editor in CivII didn't lag while I was placing out terrain on a 486, neither should the CivIII editor lag while I'm placing out terrain on an 1000 mhz Athlon.

Not to mention that it has been freezing while trying to load maps...

Palleon · July 18, 2002, 22:31

What OS are you running? I'm running a basically comperable computer with 2k, and Civ3 and the editor run great on me, takes about 5 seconds to load up a map.

Xuenay · July 18, 2002, 22:38

Windows ME. If this, too, turns out to be ME's fault, then I'm definitely going to switch to 2K soon .

Colwyn · July 18, 2002, 22:40

My point about the patch is that it did address a lot of things but not allowing us to set a movement rate along railroads is quite a big miss as it really does unbalance the whole game.

(And to be frank it should not have been hard to code in the patch (as roads have this option already)

Once you get railroads its game over for the AI, simple... Being able to move all your units to one point and back again unlimited movement is too much of an advantage for the player, you don't see the AI moving 10 artillery pieces along their railroads to gang up on the player.

Knowing that once you develop railroads there is no competion makes Civ3 unplayable in my opinion. I can do without the editor etc etc as long as I can play a challanging game to the end.

UltraSonix · July 18, 2002, 22:43

i noticed that the new patch was out... really impressed me

just came back to say that Firaxis is probably the best game developer that I know - it's really impressed me that they would work with the community so much to develop the game - from so long ago most of us though it would never have been released to long after it's been finished

cool stuff

Palleon · July 18, 2002, 22:50

ME is a horrible, horrible OS, especially for gaming. Do yourself a favor and get 2k, you'll run everything a lot faster. Run out and buy it today, you'll be amazed how much better everything runs. I still think 2k is the best OS out there, XP is too slow, takes up too much memory, and hardware is still pretty incompatable with it.

Boris Godunov · July 18, 2002, 23:50

Was it advertised as a scenario editor? All they said was "editor." I don't recall them making a big deal about scenarios.

At any rate, I did get my biggest wants (civ placement, minimap, adding units), but am a little disappointed you can't set diplomacy. But most of the changes/additions are VERY welcome.

alva · July 19, 2002, 00:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Colwyn
My point about the patch is that it did address a lot of things but not allowing us to set a movement rate along railroads is quite a big miss as it really does unbalance the whole game.

(And to be frank it should not have been hard to code in the patch (as roads have this option already)

Once you get railroads its game over for the AI, simple... Being able to move all your units to one point and back again unlimited movement is too much of an advantage for the player, you don't see the AI moving 10 artillery pieces along their railroads to gang up on the player.

Knowing that once you develop railroads there is no competion makes Civ3 unplayable in my opinion. I can do without the editor etc etc as long as I can play a challanging game to the end.

Main reason why I never finish a game ( not one under civ3). I like the game very much right up unitk railroads come along. Then it becomes

(and I don't play on chieftain btw

)

Bambul · July 19, 2002, 00:53

It is a pity about railroads. In the middle ages when I have knights and pikemen/musketmen preparation for war is one of the most fun parts of Civ3 for me. Building enough units, finding choke points or creating them, building fortresses, spotting potential threats and arming nearby cities with enough units to protect it for one, two or maybe three turns after war is declared while I get reinforcements in. I could go on the offensive and take out the AI and not have to worry about it, but it's much more fun to pre-empt their attacks at a time when they are usually superior to me in military force.

But come railroads this is all gone. All I have to do is protect my outer cities from first turn Cavalry (and later Modern Armour, but often the game is over by then) attacks and then the rest is taken care of with counterattacks.

If railroads were like CtP 1/2 and gave a 5 or 10 movement bonus rather than infinite movement then we would still have to plan ahead and split our forces, allowing the AI's concentrated attack on one point to be more powerful and more likely to suceed. Currently the only thing that is like this is when you have land holdings on two far away islands and at war with another civ on both. To get reinforcements from one island to another you can either send them by sea (which can take a while) or airlift them (which requires many airports and you have to wait until next turn and even then is limited to a handful of reinforcements a turn).

I would hope that Firaxis would put an option in the editor for road/rail movement bonus. Well, they have it for roads right now, but not rail.